Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheRLeePost. Show TheRLeePost's posts

    Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    I fear my topic here shall be a lightening rod for knee-jerk reactionaries, but it is a subject worthy of deliberation.

    There are varied reasons for prompting such, but the most compelling is likely that which ends up moving people the most, and that is economic survival.  First, let's not forget that less than 24 decades before today men, and women, in New England dared to broach this very subject.  So, I say to those who wish not to even entertain the idea, you are following the precedent set by many a Tory and Loyalist citizen of the Colony of Massachusetts, who thought it folly and madness to think of leaving the British Empire, then the world's wealthiest nation.

    We first must dismiss the modern notion of the secessionist movements in North America, to which we've been exposed.  They've largely consisted of disaffected political groups whose most distinctive rationale for their movement has rested more on social and cultural grounds, and little, if any, on economics.   That isn't to say that social and cultural ideological differences are not important in setting political divisions, but they must be stark and pervasive to bring about major political upheaval for their own sake.

    At the founding of this country, our knowledge of markets and our need to tend them as a people was still in its infancy, as were our expectations of our government as a provider of services.   The collaboration, or union, of the, then British, colonies in America was a necessity to gain independence for each of them, as the British government was not given to relinquishing profitable expansionist endeavors.  And the continued union after winning that independence was largely to provide for a mutual defense against foreign aggression.

    Since that time, massive growth has occurred in the government's economic muscle and its control has moved farther away from the average citizen in each state to a federal government now overseeing 50 states.  It's not unreasonable to believe that such a pervasive role by the federal government was never intended at the time the, then independent, states acceded to a union.  This is not meant to applaud or disapprove of any particular government activity at the federal level, nor suggest a states' rights argument.  It is intended to bring up the subject of size and accountability, though they are not the only subjects to discuss here.

    The U.S. government's fiscal business is enormous.  And yet, the element of fiscal responsibility is not there.  A discussion on size, and how it adversely impacts fiscal responsibility would take more space than I have here; and too, I am not wholly convinced that size is, alone, a culprit. 

    Yet, I do know that the political structure we began with and have evolved into has destined us to our current economic ills.  With the significant percentage of our wealth which we put in the hands of our government, the massive expectations we have for it, and the dependency upon it for protecting our markets from the ills of unfettered capitalism, we are imperiling ourselves by ignoring the methods by which we choose our decision makers.  

    Our electoral processes and legislative structure are ill suited to safely handling such a massive government.  It will take many generations for this nation to collectively assess and be willing to make the changes necessary to safely govern in our age.  Though no political system is perfect, Europe has progressed far ahead of us in this area.  Canada too, is yearning to make changes, and is only 1/9 the population of the U.S.

    There are certainly other reasons which can be cited to justify an independent New England.  Such a nation would be no small occurrence, having what would be the tenth largest population in the EU, the tenth largest in the Western Hemisphere and more populous that 2/3 of the world's sovereign nations.

    If only John and Samuel Adams were here; what would they think?   

    -RLee
    http://therleepost.blogspot.com


    UPDATE - July 19, 2010
    There is very limited traffic, but I am encouraged to see that 30% of poll respondents at the very least think it is an idea worthy of discussion.  Big ideas and changes in life rarely start with much support or even interest. 

    All I could get from the written responses was that everyone is perfectly content to continue the cycle of 'slogan, elect, suffer, gripe, slogan, elect, suffer, gripe'.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from JaySev2010. Show JaySev2010's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    Oh know another founding father larper. Look this is a bad idea because we we would lose economically and the US would lose economically AND militarily. Fragmenting the states would be a dangerous and bad idea in this day and age.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheRLeePost. Show TheRLeePost's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    Oh know another founding father larper. Look this is a bad idea because we we would lose economically and the US would lose economically AND militarily. Fragmenting the states would be a dangerous and bad idea in this day and age.
    Posted by JaySev2010


    Can you give better details to justify your opinion?    It sounds too much like what would have been said by the Governor of the Colony in 1775.

    Economic reasons are the very justification for disentangling ourselves from the rest of the states. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from JaySev2010. Show JaySev2010's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England? : Can you give better details to justify your opinion?    It sounds too much like what would have been said by the Governor of the Colony in 1775. Economic reasons are the very justification for disentangling ourselves from the rest of the states. 
    Posted by TheRLeePost


    You are living in the past buddy. It may be fun to larp the revolution, but trust me, there isn't going to be anything fun about a modern revolution against the US government, or (if a peaceful separation is acheived) anything fun about the aftermath where we are living on a fragmented american continent. You think losing land, resources, and unity with the rest of the country will grow new england? Hardly.

    But more importantly I have no desire to separate. The founders revolted because they lacked representation. We have representation. We have a functioning republic; why destroy that?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheRLeePost. Show TheRLeePost's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England? : You are living in the past buddy. It may be fun to larp the revolution, but trust me, there isn't going to be anything fun about a modern revolution against the US government, or (if a peaceful separation is acheived) anything fun about the aftermath where we are living on a fragmented american continent. You think losing land, resources, and unity with the rest of the country will grow new england? Hardly. But more importantly I have no desire to separate. The founders revolted because they lacked representation. We have representation. We have a functioning republic; why destroy that?
    Posted by JaySev2010



    It would be good if you actually had read my post.  But I suppose that is too much to expect from someone so in love with the term 'larp'.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from JaySev2010. Show JaySev2010's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England? : It would be good if you actually had read my post.  But I suppose that is too much to expect from someone so in love with the term 'larp'.
    Posted by TheRLeePost


    I read your post. I don't agree with your position. Its very simple. Just because you took the time to write a lengthy argument, that doesn't mean people are going to buy it.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheRLeePost. Show TheRLeePost's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England? : I read your post. I don't agree with your position. Its very simple. Just because you took the time to write a lengthy argument, that doesn't mean people are going to buy it.
    Posted by JaySev2010


    Your references and suppositions would indicate that you had not read it.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BobinVa. Show BobinVa's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    I hold, that in contemplation of universal law, and of the Constitution, the Union of these States is perpetual. Perpetuity is implied, if not expressed, in the fundamental law of all national governments. It is safe to assert that no government proper, ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination. Continue to execute all the express provisions of our national Constitution, and the Union will endure forever – it being impossible to destroy it, except by some action not provided for in the instrument itself.

    --Lincoln's First Inaugural Address
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from pymus1. Show pymus1's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    Hey - all I can say is Obama must be doing one crappy job if people are talking about breaking away from the union while others trying to figure out how to boycott and punish our brothers living in other states. What a disgrace. Certainly the first time I am not proud of my country.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from CHlMlCHURRl. Show CHlMlCHURRl's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England? : Your references and suppositions would indicate that you had not read it.
    Posted by TheRLeePost

    You're trying too hard to get people to give you their opinion......i for one believe that it would be a tough sell to anyone to consider an "independent new england" because honestly in this day and age i feel that people are ill-educated in government and politics and don't completely understand what is going on with this country.... 
    However, I DO believe that (especially with the AZ situation) that there will be attempts to secede the union especially if Obama takes his big government and tries to shove it down the states throats....
    This does not mean that an independednt New England would be the right idea but with the situations at hand it seems as if it isn't too far from the future....


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from JaySev2010. Show JaySev2010's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England? : Your references and suppositions would indicate that you had not read it.
    Posted by TheRLeePost


    No, I just read your post and found much of it not worthy of mention or response. And then I gave my reaction to the general question you posed. Just because you make a laughable argument, and I didn't respond to every point, doesn't mean I didn't read the darn thing.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from JaySev2010. Show JaySev2010's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    First, let's not forget that less than 24 decades before today men, and women, in New England dared to broach this very subject. ------------------------------ Lets also not forget that less than 11 decades before, a group of states had the same idea, and looked like idiots after a war that cost more American lives than any other in history. Other problems include: Connecticut is more aligned with NY and NJ and wouldn't play, and we would need Rt 84 and Mystic Pizza. Vermont would immediately secede and join Canada. The new capital being Boston, Maine would revolt and turn off the lobster. Buddy Cianci would stage a coup in RI and join Italy, thereby invoking the Monroe Doctrine NH wouldn't care That would leave a People's Republic of Massachusetts, which is redundant.
    Posted by GreginMeffa


    Great post.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from whatnow3. Show whatnow3's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    And lets not forget, Western Mass hates Eastern Mass.

    There has been an ongoing feud for sometime.  Mainly tax spending, and the fact that Western Mass is ignored.

    They would jump ship and join NY in a heartbeat.

    So we are left with central and eastern mass. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from schadenfreude99. Show schadenfreude99's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    You guys are just Larping now.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from JaySev2010. Show JaySev2010's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    You guys are just Larping now.
    Posted by schadenfreude99


    Well the term fits. Guys that want to live like the founders or be the founders, or think there is a serious comparison between the american revolution and what is going on now, are living in a fantasy. They are larping. They are like the civil war reinactors or even like the society for creative anachronisms. Just look at the OPs writing style alone. It is a terribly self concious attempt to adopt the tenor of the founding fathers. Its rubbish basically.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from JaySev2010. Show JaySev2010's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England? : I can't find the verb, to larp, in any form, in the English language.  Help me out.  Is it French - Tu larpez?
    Posted by GreginMeffa


    Larp stands for Live Action Role Play. It is used to describe people who go into the woods, pretend to be elves and wizards and talk in quasi-English accent. It is slang, I don't know if its made it into the dictionary yet. Its also been adopted by the martial arts community to describe people who train like it is 16th century Japan, but don't have the guts to do any real full contact training or fighting. Essentially in conversations like this, it is just a way of saying the person is getting lost in the fantasy and ignoring the facts on the ground.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from schadenfreude99. Show schadenfreude99's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England? : Larp stands for Live Action Role Play. It is used to describe people who go into the woods, pretend to be elves and wizards and talk in quasi-English accent. It is slang, I don't know if its made it into the dictionary yet. Its also been adopted by the martial arts community to describe people who train like it is 16th century Japan, but don't have the guts to do any real full contact training or fighting. Essentially in conversations like this, it is just a way of saying the person is getting lost in the fantasy and ignoring the facts on the ground.
    Posted by JaySev2010


    Its the 1st time i've heard it, and I must admit its pretty funny.  I have a second cousin who is into the Medieval Fair stuff.  Is that Larping?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from JaySev2010. Show JaySev2010's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England? : Its the 1st time i've heard it, and I must admit its pretty funny.  I have a second cousin who is into the Medieval Fair stuff.  Is that Larping?
    Posted by schadenfreude99


    I would probably call that larping. But like I said it originally refreed to the NERO and Creative Anachronism crowd who went into the woods and fought with fake swords, pretending to be elves and wizards. But now the term really just is a broad insult for anyone who employs that kind of fantasy thinking into any aspect of their life. At least the NERO and SCA folk know they are engaging in fantasy. These revolutionary larpers are trying to be serious. Which is sad and pathetic.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheRLeePost. Show TheRLeePost's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    I'm wanting people to think on the problems which were posed in the post.  I've seen no one address those concerns. 

    But, thank you for your thoughts.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from schadenfreude99. Show schadenfreude99's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England? : BAck in the 70's my friends and I dropped acid (which we did a LOT) and tried to rediscover the childhood concept of "play".  We went to the woods (our favorite place to trip) and tried to "play", Lord of the Rings.  It didn't work
    Posted by GreginMeffa



    I occasionally see some of those "too many hits of acid" dudes wandering the Fells aimlessly.  Luckily you got out.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheRLeePost. Show TheRLeePost's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England? : No, I just read your post and found much of it not worthy of mention or response. And then I gave my reaction to the general question you posed. Just because you make a laughable argument, and I didn't respond to every point, doesn't mean I didn't read the darn thing.
    Posted by JaySev2010


    As I stated upfront, "I fear my topic here shall be a lightening rod for knee-jerk reactionaries," and since you are so fond of childish acronyms I'll originate one just for you, KJR. 

    You've failed to address the problems framed in the post, instead choosing to comfort yourself in the bosom of popularly applauded ridicule that requires no great intellect.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from lrecliner. Show lrecliner's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    I'm wanting people to think on the problems which were posed in the post.  I've seen no one address those concerns.  But, thank you for your thoughts.
    Posted by TheRLeePost


    That's because you sir, are a larper
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from easydoesit2. Show easydoesit2's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    I have never considered an Independent New England.  I am a US Citizen and like it.  But I have often wondered seriously, how it would work out if New England merged into one large state. I wonder what the effects would be and if any of them would be beneficial. Obviously, losing 10 Senators would be a downside, but a singular New England state would be huge in population, wealth, natural resources, etc., etc., etc.  Anyone care to comment?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    First, let's not forget that less than 24 decades before today men, and women, in New England dared to broach this very subject. ------------------------------ Lets also not forget that less than 11 decades before, a group of states had the same idea, and looked like idiots after a war that cost more American lives than any other in history. Other problems include: Connecticut is more aligned with NY and NJ and wouldn't play, and we would need Rt 84 and Mystic Pizza. Vermont would immediately secede and join Canada. The new capital being Boston, Maine would revolt and turn off the lobster. Buddy Cianci would stage a coup in RI and join Italy, thereby invoking the Monroe Doctrine NH wouldn't care That would leave a People's Republic of Massachusetts, which is redundant.
    Posted by GreginMeffa

    I generally agree, but NH wouldn't go along with anything that gave Boston too much say, hence the whole purpose of NH as the sane alternative.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?

    In Response to Re: Have New Englanders Considered an Independent New England?:
    I have never considered an Independent New England.  I am a US Citizen and like it.  But I have often wondered seriously, how it would work out if New England merged into one large state. I wonder what the effects would be and if any of them would be beneficial. Obviously, losing 10 Senators would be a downside, but a singular New England state would be huge in population, wealth, natural resources, etc., etc., etc.  Anyone care to comment?
    Posted by easydoesit2

    The New England states are too diverse to ever consolidate.  We all needs options when we decide we can't live in Mass anymore.

     
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