House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeutralObserver. Show NeutralObserver's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : And he wonders why I won't bother dealing with him anymore.
    Posted by hawkeye01[/QUOTE]

    Wow hawkarse you're one intelligent guy. Here's your last 4 posts:

    "You're confused! "  (Did I mistate your position or just blow it out of the water?)

    I don't bother with people who resort to lies and insults.
    (Care to elaborate on the former and I only followed your lead on the latter)

    Blah. Blah. Blah. (No comment necessary, you can speak for yourself)

    And he wonders why I won't bother dealing with him anymore.
    (Tough when facts slap you in the face isn't it)
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : jmel, Brat13 agrees with my observation. Since we're dealing with illegals here there are not too many hard facts to point to, not too many illegals are willing to fill out questionares. Most of the evidence in anecdotal. As I've said and Brat13 has independently corroborated, illegals get the jobs by working cheaper, longer and sometimes better than Americans. Illegals will work overtime for straight pay, work holidays, double shifts etc. and not complain, they can't, they're illegal. Who can they complain to without getting deported? Americans know their rights and would file a complaint with anyone or any agency and sue your a $$. Illegals are paid off the books most of the time so the boss doesn't have to pay any taxes which can run as high as 60-70% per employee. If an American tries to file his IRS return and finds out you haven't paid taxes for him he's going to sue. As I believe and Brat13 also, Americans always want to get ahead. If there's another job that pays better and has better benefits he'll bolt in a second, it's the American way. Illegals can't do that. They would have to find a job off the books and hope the boss is at least honest enough to pay them.
    Posted by NeutralObserver[/QUOTE]

    A point of clarification... I NEVER said "better or longer". I have seen their carpentry skills in building a house and the American workers are always going over what they do. I have also see them do landscaping and they do bust their humps and do generally a good job (menial physical labor Vs skilled?).
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeutralObserver. Show NeutralObserver's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : A point of clarification... I NEVER said "better or longer". I have seen their carpentry skills in building a house and the American workers are always going over what they do. I have also see them do landscaping and they do bust their humps and do generally a good job (menial physical labor Vs skilled?).
    Posted by brat13[/QUOTE]
     I should have been clearer myself. I didn't mean to take you out of context, apologies.
    I said "sometimes better" not always.
    I took your  comment "...the company brought in illegals or H1B's at 40% the cost." to mean they can do the same level of work for a company at a fraction of the costs.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : There is a catch 22 in that if we eliminate cheap labor many indusrtries would fail or just send production to where the cheap labor is, eliminating that job for everyone forever. The costs of many services we use would skyrocket. Even if you get a legal immigrant to do the work they will now be on the payroll with all the taxes and benefits associated with that, as much as 70% more costs. They would now be elligible for workmens comp, unemployment insurance etc. As for the families, phone in a tip to INS and let them handle it.
    Posted by NeutralObserver[/QUOTE]

    That is a strawman argument pushed by business. The fact is that many manufacturers are bring their operations back to the US because of the theft etc. in other countries.

    As an example, I heard this argument when the Acushnet Company moved operations from New Bedford to China. They are Titleist and Cobra ball and club manufacturers. When they moved they (management) said it was to be more competitive in their pricing. After moving to China and laying off @10,000 American workers, the price of their golf gear has not gone down but up. The only difference is the management have taken millions more in salary and bonus. They have also cried to the FBI on several occasions to investigate the black market in China that is stealing their clubs. This is why I will NEVER buy Titleist, Cobra or Footjoy products.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It :  I should have been clearer myself. I didn't mean to take you out of context, apologies. I said "sometimes better" not always. I took your  comment "...the company brought in illegals or H1B's at 40% the cost." to mean they can do the same level of work for a company at a fraction of the costs.
    Posted by NeutralObserver[/QUOTE]

    Actually, contrary to many opinions on this board, the skill level is inferior. In IT, where I have vast experience, the foreign workers are lower educated and less skilled. The "advanced" degrees they have are not equal to a HS education in the US or a good trade school.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeutralObserver. Show NeutralObserver's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : That is a strawman argument pushed by business. The fact is that many manufacturers are bring their operations back to the US because of the theft etc. in other countries. As an example, I heard this argument when the Acushnet Company moved operations from New Bedford to China. They are Titleist and Cobra ball and club manufacturers. When they moved they (management) said it was to be more competitive in their pricing. After moving to China and laying off @10,000 American workers, the price of their golf gear has not gone down but up. The only difference is the management have taken millions more in salary and bonus. They have also cried to the FBI on several occasions to investigate the black market in China that is stealing their clubs. This is why I will NEVER buy Titleist, Cobra or Footjoy products.
    Posted by brat13[/QUOTE]

    I've heard the same and don't (never did) use the stuff either unless I found a Titleist ball in the woods. I use Ping when I can afford to. I think they're still out of AZ.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from hawkeye01. Show hawkeye01's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : Wow hawkarse you're one intelligent guy. Here's your last 4 posts: "You're confused! "  (Did I mistate your position or just blow it out of the water?) I don't bother with people who resort to lies and insults. (Care to elaborate on the former and I only followed your lead on the latter) Blah. Blah. Blah. (No comment necessary, you can speak for yourself) And he wonders why I won't bother dealing with him anymore. (Tough when facts slap you in the face isn't it)
    Posted by NeutralObserver[/QUOTE]

    Thanks for proving my point. Take care.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeutralObserver. Show NeutralObserver's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : Actually, contrary to many opinions on this board, the skill level is inferior. In IT, where I have vast experience, the foreign workers are lower educated and less skilled. The "advanced" degrees they have are not equal to a HS education in the US or a good trade school.
    Posted by brat13[/QUOTE]

    I'm also in the IT field and would say, like all other employees, it's a mixed bag. Some are really good, some inferior, most can get up to speed as an American. The worst is trying to outsource work overseas. The communication problems, QA, QC are all headaches. I pay more for workers here to avoid the problems rather than trying to save a few bucks.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : I'm also in the IT field and would say, like all other employees, it's a mixed bag. Some are really good, some inferior, most can get up to speed as an American. The worst is trying to outsource work overseas. The communication problems, QA, QC are all headaches. I pay more for workers here to avoid the problems rather than trying to save a few bucks.
    Posted by NeutralObserver[/QUOTE]

    I tried to work with a US company that off shored to Bangalore and it was a living heck for me. I told them to bring all work back in country or they lose the deal. He threatened to sue me and I laughed at him. He then called me a racist. I moved the work to another company and it was done on time and on budget.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeutralObserver. Show NeutralObserver's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : I tried to work with a US company that off shored to Bangalore and it was a living heck for me. I told them to bring all work back in country or they lose the deal. He threatened to sue me and I laughed at him. He then called me a racist. I moved the work to another company and it was done on time and on budget.
    Posted by brat13[/QUOTE]

    The other problem is standards. My company documents all changes to code, any changes to the specs and timelines as well as documentation for the deliverable. Overseas companies rarely do any of this. I liken it to a bowl of spaghetti, it takes as long to unravel as it would have to do it right the first time. Never again.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from macnh1. Show macnh1's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : Then please propose how to reform immigration with a plan that doesn't grant a path to citizenship, and then describe how we as a nation deal with the illegals in country.  No give them a bus/plane ticket home nonsense, a real plan for how we forcefully deport anywhere from 12 to 20 million people to various countries because we aren't just talking about Mexicans. 
    Posted by DamainAllen[/QUOTE]

    If they can get here easily, they can't work, they can't get welfare and they can't get housing, then they leave on their own.....we need to enforce our laws.
     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeutralObserver. Show NeutralObserver's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : As expected,.......zero factual data, no link, plenty of non-sensical, idealogical BS. Contractors CANNOT hire legal citzens due to the FACT that illegals come in and take every job.  They can`t win bids, they can`t make money, and the result is shoddy workmanship.  My builder is out of business because his competition hires all illegals for short money.  why is this hard for you to understand when we (normal, informed people) are seeing it every day and it`s destroying America?
    Posted by jmel[/QUOTE]

    Did you even bother to read my posts or you just want to scream some idealogical baloney.
    That's exactly what I've said in my posts, illegals are willing to do the job for less money. My first post was in response:
    "What kinds of jobs are majority of illegals doing?"
    Posted by hawkeye01

    I said they'll do any job for a fraction of the money and undercut Americans.
    Read the posts before you start spouting off idiot.
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from hawkeye01. Show hawkeye01's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : You said  (and I quote) "Illegals are only doing the jobs that Americans DON`T WANT TO DO""  That`s what you said. And,.........you used no facts and no data.  You are spewing EXACTLY what the Left does and wants you to believe you freakin` dope.  Americans want EVERY job.  Do you live on earth? There wouldn`t be any jobs for "less money" stupid,.....if there were no illegals.  there would also be no crappy workmanship, no contractors out of business, and no boobs like you ranting about things you know nothing about. No wonder hawk-eye bailed from talking to you.  You can`t have a constructive conversation with a nit-wit.
    Posted by jmel[/QUOTE]

    I have friends in the trade business. My dad was in the trade business. THAT is why/how I knew he was full of shite. US citizens do want trade jobs despite what Mr. "Neutral" says. He's basing things on talking points versus real people. I knew he was full of it when he said that American's don't want to work trade jobs if there are no benefits. Ha....MOST trade companies don't offer benefits other than salary. Most are too small to afford giving health insurance etc. to their employees. Does he think these small outfits have 401K plans for their employees???
    Who does he think were doing these jobs BEFORE illegals started undercutting them???
    Trying to talk with people like him is like banging your head against the wall.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeutralObserver. Show NeutralObserver's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : You said  (and I quote) "Illegals are only doing the jobs that Americans DON`T WANT TO DO""  That`s what you said. And,.........you used no facts and no data.  You are spewing EXACTLY what the Left does and wants you to believe you freakin` dope.  Americans want EVERY job.  Do you live on earth? There wouldn`t be any jobs for "less money" stupid,.....if there were no illegals.  there would also be no crappy workmanship, no contractors out of business, and no boobs like you ranting about things you know nothing about. No wonder hawk-eye bailed from talking to you.  You can`t have a constructive conversation with a nit-wit.
    Posted by jmel[/QUOTE]

    Only a liar would deliberately misquote someone.

    "Any job that Americans don't/won't/can't do." is what I said.

    From ABC news:
    "The ongoing debate over illegal immigration in the U.S. is having some strange and unintended consequences in the West, where farmers facing acres of unpicked crops are replacing immigrants with inmates. In Colorado, which last year passed some of the strictest immigration laws in the country, a new program aims to stem a severe labor shortage by using prisoners to work fields once farmed by migrant workers. In Arizona and Idaho, farmers are begging for the expansion of existing prison labor programs as states begin to target employers who hire illegal immigrants. ...agricultural labor shortages will become increasingly common, according to Austin Perez of the American Farm Bureau. The agricultural workforce has decreased by 10 % over the last 5 years, Perez said"

    If there are so many people looking for work why can't farms hire them?


    From a FOX news report:
    Cheap, Illegal Labor Comes at Some Cost


    "Women from the poorest corners of the world come to work in the city as nannies and housemaids. Nannies and other laborers work hard at a wage that has many businesses openly employing illegal immigrants , including contractor Charlie D'Agostino."People aren't going to pay more for an American than a Mexican, just because they're American."


    "I'm not opposed to bringing people into this country for the 'jobs no American will take,' " said Rep. Tom Tancredo R-CO

    (This from the most ardent illegal alien congressman)

    ""If illegal immigration ended tomorrow, it's questionable whether the unemployed will rush out to pick lettuce and, if they do, what the cost will be at the market.

    "I just don't see that and I think using agricultural workers is a pretty good example of an industry or a whole classification of jobs that American workers aren't lining up to take," said Farrell Quinlan of the Arizona Chamber of Commerce."

    Is that enough references for you? Idiot
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeutralObserver. Show NeutralObserver's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    President Bush himself said last March(2007), the United States needs a temporary guest-worker program that would "match willing foreign workers with willing American employers to fill jobs that Americans will not do."
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeutralObserver. Show NeutralObserver's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    Ever take a taxi in a big city? How many times do you have an imigrant driver versus  an American?
     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from hawkeye01. Show hawkeye01's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : A complete idealogue.  Dreaming of how the world should be (in his little, imaginary, fanatsy-world).......Sigh! My close friend owns his own plastering company.  At one point he had 6 trucks,......now, none.  He filed for bankruptcy, his kids are suffering, retirement gone.  He would bid jobs as low as he could using American licensed workers and lose by thousands of dollars to the creeps using all illegals.  He could tell you about the floor guys, painters, framers, HVAC guys,........they`re all out of work. People like neutered-observer don`t think on their own,.....they have no exposure to the real world,........they only believe what Olberman and Maddow tell them.
    Posted by jmel[/QUOTE]

    I love how he claims the jobs American's will not do are jobs like carpentry, masonry, electrical, plumbing, in other words TRADE jobs. And how funny that he quotes Bush. I'm quite certain Bush wasn't referring to trade jobs.
    Then he tries to make the argument about taxi drivers. Yup, no American's want to drive cabs....not at all. Except for the ones I seem to always get when I cab it in Boston. He plays on these sterotypes which is just plain ignorant.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeutralObserver. Show NeutralObserver's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    Jmel wrote: "news articles...are not FACTS!!!"
    Where do you get your FACTS!!!, your own pathetic opinion of how the world should be and how life is so unfair to you and how people should feel sorry for you.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeutralObserver. Show NeutralObserver's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It : I love how he claims the jobs American's will not do are jobs like carpentry, masonry, electrical, plumbing, in other words TRADE jobs. And how funny that he quotes Bush. I'm quite certain Bush wasn't referring to trade jobs. Then he tries to make the argument about taxi drivers. Yup, no American's want to drive cabs....not at all. Except for the ones I seem to always get when I cab it in Boston. He plays on these sterotypes which is just plain ignorant.
    Posted by hawkeye01[/QUOTE]

    A study by the Center for Immigration Studies used 2005-07 data to look at different occupations. Four had a majority of immigrants in them: plasterers and stucco masons (skilled), agricultural graders and sorters (unskilled), personal appliance workers (don't know), and tailors and dressmakers (skilled).
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from hawkeye01. Show hawkeye01's posts

    Re: House introducing Amnesty Bill for Illegal Immigrants - Time to Fight It

    That's great what does that have to do with your original argument? I have no doubt they are in those trades. Never said they weren't. What I have been saying all along is that Americans DO want jobs in the trades. You have been saying American's can't/won't/don't want those types of jobs. You are wrong. Deal with it.
     

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