Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeisLIfe. Show LifeisLIfe's posts

    Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    Immigration Reform and the Catholic Church

     

    By Donald Kerwin
    Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc.
    Article Image

    Related Articles:

    Senate Debate Resumes and DHS Boosts Internal Enforcement (May 2006 Policy Beat)

    From Horseback to High-Tech: US Border Enforcement

    Central Americans and Asylum Policy in the Reagan Era

    The Changing Face of the Gulf Coast: Immigration to Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama

    IRCA: Lessons of the Last US Legalization Program

    Would you like to see more articles on this topic?
    Yes No

    Please give us your feedback on this article. You may include your name and email address. (max 250 characters)



    May 2006

    Cardinal Roger Mahony electrified the US immigration reform debate by announcing on March 1, 2006 (Ash Wednesday), that he would instruct archdiocesan priests and lay Catholics to ignore provisions in a House-passed “enforcement only” bill (H.R. 4437) — were they to pass — that would make it a crime to assist unauthorized immigrants.

    Since then, the Catholic Church has played a central role in the immigrant-led protests that have swept the country. The church has encouraged parishioners to participate in the protests, offered bishops and priests as speakers, and served as an interlocutor for its newcomer members before Congress and in other public forums.

    The Catholic Church occupies the center of the US debate on immigration, and not by accident. In February 2003, a time when the attacks of September 11 had pushed immigration off the national agenda, bishops in the United States and Mexico released Strangers No Longer: Together on a Journey of Hope, a pastoral statement that called for a comprehensive approach to immigration reform.

    Strangers No Longer built on themes established in other pastoral statements by US bishops (One Family Under God in 1995 and Unity in Diversity in 2000), annual statements by the Holy Father on migration, and a long history of Catholic teaching documents. The US bishops have conducted extensive rollout of these documents through public gatherings, within the relevant church structures, and to lay Catholics, in response to what it sees as increasingly harsh anti-immigrant rhetoric and legislation.

    In May 2005, US bishops kicked off a national campaign, “Justice for Immigrants, A Journey of Hope” (JFI). The campaign supports increasing development in immigrant-sending countries; allowing necessary, unauthorized workers to earn the right to remain (permanently) through their labor, good moral character, and payment of a fine (a proportional punishment); and expanding avenues for employment- and family-based immigration.

    So far, nearly 80 dioceses have initiated local JFI campaigns to educate Catholics and the public on migration issues and to engage policymakers on the local, state, and national levels. These campaigns attempt to reach directly into parishes — the most basic unit of the Catholic Church where believers gather at least weekly — and, in many cases, have fed directly into local rallies.

    In addition, dozens of bishops, national Catholic agencies, and religious communities have mobilized their communities in support of the JFI campaign through pro-immigrant statements. The JFI campaign has been explicitly linked to the Catholic Campaign Against Global Poverty which — through overseas development programs and advocacy on foreign aid, trade, and debt relief — seeks to alleviate the conditions that force many people to migrate.

    The Catholic Church and Immigration

    Why does the Catholic Church care so much about US immigration reform? The explanation lies in the church's view of itself as a pilgrim people in a pilgrim church. It sees the Holy Family — in their flight to Egypt — as the archetypal refugee family. Migrants evoke its own history, including the biblical exodus and exile, the itinerant ministry of Jesus, and its 2,000-year missionary tradition. The stranger is welcomed as a Gospel imperative.

    In Strangers No Longer, the church states that people have the right not to migrate; that is, they should be able to live freely in their countries of birth. However, when this is impossible, whether due to extreme poverty or persecution, the church says they have a right to migrate, and nations have a duty to receive them.

    Two fundamental strands of the church's mission — protecting the dignity of all and gathering into one God's scattered children — come together in its ministry to migrants and newcomers. In effect, the church teaches that all people are "brothers and sisters" and that immigration status does not change this fact. Likewise, it offers its Catholic Charities programs, legal offices, community organizing grants, and refugee resettlement services to all vulnerable migrants and newcomers, regardless of their religious beliefs.

    Historical Perspective

    As articulated in a recent Catholic Charities policy paper, the church sees parallels between the last great wave of immigrants to the United States, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and the current wave:
    Like immigrants now, newcomers in the late 19th and early 20th centuries came from different countries than their predecessors. Harsh, well-organized movements portrayed them as a threat to the nation's security, to law-abiding citizens and to US workers. Restrictionists accused Catholics of being unassimilable due to their faith, just as some vilify Muslim-Americans today. The vast wealth created by economic innovation coexisted with gross poverty. Newcomers suffered from low wages and dangerous working conditions. Many families split apart and dissolved.
    By 1920, 75 percent of US Catholics were immigrants, with recent newcomers primarily coming from Southern and Eastern Europe. In response to their needs, the church created or significantly expanded all of its defining institutions, including parishes, schools, charities, hospitals, mutual aid societies, religious communities, and fraternal and sororal groups. For these Catholics, the church tried to offer an array of educational, medical, social service, and social institutions that paralleled those of the larger society.

    Although reliable statistics have not been collected on the number of foreign-born Catholics today, it has been estimated that in excess of 40 percent of newly arriving immigrants are Catholic.

    While active in the immigration reform movement, the church has also struggled to adapt its core institutions to the needs of today's immigrant Catholics. As an example, Catholic Charities agencies represent the nation's largest charitable social service network. Based on the needs of newcomers, this network has rapidly transformed into both a social service and a legal network, with 159 agencies now providing legal services to low-income newcomers.

    Since 1975, the US bishops' conference — through its Migration and Refugee Services (MRS) division — has resettled nearly 900,000 refugees in dioceses throughout the country. The Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc. (CLINIC) supports a national network of Catholic Charities and diocesan legal programs that serve nearly 400,000 immigrants per year. These programs help low-wage newcomers secure work authorization, reunify with family members, become US citizens, and gain protection from persecution.

    Both networks serve particularly vulnerable newcomers, such as torture survivors, detained immigrants, victims of human trafficking and, of course, the unauthorized. Beyond immigration-specific agencies like MRS and CLINIC, the church extends all of its development, social service, community organizing, and pastoral ministries to migrants and newcomers.

    Church Position on Migration Policy

    The Catholic Church in the United States does not support open borders, illegal immigration, or an “amnesty” that would grant legal status to all unauthorized immigrants. It believes nations have a legitimate responsibility to promote the common good by denying admission to certain migrants and by regulating the flow of all those who are seeking to enter.

    However, the church sees the current US immigration system — while generous in many respects — as badly in need of reform. It has been particularly offended by hundreds of deaths along the US-Mexico border; the growth of human smuggling rings; the disconnect between US labor needs, trade policies, and immigration admission levels; and decades-long delays in some family reunification categories.

    The church does not believe that criminal prosecution and deportation of unauthorized immigrants offer a viable, much less a humane, approach to the problem. As the church is quick to highlight, many unauthorized immigrants live in “mixed-status” families and represent five percent of the US workforce.

    Doing nothing, the church believes, would facilitate the growth of a population of second-class noncitizens with limited rights, few prospects, or security.

    As the US bishops stated in 1986, the year the US Congress passed the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA), "It is against the common good and unacceptable to have a double society, one visible with rights and one invisible without rights — a voiceless underground of undocumented persons." IRCA made it illegal for employers to hire unauthorized immigrants, increased enforcement, and granted amnesty to unauthorized immigrants who met certain criteria. After IRCA passed, the US bishops mobilized the country's largest network of "qualified designated entities" — voluntary and community organizations that had permission from the Immigration and Naturalization Service to help unauthorized immigrants fill out adjustment-of-status applications.

    To fix the current system, US bishops support a comprehensive approach. They believe "enforcement only" will exacerbate the current crisis. As evidence, they cite an increase in border control funding between 1993 and 2006 (from $361 million to $1.8 billion) that has been accompanied by roughly a tripling of the country's unauthorized population, from 3.9 to 12 million people.

    Looking Ahead

    As a result of its pro-immigrant stand on immigration reform, the church has been accused of betraying the United States, violating its tax-exempt status, and prospecting for new (immigrant) members. Above all, it has been criticized for inserting itself in a political issue on which some say it has little expertise and can make no particular contribution.

    Yet many Catholics think the church's reverence for immigrants as human beings uniquely qualifies it to help the nation understand "what is just" for them. It believes a just immigration system would allow immigrants to realize their basic aspirations and, in doing so, would serve the good of all Americans.

    The full membership of newcomers will not happen overnight, and it will not be accomplished solely by immigration reform legislation. Ultimately, the integration process requires not just political, social, and economic opportunity, but a sense of shared community and values. The church — through its JFI campaign and many ministries — plans to devote itself to this long-term goal, well after immigration reform legislation passes.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from schadenfreude99. Show schadenfreude99's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    Yeah....Take that Oscar!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeisLIfe. Show LifeisLIfe's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    Yeah....Take that Oscar!
    Posted by schadenfreude99


    My point is there isn't the false choice he presented to readers. What he said is like saying "you either like vanilla or you like chocolate, there is no other option"
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from OscarBozachT00. Show OscarBozachT00's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    I just proves there are as many idiots in the Catholic Church as anyone place else.

    Without enforcment only, you never solve the problem.  Some are too stupid to realize that fact.  Others want the country destroyed and thus encourage it.

    But not a single person in America who understands the problem and loves this country is for "comprehensive immigration reform"... not one.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeisLIfe. Show LifeisLIfe's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    I just proves there are as many idiots in the Catholic Church as anyone place else. Without enforcment only, you never solve the problem.  Some are too stupid to realize that fact.  Others want the country destroyed and thus encourage it. But not a single person in America who understands the problem and loves this country is for "comprehensive immigration reform"... not one.
    Posted by OscarBozachT00


    Then you are against Christ, and not filled with God's love.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from OscarBozachT00. Show OscarBozachT00's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : Then you are against Christ, and not filled with God's love.
    Posted by LifeisLIfe


    Then Cardinal Roger Mahony is also against Christ.  Because if he was filled with God's love, his house would be filled with 500 illegal immigrants.  And his cupboards would be bare.   And yet he does neither.

    For shame... Cardinal Mahoney passes the burden on everyone else and takes none himself.  Typical liberal Democrat and a world-class hypocrite.

    Remember in November.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeisLIfe. Show LifeisLIfe's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : Then Cardinal Roger Mahony is also against Christ.  Because if he was filled with God's love, his house would be filled with 500 illegal immigrants.  And his cupboards would be bare.   And yet he does neither. For shame... Cardinal Mahoney passes the burden on everyone else and takes none himself.  Typical liberal Democrat and a world-class hypocrite. Remember in November.
    Posted by OscarBozachT00


    I do not know enough about cardinal mahoney to discuss that point, but it is a separate matter entirely. So because other people out there are behaving imperfectly in the eyes of God, we should be able to mistreat illegals and break up families. How about dealiing with the specific point I made, instead of relying on your normal anti liberal rhetoric. I am not a dem and I am not a liberal. So step up the plate and make an actual argument here. Do you really think Jesus would support breaking up families and deporting people who have lived here their entire lives. Do you really think that?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from OscarBozachT00. Show OscarBozachT00's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : I do not know enough about cardinal mahoney to discuss that point, but it is a separate matter entirely. So because other people out there are behaving imperfectly in the eyes of God, we should be able to mistreat illegals and break up families. How about dealiing with the specific point I made, instead of relying on your normal anti liberal rhetoric. I am not a dem and I am not a liberal. So step up the plate and make an actual argument here. Do you really think Jesus would support breaking up families and deporting people who have lived here their entire lives. Do you really think that?
    Posted by LifeisLIfe


    LifeisLife, how many illegal aliens live in your house?  How many do you feed in your dining room nightly?   As a leading proponent of illegal aliens, I have no doubt that you put all your money where your mouth is.

    How many illegal alien children do you send to college each year?  I'm sure many.  Thank God for Christians like you and Cardinal Mahoney ... two houses full of illegal aliens and spending every last penny they have to feed the newcomers.

    What a welcome wagon!

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeisLIfe. Show LifeisLIfe's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : LifeisLife, how many illegal aliens live in your house?  How many do you feed in your dining room nightly?   As a leading proponent of illegal aliens, I have no doubt that you put all your money where your mouth is. How many illegal alien children do you send to college each year?  I'm sure many.  Thank God for Christians like you and Cardinal Mahoney ... two houses full of illegal aliens and spending every last penny they have to feed the newcomers. What a welcome wagon!
    Posted by OscarBozachT00


    I give what money I can to this cause, and I am routinely volunteering for outreach programs to help assist legal and illegal aliens. I have given thousands of dollars personally to illegal immigrants. If I had money to send others to college I would do so, but I don't make alot of money. I take what Jesus said very seriously, and I act on it. Am I perfect? No. I fall short like everyone else, but I try real hard to do good works and to help ease the suffering in this world.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from OscarBozachT00. Show OscarBozachT00's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : I give what money I can to this cause, and I am routinely volunteering for outreach programs to help assist legal and illegal aliens. I have given thousands of dollars personally to illegal immigrants. If I had money to send others to college I would do so, but I don't make alot of money. I take what Jesus said very seriously, and I act on it. Am I perfect? No. I fall short like everyone else, but I try real hard to do good works and to help ease the suffering in this world.
    Posted by LifeisLIfe


    Well... I recommend that you invite 20-30 illegal immigrants into your house.   Pitch tents... empty your bank account... and within 5 years you will lose your house and savings.  Then you will understand the impact of your ideals on others.   

    God would be pleased that you destroyed your life so others can have a roof.  If you recommend this approach to all your family ... you will truely be blessed.

    By the way... when you vote for Democrats you vote for unlimited abortion.  Tisk tisk... God's is no longer happy with you.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeisLIfe. Show LifeisLIfe's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : Well... I recommend that you invite 20-30 illegal immigrants into your house.   Pitch tents... empty your bank account... and within 5 years you will lose your house and savings.  Then you will understand the impact of your ideals on others.    God would be pleased that you destroyed your life so others can have a roof.  If you recommend this approach to all your family ... you will truely be blessed. By the way... when you vote for Democrats you vote for unlimited abortion.  Tisk tisk... God's is no longer happy with you.
    Posted by OscarBozachT00


    Again, christianity isn't just about abortion. Frankly both parties fail on the life issue. The republicans are pro death penalty (not exactly a Christian stance) and the Democrats are pro abortion (also not a Christian stance). This year I will vote democrat, because the Republicans are seriously misguided on Immigration.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from OscarBozachT00. Show OscarBozachT00's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : Again, christianity isn't just about abortion. Frankly both parties fail on the life issue. The republicans are pro death penalty (not exactly a Christian stance) and the Democrats are pro abortion (also not a Christian stance). This year I will vote democrat, because the Republicans are seriously misguided on Immigration.
    Posted by LifeisLIfe


    So on your logic... the hundred or so death penalty cases each year are equal to 40 million babies dying.  You are no Christian ... you are a fraud.

    But we knew that already ... paid blogger.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from fractals. Show fractals's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : So on your logic... the hundred or so death penalty cases each year are equal to 40 million babies dying.  You are no Christian ... you are a fraud. But we knew that already ... paid blogger.
    Posted by OscarBozachT00


    Ah the old argument of quantity. It seems oscar you have devalued life to such an extent that only the number of souls lost matters.

    How very Stalin of you...
    "One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic."
    Joseph Stalin
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeisLIfe. Show LifeisLIfe's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : So on your logic... the hundred or so death penalty cases each year are equal to 40 million babies dying.  You are no Christian ... you are a fraud. But we knew that already ... paid blogger.
    Posted by OscarBozachT00


    Stop calling me a paid blogger. I am not saying they are numerically equal. But I am saying that both parties fail to be good Christians. It isn't just on the issue of capital punishment, Republicans fail on poverty, immigration, and war.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeisLIfe. Show LifeisLIfe's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : You are a paid blogger ... that is why so few respond to your posts.  It is obvious to everyone.
    Posted by OscarBozachT00


    I am not a paid blogger. I just like posting my views here. Maybe your the paid blogger?

    Instead of attacking me, why don't you just respond to my arguments.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from shumirules. Show shumirules's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : I am not a paid blogger. I just like posting my views here. Maybe your the paid blogger? Instead of attacking me, why don't you just respond to my arguments.
    Posted by LifeisLIfe


    Life since you seem to like the catholic view on this issue so much I have to ask.

    Should the USA also do what the Catholic church says on abortion.

    On birth control?

    MMMMMMMMMMMMMM

    Or do you just pick and choose what you want to argee with the catholic church on, I am just saying are you 100% behind the catholic church?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeisLIfe. Show LifeisLIfe's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : Life since you seem to like the catholic view on this issue so much I have to ask. Should the USA also do what the Catholic church says on abortion. On birth control? MMMMMMMMMMMMMM Or do you just pick and choose what you want to argee with the catholic church on, I am just saying are you 100% behind the catholic church?
    Posted by shumirules


    I am not Catholic, I an Episcopalian. But the Catholic church puts out a good deal of material on the Abortion issue. On Birth Control, I disagree with the Catholics. I also disagree with them on issues like homosexuality.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from shumirules. Show shumirules's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : I am not Catholic, I an Episcopalian. But the Catholic church puts out a good deal of material on the Abortion issue. On Birth Control, I disagree with the Catholics. I also disagree with them on issues like homosexuality.
    Posted by LifeisLIfe


    So you choose one issue on which to quote the Catholic church strange.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeisLIfe. Show LifeisLIfe's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : So you choose one issue on which to quote the Catholic church strange.
    Posted by shumirules


    I agree with the Catholic Church on many issues. And they happen to have given this one in particular  a great deal of thought and are therefore a good souce of information. Also there is tremendous cross over between the anglican and the catholic church. I attend Catholic services regularly because they are very close to Anglican services.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from LifeisLIfe. Show LifeisLIfe's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    Do you really think Jesus would support breaking up families and deporting people who have lived here their entire lives. --------------------- We don't deport anyone who has lived here their entire lives
    Posted by GreginMeffa


    I meant people who were brought in illegally as children but have basically been here there entire lives.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatIsItNow. Show WhatIsItNow's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):


    "Others want the country destroyed"

    "loves this country"

    Posted by OscarBozachT00



    I am getting pretty disgusted by the uptick of vain self-righteous pronounciations of how much people love their country.

    What do you think motivates people like Oscar to repeat this?  Is it an underlying fear that his own beliefs and arguments might be false?  Or is it that he's so damn stupid that he thinks that he automatically wins an argument by saying "USA! USA! USA!"

    Now Oscar, I believe you previously said you have no problem with racial profiling?  That is, applying the law (here, Terry v. Ohio) on the basis of race?  But the Constitution forbids that.  You must love the Constitution if you love America. 

    Because you support racial profiling, you hate the Constitution and want to destroy America.  Get out of my sight, traitor!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from macnh1. Show macnh1's posts

    Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar)

    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar):
    In Response to Re: Immigration and Catholicism (more than two appraoches Oscar) : I give what money I can to this cause, and I am routinely volunteering for outreach programs to help assist legal and illegal aliens. I have given thousands of dollars personally to illegal immigrants. If I had money to send others to college I would do so, but I don't make alot of money. I take what Jesus said very seriously, and I act on it. Am I perfect? No. I fall short like everyone else, but I try real hard to do good works and to help ease the suffering in this world.
    Posted by LifeisLIfe


    You invite illegal immigrant strangers to live in your house???  Please tell me you don't have daughters or a wife....

    ....will you carry a package onto a plane for a happy friendly looking arab looking youth with a one way ticket to NY city too???

    I love the naive sense of duty you have to help illegals but what about the American kid who is having a hard time breathing at two in the morning in the Phoenix emergency room who can't get seen for four hours because its' jammed full of univited guests from over the border??

    We aren't the United States of the World.

    We never do well in the World Cup and I like it that way!!!!
     

Share