Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    Anyone familiar with economics is aware of the high level point from Hayek.  Every time there is a prolem, more government control is the answer from Obama.  The healthcare industry is coming under government control, the auto industry is under government control, the energy sectro is being blocked from providing market-based lower cost energy.

    Poverty is on the rise, real unemployment is up, debt is skyrocketing.

    These are the results that Hayek predicted, and they are unfolding before our eyes.  The new normal is paying more, getting less.  the new normal is having government make your choices for you, what you eat, what you buy. The product of your labor, your wealth, your money, not your own.  you need to give it "back" to government, even though it didn't start there.

    Enemic economic growth forecasted for the next decade - at least.

    This is the environment that leads to nasty outcomes for the people, always in the name of helping the people.  It leads to tyranny.  that's our future.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    Tyranny?  You think we are heading towards tyranny?  You don't know tyranny.  Truly socialist countries are generally quite happy and have a full range of political and social rights.  Where is the tyranny in Europe?  And we are not even close to the models there.  You are being hysterical again.  Calm down and get a grip.   Your future is apparently not to think too much.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    It is a nice rainy day topic.

    It is clear from your post you do not appreciate that true freedom involves economic freedom. Without it, man is not free. No matter how nice Europe appears, they are largely insolvent and not free by this standard.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    It is a nice rainy day topic.

    It is clear from your post you do not appreciate that true freedom involves economic freedom. Without it, man is not free. No matter how nice Europe appears, they are largely insolvent and not free by this standard.



    It is obvious you don't understand that all freedoms have their limits when they cause harm to others.  And all of Europe is not "largely insolvent".  

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    It is a nice rainy day topic.

    It is clear from your post you do not appreciate that true freedom involves economic freedom. Without it, man is not free. No matter how nice Europe appears, they are largely insolvent and not free by this standard.



    It is obvious you don't understand that all freedoms have their limits when they cause harm to others.  And all of Europe is not "largely insolvent".  



    You obviously don't appreciate the freedom to use your own money, money that is the result of your labor, as you see fit.  When you tax that money beyond a flat tax, you are makign decisions for me about what to do with my money.  You assume at best that I can afford to pay more, without any consideration as to a simple fact:  the money is my property.

    When you tax wealth, as is being proposed, you begin to make an even more onerous decision, that I don't deserve to hold onto my own property.

    This is the nature of the new normal:  What your is yours, and what's mine is yours.

    But, good news!  The USDA has finally given up on setting limits on meat in school lunches, after starving our school-aged population for no good reason other than they can. 

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SCHOOL_LUNCHES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-12-08-13-43-32

    FASCISM IS ON THE DECLINE!

     

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    In response to 12-Angry-Men's comment:

    Just gotta laugh at useful idiots like skeetard.

    He's never read the book and nor could he even hope to comprehend the economic principals or the socio-econimic implications of the many theories posited by Hayek. Even Hayek himself never posits a replacement for the current socio-economic hybrid that western countries have devoloped.

    That's why, for the ideological imbeciles of the right, he's a perfect bullshiat name to throw around because he might as well be a novelist, on par with Annie Raynd. It's all whacko wingnut baloney that these idiots have been told is what reality should be. It's not actual reality and it's nothing that ever could be in a modern, civilized world. But these wingnut morons need something, anything other than their pathetic lives, to believe in. 

    Whacko wingnuts want to be Horatio Algier but in reality they are some poor smuck, working 9-5 for "the Man" because they've never even tried accomplished anything in their lives on their own or tried make even a small difference in the world. They need this escape-ism and they need to lie to themselves that it's "gov't" or "regulation" or some other bullshiat that has caused them to be such miserable losers.

    They all want to be the rich guy in the Park Ave penthouse but in reality they are the non-achiever who wants to be accepted by the cool kids. Maybe, they think, if they give the 'cool kid' their lunch money then maybe they'll let them hang out during lunch period.

    That is the whacko wingnut, nose-to-buttocks mentality and they hate themsleves for it. That is why they keep trying to blame others for their sad, pathetic lives and their monumental failures.

    It's always someone else's fault....excuses, excuses, excuses....

     




    You left out "spanky".

    If you can't stand the intellectual rigors of actually arguing the point, a point, any point, just go back to the cartoon channel.  You should seek to model Rube, who actually makes an argument.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    It is obvious you don't understand that all freedoms have their limits when they cause harm to others.  And all of Europe is not "largely insolvent".  

    [/QUOTE]

    You obviously don't appreciate the freedom to use your own money, money that is the result of your labor, as you see fit.  When you tax that money beyond a flat tax, you are makign decisions for me about what to do with my money.  You assume at best that I can afford to pay more, without any consideration as to a simple fact:  the money is my property.

    When you tax wealth, as is being proposed, you begin to make an even more onerous decision, that I don't deserve to hold onto my own property.

    This is the nature of the new normal:  What your is yours, and what's mine is yours.

    But, good news!  The USDA has finally given up on setting limits on meat in school lunches, after starving our school-aged population for no good reason other than they can. 

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SCHOOL_LUNCHES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-12-08-13-43-32

    FASCISM IS ON THE DECLINE!

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I appreciate my freedoms just fine.  I also appreciate that I am part of a society that supports me and my freedoms so I am more than willing to give of myself to that society.  You have a problem with this model.  Apparently you uphold selfishness as a virtue.  You even question the need to pay taxes, something that has been happening throughot histroy ads long as there has been history.  Go be a hermit in a cave if you like.  But the rest of us wish to live in this century and be part of a modern society.

     

    An fascism has nothing to do with socialism, America and especially school lunch programs.  Go read up on real tyranny and get back to us.  But it might be hard to read in that cave of yours...

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    Anyone familiar with economics is aware of the high level point from Hayek.  Every time there is a prolem, more government control is the answer from Obama.  The healthcare industry is coming under government control, the auto industry is under government control, the energy sectro is being blocked from providing market-based lower cost energy.

    Poverty is on the rise, real unemployment is up, debt is skyrocketing.

    These are the results that Hayek predicted, and they are unfolding before our eyes.  The new normal is paying more, getting less.  the new normal is having government make your choices for you, what you eat, what you buy. The product of your labor, your wealth, your money, not your own.  you need to give it "back" to government, even though it didn't start there.

    Enemic economic growth forecasted for the next decade - at least.

    This is the environment that leads to nasty outcomes for the people, always in the name of helping the people.  It leads to tyranny.  that's our future.



     

    Now why do I feel like I've read this rant a million times before....?



    A million?  I've taken this tack many more times than a million.

    Hey, how's that school lunch working out for oyu?  is that why you are cranky all the time?

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    In response to TFefio's comment:

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

    Tyranny?  You think we are heading towards tyranny?  You don't know tyranny.  Truly socialist countries are generally quite happy and have a full range of political and social rights.  Where is the tyranny in Europe?  And we are not even close to the models there.  You are being hysterical again.  Calm down and get a grip.   Your future is apparently not to think too much.



    What a flipping moonie! Socialist countries are generally happy. Go move to one and be happy. Goof! 




    I think for the liberal posters here, living in countries that are collapsing under massive debt, where the government gives you one roll of toilet paper a month, and where you go out into the streets and burn everything down while claiming "the man" is holding you down, is a utopia, a dream, to which they aspire.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    What a flipping moonie! Socialist countries are generally happy. Go move to one and be happy. Goof! 

    [/QUOTE]

    It is arrogant in the extreme to think you have all the answers and not to seek to learn from others.  What is the goal of life other than happiness?  Goof!

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    In response to TFefio's comment:

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

    Tyranny?  You think we are heading towards tyranny?  You don't know tyranny.  Truly socialist countries are generally quite happy and have a full range of political and social rights.  Where is the tyranny in Europe?  And we are not even close to the models there.  You are being hysterical again.  Calm down and get a grip.   Your future is apparently not to think too much.



    What a flipping moonie! Socialist countries are generally happy. Go move to one and be happy. Goof! 




    I think for the liberal posters here, living in countries that are collapsing under massive debt, where the government gives you one roll of toilet paper a month, and where you go out into the streets and burn everything down while claiming "the man" is holding you down, is a utopia, a dream, to which they aspire.



    Don't be silly.  The European model is not on the verge of collapse.  Greece is not the norm.  You are the utopian.  You dream of an Ayn Randian world of robust individuals all competing to create a better world.  We tried that.  Read up on the era of the Robber Barons especially the lower classes who worked tirelessly for the extravagances of the economic elite.  Not pretty.  That model had to change for our society to grow and progress so all people could have a chance at happiness.

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

     



    It is obvious you don't understand that all freedoms have their limits when they cause harm to others.  And all of Europe is not "largely insolvent".  



    You obviously don't appreciate the freedom to use your own money, money that is the result of your labor, as you see fit.  When you tax that money beyond a flat tax, you are makign decisions for me about what to do with my money.  You assume at best that I can afford to pay more, without any consideration as to a simple fact:  the money is my property.

    When you tax wealth, as is being proposed, you begin to make an even more onerous decision, that I don't deserve to hold onto my own property.

    This is the nature of the new normal:  What your is yours, and what's mine is yours.

    But, good news!  The USDA has finally given up on setting limits on meat in school lunches, after starving our school-aged population for no good reason other than they can. 

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SCHOOL_LUNCHES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-12-08-13-43-32

    FASCISM IS ON THE DECLINE!

     




I appreciate my freedoms just fine.  I also appreciate that I am part of a society that supports me and my freedoms so I am more than willing to give of myself to that society.  You have a problem with this model.  Apparently you uphold selfishness as a virtue.  You even question the need to pay taxes, something that has been happening throughot histroy ads long as there has been history.  Go be a hermit in a cave if you like.  But the rest of us wish to live in this century and be part of a modern society.

 

An fascism has nothing to do with socialism, America and especially school lunch programs.  Go read up on real tyranny and get back to us.  But it might be hard to read in that cave of yours...



umm, fascism rose out of socialism.

 
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    In response to WhichOnesPink2's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    The healthcare industry is coming under government control, the auto industry is under government control, the energy sectro is being blocked from providing market-based lower cost energy.

     



    In what way is the entire healthcare industry coming under govt control?

    The auto industry is NOT under govt control. Unless you think GM is the ENTIRE auto industry.

    And lastly, how specifically is the energy sector being blocked from providing market-based lower cost energy?

     



    Healthcare:  Individuals miust buy it or pay a fine, companies must offer it, or pay a fine.  What is covered is determined by government decree.  In terms of coverqage:  @ 30% of the population recives health insurance either subsidized or paid for by the government. That's just for starters.

    Auto industry:  I am told repeatedly that GM is the leading car industry, but that aside: Government regulations and mandates control very closely the type of cars that are offered.   the U.S. industry has hitched it's wagon ot the government, CAFE standards, safety standards, anti-competivie regulations.

    Energy sector:  Obama has stated he wants to shut down the cola industry and has taken steps to do so.  He has also slow-walked drilling on public lands, and has come out against fracking.  His energy secretary is on record saying gasoline should be much higher, $7-$10 per gallon, by regulation if necessary.

    I hope this sampling of how the governemnt is controllign thiese thingspasses muster.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

     



    It is obvious you don't understand that all freedoms have their limits when they cause harm to others.  And all of Europe is not "largely insolvent".  



    You obviously don't appreciate the freedom to use your own money, money that is the result of your labor, as you see fit.  When you tax that money beyond a flat tax, you are makign decisions for me about what to do with my money.  You assume at best that I can afford to pay more, without any consideration as to a simple fact:  the money is my property.

    When you tax wealth, as is being proposed, you begin to make an even more onerous decision, that I don't deserve to hold onto my own property.

    This is the nature of the new normal:  What your is yours, and what's mine is yours.

    But, good news!  The USDA has finally given up on setting limits on meat in school lunches, after starving our school-aged population for no good reason other than they can. 

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SCHOOL_LUNCHES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-12-08-13-43-32

    FASCISM IS ON THE DECLINE!

     




    I appreciate my freedoms just fine.  I also appreciate that I am part of a society that supports me and my freedoms so I am more than willing to give of myself to that society.  You have a problem with this model.  Apparently you uphold selfishness as a virtue.  You even question the need to pay taxes, something that has been happening throughot histroy ads long as there has been history.  Go be a hermit in a cave if you like.  But the rest of us wish to live in this century and be part of a modern society.

     

    An fascism has nothing to do with socialism, America and especially school lunch programs.  Go read up on real tyranny and get back to us.  But it might be hard to read in that cave of yours...



  • umm, fascism rose out of socialism.



    Umm, no it did not.  In fact fascists are right wingers who hate socialists.  Pick up a history book.  

     
  • This post has been removed.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    [/QUOTE]


    Healthcare:  Individuals miust buy it or pay a fine, companies must offer it, or pay a fine.  What is covered is determined by government decree.  In terms of coverqage:  @ 30% of the population recives health insurance either subsidized or paid for by the government. That's just for starters.

    Auto industry:  I am told repeatedly that GM is the leading car industry, but that aside: Government regulations and mandates control very closely the type of cars that are offered.   the U.S. industry has hitched it's wagon ot the government, CAFE standards, safety standards, anti-competivie regulations.

    Energy sector:  Obama has stated he wants to shut down the cola industry and has taken steps to do so.  He has also slow-walked drilling on public lands, and has come out against fracking.  His energy secretary is on record saying gasoline should be much higher, $7-$10 per gallon, by regulation if necessary.

    I hope this sampling of how the governemnt is controllign thiese thingspasses muster.

    [/QUOTE]

    Scary!  People are getting affordable healthcare.  That's tyranny!  Concentration camps are next.  

    And when did Obama say he wants to kill Coca Cola?   You are just making stuff up now.

    You are embracing hysteria.  Get a grip.

     

     
  • This post has been removed.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    [/QUOTE]


    Scary!  People are getting affordable healthcare.  That's tyranny!  Concentration camps are next.  

    And when did Obama say he wants to kill Coca Cola?   You are just making stuff up now.

    You are embracing hysteria.  Get a grip.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Pretty sure he meant coal

    [/QUOTE]

    The guy thinks Hitler was a liberal and that gays are a cancer.  I put nothing beyond him.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    In response to WhichOnesPink2's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:


    Healthcare:  Individuals miust buy it or pay a fine, companies must offer it, or pay a fine.  What is covered is determined by government decree.  In terms of coverqage:  @ 30% of the population recives health insurance either subsidized or paid for by the government. That's just for starters.

    Auto industry:  I am told repeatedly that GM is the leading car industry, but that aside: Government regulations and mandates control very closely the type of cars that are offered.   the U.S. industry has hitched it's wagon ot the government, CAFE standards, safety standards, anti-competivie regulations.

    Energy sector:  Obama has stated he wants to shut down the cola industry and has taken steps to do so.  He has also slow-walked drilling on public lands, and has come out against fracking.  His energy secretary is on record saying gasoline should be much higher, $7-$10 per gallon, by regulation if necessary.

    I hope this sampling of how the governemnt is controllign thiese thingspasses muster.



    Yikes. So the idea of getting everyone coverage is "govt control" in your eyes? And no, the govt doesn't determine what is covered. As in the PAST, the govt does set about certain mandates for private insurers to cover basic things. Otherwise all insurers could offer pretty much next to nothing. Would you prefer that? But the govt doesn't tell BCBS they have to offer $10 copay or 50 er, etc. 

    You mean car companies have to have a standard on how they build cars and what is offered in these cars? Oh the horror. Imagine the nerve of the govt making car companies have safety standards in cars for things like car crashes. Fcuking govt heathens....how do they sleep at night. 

    You haven't show how govt IS blocking energy sector from providing market-based lower cost energy. You mentioned "if" scenarios....hell if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. "If" means jack sh!t. How about proving things the govt is ACTUALLY currently doing to block energy sector.



    Yikes! government forcing everyone to BUY insurance is government control, no matter how you sugar coat it.  

    Glad insurance companies can still set the co-pay (eye roll).  That's gonna make such a difference.

    Let me sum it up this way:  you are comfortable with government running your life, telling you how to spend your money, whether or not you should have healht care, what that healthcare entails.  bailing out heavily unionized companies that fail, and having the government promote HIGHER energy prices.  Oh, and blocking?  How about blocking the pipeline from Canada?  There's one example.

    You are for government solutions:  government is your god, your concience, your guide.  

    It's not mine.

     

     

     
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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    So when Obama does take action, they call it Government interference.  But when he doesn't take action, he's accused of a lack of leadership.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Is Obama following the Road to Serfdom model?

    In response to DirtyWaterLover's comment:

    So when Obama does take action, they call it Government interference.  But when he doesn't take action, he's accused of a lack of leadership.



    Interesting argument.  Wouldn't it depend on what action he takes?

     
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