Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from DamainAllen. Show DamainAllen's posts

    Re: Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

    In response to FortySixAnd2's comment:

     

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    But wait...I thought assault weapons were intimidating and scary looking? I thought assault weapons did major damage? If the argument of a weapon is to be intimidating where no one would want to argue with it then doesn't an assault weapon fit that bill?

     

     




     

    Shotguns are not assault weapons, and the current issue surrounding weapons like the AR 15 (traditionally considered an "assault weapon") are the large capacity magazines, rate of fire, and other aspects like the fact that it is engineered to be more lethal when used. 

    Any gun is intimidating, but the point home defense experts are making is even an armed intruder is going to think long and hard before confronting someone with a weapon like a shotgun that tends to have the last word in an argument. 

     



    Didn't say shotguns were assault weapons.

     

    And an intruder is going to think long and hard before confronting someone with a weapon like an AR-15 that tends to have the last word in an argument, no?

     




     

    Probably, but the thing is no one goes on shooting rampages with shotguns, hence why there is no push to ban shotguns. 

     



    Wrong. Here is a list a mass shootings where a 12 gauge was used

     

    Northern Ill U

    San Ysidro

    Lockheed Martin

    Wakefield

    Amish School

    Red Lake

    Navistar

    And if shooting rampages is the reason for banning assault weapons then 9 mm handguns should also be banned since those have been used in about 24 mass shootings.

     



     

    While some could reasonable argue that handguns are the true menace, the fact is handgun capacity limits the lethality of the weapon.  In addition shooters firing with one hand are going to be less accurate than they would with a AR15 type rifle which the shooter will have better control over and likely more firing discipline to keep the barrel of the weapon on target because they can manage recoil better.  

    San Ysidro shooting, the shooter had a shotgun in addition to an Uzi and a 9mm.  The uzi and 9mm were the weapons used to kill most of the people in the restaurant, and he fired those weapons over 200 times.

    Red Lake shooting, the primary weapon used was a glock, the killer committed suicide with the shotgun.  Also the shooter tried to use an assault rifle, but jammed the weapon while loading it and he left it at home.  The FBI commented that had he used the assault rifle the death toll would have been higher.  Teh FBI counted 45 shots the shooter made with handguns, 8 with the shotgun. 

    Northern Ill, the shooter fired six times with his shotgun before switching to a handgun and firing 50 more times. 

    Lockheed Martin, though the shooter had several other weapons, his primary weapon was the shotgun which he used to wound and kill all of his victims.

    Wakefield shooting, the perpetrator had several weapons, but he used a AK 47 to kill his victims. 

    The killer in the Amish shooting did have a shotgun among his weapons but used a pistol when he started shooting his hostages

    The point of all of this should be apparent, shotguns are generally not the weapon of choice for mass shootings.  While many killers may have one amond the weapons they utilize for their attacks, typically smaller more agile weapons end up being used and it is plainly obvious why: faster rate of fire, easier to wield, ability to dump ammo faster than with a shotgun. 

     

     



    The weapon of choice in majority of mass shootings (35) has been handguns. You say "handgun capacity limits the lethality of the weapon", tell that to the victims of the V Tech massacre. 33 people were killed, most in any of the mass shootings in US. All by 9mm and .22 handguns.

     

    There have been six double digits killings from mass shootings involving non-assault weapons (handguns), versus four double digit killings where assault weapons were used. I don't know, seems to me based on the facts, handguns have done more damage than assault weapons.

     

     




     

    In aggregate, yes.  handguns are more widely available and thus would be used in more gun assaults yielding a higher total number of deaths than say assault rifles that are significantly more expensive than handguns and thus less common.  An AR15 can set you back nearly 2 grand in some places versus a few hundred bucks for a handgun.  I think the stats would back up that VTech was an outlier and I am sure there were particular circumstances that led to the shooter being able to kill so many people with a couple of handguns.

    Personally, I think the assult weapons ban misses the mark a bit because the majority of gun violence isn't related to mass shootings or assault rifles, but result from generic criminal activity (drugs, gangs, etc) or domestic situations gone awry and most involve handguns.  That said, I still think we should rethink allowing military style weapons to be sold to the general population, close gun show loopholes, and implement better strategies for dealing with straw purchases which lead directly to gun running and the transfer of legit legal firearms to criminals who would otherwise have a more difficult time getting their hands on the weapon to begin with. 

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from DamainAllen. Show DamainAllen's posts

    Re: Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

    In response to FortySixAnd2's comment:

    In response to DamainAllen's comment:

     

     

     

    In aggregate, yes.  handguns are more widely available and thus would be used in more gun assaults yielding a higher total number of deaths than say assault rifles that are significantly more expensive than handguns.  An AR15 can set you back nearly 2 grand in some places.  I think the stats would back up that VTech was an outlier and I am sure there were particular circumstances that led to the shooter being able to kill so many people with a couple of handguns.

    Personally, I think the assult weapons ban misses the mark a bit because the majority of gun violence isn't related to mass shootings, but result from generic criminal activity (drugs, gangs, etc) or domestic situations gone awry.  That said, I still think we should rethink allowing military style weapons to be sold to the general population, close gun show loopholes, and implement better strategies for dealing with straw purchases which lead directly to gun running and the transfer of legit legal firearms to criminals who would otherwise have a more difficult time getting their hands on the weapon to begin with. 

     



    The only problem with the assault weapons ban the way it's was written for the 1994 ban is a joke. And AR-15 is only considered an "assault" weapon if it has two or more of: 

     

    So as long as an AR-15 has none of those features it's not an assault weapon. Forget the fact that it still has the shooting power and accuracy of an assault weapon. But hey...it doesn't have a pistol grip or flash suppressor so it's cool.

    Also, a weapons ban is only in regards to manufacturing of said weapons. The millions that are currently owned are still going to be out there. Guns can last several generations when properly cared for. 

     

     

     




    All true, which is what makes confronting the issue very tricky.  If there is an assult weapons ban (doubtful) the gun manufacturers will simply build around it and third party mod experts will make a mint by doing the pretty easy modifications to add in the features that were banned.  And yes, the ban won't do anything about the existing weapons already floating around out there, and no one is going to even try and deal with that wrinkle because if they did, I suspect the looniest owners of those weapons would start shooting people. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatDoYouWantNow. Show WhatDoYouWantNow's posts

    Re: Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

    In response to FortySixAnd2's comment:

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    In response to macnh1's comment:

    it is illegal in most states to fire a weapon from the balcony of your house and really irresponsible but if dems and the VP say its okay then it must be...

    DING!

     




     

    And the UN-DING!: There is a "necessity defense" which is the same as self-defense in another skin. If it were necessary to fire a weapon from the balcony of your house in order to defend yourself or another, then a law making it illegal to do so in normal conditions would not nail you.

     

     

     



    Sure but most likely after having been arrested for reckless conduct such as....

     

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/21/new-hampshire-man-faces-felony-charge-after-firing-gun-into-ground-near-burglar/




     

    Well that's one of the perils/responsibilities of gun owernship. You can't go firing the thing off unless you genuinely need to.

    I haven't done a 50 state survey, but I don't think there are many (any?) states where that level of force can be used to protect property....which is all that that guy was protecting when he went to confront the burglar leaving his neighbor's house.

    But as the article notes, the prosecutor has discretion to dismiss the charges or bring lesser ones.

     

     

     

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    Are we angry that he didn't gaffe or something?

     



    All the noise is over the fact that Biden has just become embarassing, his good ol boy I shop at Home Depot routine is really tiresome.  Does anyone really think he owns a shot gun or that this supposed conversation ever took place with his wife concerning a couple of shot gun blasts off of the balcony to scare away a threat?  

    Unless its a nice tactical/home pump action shotgun with a 5-7 round capacity; unloading two rounds from your traditional double barrel shotgun means you've just emptied your load and now you just have a pipe in your hands.  The simple sound of the pump load action lets an intruder know that you are serious.

    Come on, this little stroy didn't happen when he was a Senator and it sure hasn't happened since he's been under Secret Service protection.

    This criticism comes from someone who looked at Biden during the 2008 cycle as a legitimate option due to his foreign policy knowledge.  Well luckily he didn't get the #1 spot.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:

    That's the point, when a society allows it's citizens their right to protect themselves by the most effective means possible (meaning any firearm including shotguns) it automatically creates a deterrent for criminals by taking away an advantage that they might otherwise have.

    It's not a coincedence that mass murder events most often take place in "gun-free" zones.

     

     




    Compare the rate of such attacks in Britain and America: Britain is no where close to our rate.  Britain is much more of a "gun free zone" than America. Now let's see if you can make the logical connection between these facts.

     

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from xXR3S1NXx. Show xXR3S1NXx's posts

    Re: Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

    The scariest sound You can hear if your an uninvited guest Is the cocking of a gun. And you simply cant do that with a Shotgun. Lets let Kiefer Sutherland explain.  

    "Now, doesn't that just torque your jaws? I love that. You know, just like in the movies, when the good guy is about to kill the bad guy, he cocks his gun. Now, why didn't he have it cocked? Because, that sound is scary. It's cool, isn't it?"

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from xXR3S1NXx. Show xXR3S1NXx's posts

    Re: Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

    Plus Gun control isnt about safety, its about control.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from xXR3S1NXx. Show xXR3S1NXx's posts

    Re: Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

     

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:

     

    That's the point, when a society allows it's citizens their right to protect themselves by the most effective means possible (meaning any firearm including shotguns) it automatically creates a deterrent for criminals by taking away an advantage that they might otherwise have.

    It's not a coincedence that mass murder events most often take place in "gun-free" zones.

     

     

     




    Compare the rate of such attacks in Britain and America: Britain is no where close to our rate.  Britain is much more of a "gun free zone" than America. Now let's see if you can make the logical connection between these facts.

     

     

     

     




    Britian has the worst Violent Crime Rate of any Rich nation. I wonder why that is??? Oops im sry am i being inconveinant to the agenda your trying to push rueben?

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from macnh1. Show macnh1's posts

    Re: Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

    a shotgun is the most lethal weapon available for close contact engagements, it's lethality is second to none.....when the americans used shotguns in the trenches during world war 1 the germans actually complained to the Hague and declared that any prisoner found with a shotgun would be executed....

    all guns are lethal...

    people are the problem..our country is in a rapid decline and people want to blame guns instead of people because of political correctness....

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatDoYouWantNow. Show WhatDoYouWantNow's posts

    Re: Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

    In response to xXR3S1NXx's comment:

    The scariest sound You can hear if your an uninvited guest Is the cocking of a gun.


    A flintlock pistol?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from xXR3S1NXx. Show xXR3S1NXx's posts

    Re: Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    In response to xXR3S1NXx's comment:

    The scariest sound You can hear if your an uninvited guest Is the cocking of a gun.



    A flintlock pistol?

     

     




    Lol. Yea if you have 5 minutes to sit and reload the thing if you need to fire at someone. No. Im taking about guns with a slide or bolt action. But im guessing you already knew that huh. smart a55.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatDoYouWantNow. Show WhatDoYouWantNow's posts

    Re: Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

    In response to xXR3S1NXx's comment:

    Lol. Yea if you have 5 minutes to sit and reload the thing if you need to fire at someone. No. Im taking about guns with a slide or bolt action. But im guessing you already knew that huh. smart a55.


    Eh, just pointing out that the most commonly used weapons for self defense don't need to be cocked manually. Hell, most are semi-automatic handguns. So perhaps the sound would be the clip locking in.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from xXR3S1NXx. Show xXR3S1NXx's posts

    Re: Mr. Vice President... I presonally apologize

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    In response to xXR3S1NXx's comment:

    Lol. Yea if you have 5 minutes to sit and reload the thing if you need to fire at someone. No. Im taking about guns with a slide or bolt action. But im guessing you already knew that huh. smart a55.



    Eh, just pointing out that the most commonly used weapons for self defense don't need to be cocked manually. Hell, most are semi-automatic handguns. So perhaps the sound would be the clip locking in.

     

     



    Actually they do. A good gun owner always checks and makes sure his gun is Loaded and cocked before using.The exception though is if the gun was already cocked and still has a bullet(s) Left in the chamber. in that case you can just put in another mag and keep shooting. Even with New weapons your still required to manually advance the first bullet into the chamber and ready for firing.