Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    The president had no business overruling the FDA. If they said it was safe that's good enough for me.
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.:
    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill. : Well, I just think that it makes sense to defer to the FDA unless obvious problems crop up. They do make mistakes from time to time, and people do get hurt, but for the most part they do their job. I really don't see why the FDA should be overruled, particularly where you can simply require manufacturers make the box black with big yellow lettering that says "you will be horribly injured if you do not follow instructions exactly." Moreover, there are a million other things that unwary or stupid children can hurt or kill themselves with available in a supermarket or drug store. RAID, cleaning liquid, energy saving light bulbs with mercury, tylenol, etc etc etc. Hell, some idiots even try to 'huff' fumes from these things and yet anyone can buy it . I really don't see why we should think this particular item is more likely to be used than anything else.
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow



    This is not like taking a couple of Tylenol for headache.  It does make sense to leave these decisions to FDA, but in this case they're wrong.  In my view it's just a matter of safety.  There are just too many serious potential side effects for me to think this is a good idea unless under the supervision of a doctor.
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.:
    />.Heck, ya can't buy cough medicine now without an ID.<< Bah! That's just cough medicine with psuedophedrine. In the name of the War on Drugs. Not safety.
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow


    Call it the war on drugs, but you could argue that that's a matter of public safety.  Also, have you any idea how extraordinarily dangerous meth labs are?  Even when they're being dismantled their extremely dangerous.
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.:
    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill. : I don't think it requires a doctors visit but I also don't think that it should be able to be purchased without parental consent. A visit with a pharmacist in the company of parents would suffice. Heck, ya can't buy cough medicine now without an ID. I also don't think of it as legislating responsibility but rather conferring the gravitas that sex by underage children deserves.
    Posted by airborne-rgr


    I think consulting with a physician is necessary.  A pharmacist is not licensed to practice medicine, and that includes giving medical advice.

    We just disagree on this.
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.:
    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill. : Well it's not me calling it the War on Drugs. Pseudophedrine had been available OTC for years and years. It still is, but you have to show ID. They did that because the drug was easier to convert to methamphetamine than are vaguely related OTC compounds like ephedrine. Plus, unlike ephedrine, pseudophedrine also came in tablets without any other drugs. So meth manufacturers would buy it buy the cartload. I would certainly like to be corrected, but I am absolutely certain the move to behind the counter was 100% and exclusively due to the methamphetamine scare. I am not aware of any serious side-effects, and there is no incentive to abuse it. It doesn't make anyone high, it would just make your nose really really really dry. Now they just send people around to buy a box here and there.... And of course, cut down on one drug and usage of others pops up. What can I say? People like to get high. (Ephedrine was temporarily made illegal by many states, like Mass, because imbeciles would take a handful, go to the gym, and have the heart attack they were begging for --- it's like a stronger form of caffeine, though I only take it (and in 1/2 or 1/3 of the dose) when I'm really sick but absolutely need to get work done, and coffee doesn't cut it. The actual intended use is as a broncho-dialotor; opens up your lungs a bit. Thus, it is sold paired with guafenisin, which is an expectorant; helps you cough up phlegm. For serious lung colds. But beware, it ticks up your heart rate a lot more than caffeine. And, I find, even small amounts can make you  easily irritable.). In fact, ephedrine supports my position.  As with pseudophedrine, you do have to show ID for it as well, but that is because it falls under the same federal law requiring ID for pseudophedrine; as I noted, it's similar enough that comparable chemical processes will convert it to methamphetamine. It is not behind the counter because it can kill you not very far past the recommended maximum dose. And there are a lot more people likely to take too many pep pills than there are careless people who are likely to hurt themselves with the morning after pill.
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow



    Methamphetamine is not a "scare", it is very real, with very real consequences and health effects.  Further, even when these labs are discovered they are an extraordinary physical danger to the people who dismantle them, and the general public around them. 

    The difference between ephedrine and pseudoephedrine is the orientation of one hydroxyl group.  If you look at the compound in three dimensions that hydroxyl group will extend outward away from you rather than inward towards you.  Other than that difference, the two are exactly the same chemical structure, not "vaguely similar" but identical.  And, structurally speaking, neither compound has anything to do with caffeine, nor does it look like caffeine after analysis with an NMR, IR, GC-MS, or any other benchtop analysis you can think of…if that were the case some enterprising chemist would start extracting caffeine from coffee beans (the process is quite simple, I did it as an undergraduate out of boredom) and start making methamphetamine from the extract.
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.:
    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill. : I didn't say the structure of ephedrine is the same as caffeine. I said the effect is like caffeine, but stronger. Either way, the methamphetamine thing is like other drug scares. Government comes down on one thing really hard, so the others pop back up. The 80s saw the 'crack epidemic', the 90s saw heroin get big again along with ecstasy (the latter being virtually harmless unless you were to take 20; the main danger was from fake or adulterated pills); in the 00s see meth. I'm not saying it's harmless. It quite obviously is a rather addictive drug. It packs quite a punch...  And, it is of course made in these explodable labs. But the main point was: Ephedrine and pseudophedrine are behind the counter because of meth labs, and not at all because of health concerns directly related to the drug.
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow


    Okay, I agree with your "main point" that they were moved behind the counter because of meth production.  Your other points were way off and so I commented on them. 
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.:
    Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius overruled the FDA's recommendation that emergency contraception be made available over the counter to patients of all ages on Wednesday. Her argument was that its effects on 11-year-olds have not been thoroughly studied. Critics pointed out that many over-the-counter drugs are far more dangerous than emergency contraceptives. What’s the most dangerous drug you can buy without a prescription? It's hard to say. As far as the Explainer can tell, no researcher has ever compared the fatality rates of every drug available over the counter—probably because the number of deaths from overdose of antacids and many other products is so small as to make the study a waste of time. There is, however, a large body of research on pain relievers. Analgesic overdoses are pretty common in the United States. In 2000, poison-control centers received more than 130,000 calls from people who believed they had taken a dangerous amount of an over-the-counter painkiller. Nearly one-half of those calls concerned acetaminophen, best known as the active ingredient in Tylenol. Approximately 0.2 percent of those cases ended in death. That’s higher than the reported death rate for nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs like Advil (ibuprofen) and Aleve (naproxen), but lower than the fatality rate for aspirin. (Aspirin is technically in the same category, but is often separated for research purposes.) * However, most of the aspirin deaths appear to have been suicides, while accidental overdose is more common than intentional overdose for acetaminophen. Between the years 1990 and 1998, 458 people died from taking too much acetaminophen. * Pseudoephedrine, a very common cold medication, is also implicated in a number of deaths every year. In 2004, for example, poison-control centers reported 21 deaths in which the chemical was involved. However, most of those patients took a cocktail of drugs—often including acetaminophen—and many of the cases were ruled suicides. It’s also not entirely correct to call pseudoephedrine an over-counter drug. A 2005 act of Congress forced retailers to move it behind the counter because of its use in the production of methamphetamine. Of course, many other drugs can be fatal if you go way overboard. Even Epsom salts, which are commonly used as a laxative, can cause cardiac arrest. A hospital in Scotland reported a case of attempted suicide by Epsom salts in 2009. The woman ingested an incredible 4.4 pounds of the stuff. She suffered some acute cardiac complications, but doctors were able to save her. It’s not easy to determine the fatal dose of over-the-counter drugs. Take the example of acetaminophen. A person’s ability to handle the drug depends on a variety of factors, including the condition of their liver, how much they’ve eaten, and whether they take the pill in conjunction with alcohol. (Bad idea.) Compared to other over-the-counter drugs, acetaminophen has a relatively narrow safety margin—that is, the difference between a safe-but-effective dose and an overdose is relatively small. Doctors have reported liver failure from as little as 2.5 grams in a day, which is 1.5 grams less than the approved limit. The FDA has considered reducing the approved daily dose (PDF) of over-the-counter acetaminophen, but that wouldn’t help in all cases. Many patients don’t realize how much of the drug they’re taking. Those who are prescribed the painkiller Percocet , for example, might take over-the-counter acetaminophen as an adjunct for different or breakthrough pain. The problem is that Percoset contains acetaminophen, and the combination can easily put them over the dose limit. What’s the fatal dose of emergency contraceptive? Nobody knows. The drug certainly has side effects , like nausea, vomiting, dizziness, fatigue, and the like. Women who use the morning-after pill as their regular form of contraception can also experience some menstrual irregularities. But no one has taken a fatal dose of Plan B.   http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/explainer/2011/12/emergency_contraceptives_over_the_counter_are_they_more_dangerous_than_other_drugs_.html
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow


    It appears that you are attempting to compare "fatal dose" of other over-the-counter medicine to the potential complications of this particular medicine.  I don't think it's a reasonable comparison.

    We disagree on this and no argument that you can put up is going to change my mind.  The potential complications are too severe.  This particular medicine should only be administered under physicians care.  That's just my opinion as a scientist and you don't have to agree with it.
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    Our President, (with Kathleen Sebelius in tow), should take a trip to a local drug store and there they would find that this pill is never going to be kept between bubble gum and batteries but will always be kept under lock and key because of potential theft. Retail outlets charge about $50.00, so it would remain in the pharmacy where a knowledgeable person would be available to answer questions no matter the age restrictions.
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.:
    Well simply telling me that you're a scientist and that "the potential complications are too severe" certainly isn't going to convince me, but I also won't insist that "no argument" could possibly convince me to change my mind. And, I suppose looking at fatalities or the complete lack there of is "unreasonable" if dying isn't a serious complication. But then I haven't seen reports of other "severe" complications so I'm wondering where you're getting that. What severe complications? What frequency? It can cause nausea, headache, dizziness, vomiting, disruption of the menstraul cycle, and sometimes some bleeding. The manufacturer lists no light threatening or really serious side effects in prescriber's guidelines, etc. Are they lying? www. planb onestep.com/pdf/ PlanB OneStepFullProductInformation.pdf It sounds like the only serious dangers are for people with history of stroke,etc. And who knows, maybe as with ordinary birth control pills, smoking cigarettes while on the medication increase the risk of stroke. But those are also things that could be put in big obvious lettering on the packaging. (And it isn't like doctor's don't prescribe birth control for smokers, they just warn them).
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow


    Okay, maybe "no argument..." is too severe.  And I didn't mention being a scientist to convince you of anything.  I mentioned it to provide some indication that I probably have a better understanding of the chemistry than most.  You've mentioned you practice law, I take your word that you know a bit about the law.

    We disagree on this.  Unless I am mistaken, you think it should be readily available to anyone who want's to buy it.  I think it should be administed with a physicians advice.
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.:
    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill. : Well it's not just that. I'm not asking "what severe complications" to be stubborn. I'd genuinely like to know if I missed something, just like I appreciated your comment on the structure of ephedrine vs. pseudophedrine. I don't intend to beat the thing to death, but as far as I can tell the only reactions that happen frequently enough to be worth mentioning (and for the manufacturer to be required to disclose in prescribing guidelines) are not what I would consider "serious." I mean, they sound quite unpleasant, but they do not seem to be causing lasting harm, etc. Just a day or two of vomiting and dizziness, etc. Which sucks, but is not the end of the world.
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow


    Initially I was thinking of a different compound, which has been directly linked to fatal results.  The compound here has, as you pointed out, not been linked to fatal results.  My understanding is that this compound can provide the same effect as the other compound that I was thinking about, which is to abort a pregnancy.  That is where the "severe" complications may arise.  Has this complication been documented?  I am not aware of it, but I haven't researched it.  If there is a remote possibility of this type of complication occurring, and it would appear there is that possibility, then this medicine should only be available by prescription.
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    I don't know...I have mixed feelings on this. I don't think the "morning after" pill should be available to teen girls without a doctor's involvement for a couple of reasons. First..this is a powerful..and I mean powerful dose of hormones. The safety of the product is assumed if it is used correctly..within ( I think) one or two days of unprotected sex. Who is to say that a teenage girl..who is 2 weeks late won't go into a panic and try the morning after pill as a quick fix? In this case, the results would be somewhat more than unpleasant from a woman's perspective. The risks of hemorraghing would be somewhat higher..etc. Now..I realize you can't base society ( or your personal decisions) on "what if"...but I just feel strongly that a doctor's involvement is important.
    Second...Plan B is a powerful concentration of birth control. My philosophy is..if I am doing the "right" thing and taking birth control pills..how come I have to have a prescription and use the pharmacy when someone taking a more powerful dose can bypass that?
    Finally, the FDA is not infallible. Over the years they've told us all kinds of things are not harmful..then it turns out they are. I for one am not willing to play guinea pig with young girls who have no idea of the ramifications of their decisions.

    Oh..and BTW..I don't use any products with Pseudophedrine..but I think it's ridiculous that they are kept behind the counter. One more example of everyone being inconvenienced for the actions of a very few.
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.:
    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill. : I think , but am not positive, I read somewhere else that a complication can arise if it is an ectopic pregnancy. But that doesn't really make much sense to me because (1) an ectopic pregnancy itself is the thing that can create the life-threatening complication if it does not resolve itself - the egg does not implant in the uterine lining. Usually in the fallopian tubes, but possibly elsewhere, and (2) the purpose of the Plan B, according to that previously cited document, is:  "Plan B One-Step is believed to act as an emergency contraceptive principally by preventing ovulation or fertilization (by altering tubal transport of sperm and/or ova). In addition, it may inhibit implantation (by altering the endometrium). It is not effective once the process of implantation has begun." So I would think that it wouldn't effect either a normal pregnancy or an ectopic one. Then again, I'm not a doctor. All I really know is that a few searches did not reveal any information from what I might deem a credible source about serious complications. (ie, I did not go reading internet forums where people are speculating).
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow


    Consider this: A woman is already pregnant but doesn't know she's pregnant.  She takes this medication and it induces an abortion.  If the medicine induces an abortion and the POC is not completely removed, the result may be complications that vary in severity.  Those complications would almost certainly require medical intervention and with an equal degree of certainty, surgery. 

    I may be wrong about this, I'm not a MD...but I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    In Response to Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.:
    Well, I think the point is that it wouldn't induce an abortion. It wouldn't even work once the fertalized egg is implanted in the uterine lining, let alone a developing fetus. However, the one counter-point there is that a massive dose of hormones to the mother could harm the fetus itself. Still, I would guess that a very large percentage of those who attempt to take the morning after pill, and it fails to prevent the pregnancy, would then abort it at the earliest possible time.
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow


    I thought I read somewhere that this could induce.  As I said, I could be wrong about it...
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    You have to take it within 72 hours of conception, so there's a lot of potential for misuse.    Speaking of birth control look what happened to these poor folks.    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/10/us/redress-weighed-for-forced-sterilizations-in-north-carolina.html
     
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    Re: Obama Admin Blocks OTC morning after pill.

    Okay but desperate people do desperate things so say you took it a week later and it didn't terminate the pregnancy, so now you have a potentially damaged fetus and you're still pregnant!   I don't know,  I would prefer it was given under the supervision of a dr.   But I see your point,  I don't feel strongly about it either way.
     
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