Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to slomag's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't understand the notion that Obama is acting outside his authority.   He has the power to pardon drug smugglers and terrorists, but not to excuse somebody from a fine?

    Article 2, Section 2 of the Constitution - he (the President) shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States

    Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I think youve identified the clowns.  

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hansoribrother. Show Hansoribrother's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to slomag's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't understand the notion that Obama is acting outside his authority.   He has the power to pardon drug smugglers and terrorists, but not to excuse somebody from a fine?

    Article 2, Section 2 of the Constitution - he (the President) shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States

    Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Uh, doesn't one have to be convicted of a crime before being pardoned? That is quite different than saying you are not going to enforce the law.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slomag's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't understand the notion that Obama is acting outside his authority.   He has the power to pardon drug smugglers and terrorists, but not to excuse somebody from a fine?

    Article 2, Section 2 of the Constitution - he (the President) shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States

    Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Uh, doesn't one have to be convicted of a crime before being pardoned? That is quite different than saying you are not going to enforce the law.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The constitution doesn't say crimes - it says Offences.  If you do not get insurance, you are in violation of federal law and you will be fined (for that Offence).  Unless you receive a Reprieve from the President.  What am I missing?

     

     

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ronreganfan. Show ronreganfan's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to slomag's comment:

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slomag's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't understand the notion that Obama is acting outside his authority.   He has the power to pardon drug smugglers and terrorists, but not to excuse somebody from a fine?

    Article 2, Section 2 of the Constitution - he (the President) shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States

    Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?

     



    Uh, doesn't one have to be convicted of a crime before being pardoned? That is quite different than saying you are not going to enforce the law.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The constitution doesn't say crimes - it says Offences.  If you do not get insurance, you are in violation of federal law and you will be fined (for that Offence).  Unless you receive a Reprieve from the President.  What am I missing?

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I think the real issue is that the ACA, as passed, is not even close to what is being implemented, in spirit, or in the law.  At some point, the supporters of this law have got to understand that it is not working.

    We depend on our government to be straight with us.  This law was sold based on lies, and now, it is being implemented along lines of favoritism and politics:  Johnny gets cake and ice cream, while Suzie goes to her room, all for the same future crime.

    Laws are imperfect, I think we can all agree on that.  However, a law like this, a Federal Law, which is so rife with favoritism, political manuvering, and pain and suffering for so many, well, if you support the law in it's current state, you really need to examine your motivation for your continued support.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from StalkingButler. Show StalkingButler's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    [QUOTE]Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?[/QUOTE]

    President Obama didn't pardon or reprieve anyone. He changed a law by decree. It's a different thing.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ronreganfan. Show ronreganfan's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:

    [QUOTE]Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?

    President Obama didn't pardon or reprieve anyone. He changed a law by decree. It's a different thing.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Details, details.

    I have come to beleive that those who say they support Obamacare actually don't.  What they support is socialized medicine, which we keep getting told Obamacare is not.  

    So, either Obamacare is a version of socialized medicine, or the left is uninformed.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName9. Show UserName9's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?[/QUOTE]

    President Obama didn't pardon or reprieve anyone. He changed a law by decree. It's a different thing.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Details, details.

    I have come to beleive that those who say they support Obamacare actually don't.  What they support is socialized medicine, which we keep getting told Obamacare is not.  

    So, either Obamacare is a version of socialized medince, or the left is uninformed.

    [/QUOTE]


    Funny....most people I know on the left know exactly what the law is and what it does. 

    And many of us have been living with a version of it for about 8 years in MA now.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:

    In response to slomag's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slomag's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't understand the notion that Obama is acting outside his authority.   He has the power to pardon drug smugglers and terrorists, but not to excuse somebody from a fine?

    Article 2, Section 2 of the Constitution - he (the President) shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States

    Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?

     

     



    Uh, doesn't one have to be convicted of a crime before being pardoned? That is quite different than saying you are not going to enforce the law.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The constitution doesn't say crimes - it says Offences.  If you do not get insurance, you are in violation of federal law and you will be fined (for that Offence).  Unless you receive a Reprieve from the President.  What am I missing?

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I think the real issue is that the ACA, as passed, is not even close to what is being implemented, in spirit, or in the law.  At some point, the supporters of this law have got to understand that it is not working.

    We depend on our government to be straight with us.  This law was sold based on lies, and now, it is being implemented along lines of favoritism and politics:  Johnny gets cake and ice cream, while Suzie goes to her room, all for the same future crime.

    Laws are imperfect, I think we can all agree on that.  However, a law like this, a Federal Law, which is so rife with favoritism, political manuvering, and pain and suffering for so many, well, if you support the law in it's current state, you really need to examine your motivation for your continued support.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think that's a legitimate use of executive order - to patch unintended consequences of a law until Congress has a chance to address it more fully.

    Are we agreed that the characterization of Obama 'out of control' and acting against the consititution is baseless?  I'm hearing it A LOT from conservative voices.

     

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?[/QUOTE]

    President Obama didn't pardon or reprieve anyone. He changed a law by decree. It's a different thing.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Did he?  What did he change, other than postponing penalties, which is the definition of a reprieve?

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?[/QUOTE]

    President Obama didn't pardon or reprieve anyone. He changed a law by decree. It's a different thing.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Details, details.

    I have come to beleive that those who say they support Obamacare actually don't.  What they support is socialized medicine, which we keep getting told Obamacare is not.  

    So, either Obamacare is a version of socialized medince, or the left is uninformed.

    [/QUOTE]

    Labels only frighten the simple-minded.

    Unless you support single payer, you in some way support free market medicine.  And unless you want to completely wipe out subsidies, medicare & medicaid, you in some way support socialized medicine.  Even hospitals and ambulance services contract with local government - you can't pick an ambulance off of Yelp.

     

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ronreganfan. Show ronreganfan's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to UserName9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?[/QUOTE]

    President Obama didn't pardon or reprieve anyone. He changed a law by decree. It's a different thing.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Details, details.

    I have come to beleive that those who say they support Obamacare actually don't.  What they support is socialized medicine, which we keep getting told Obamacare is not.  

    So, either Obamacare is a version of socialized medince, or the left is uninformed.

    [/QUOTE]


    Funny....most people I know on the left know exactly what the law is and what it does. 

    And many of us have been living with a version of it for about 8 years in MA now.

    [/QUOTE]

    Still leaning on that broken comparison?

    What was Romneycare, 28 pages?

    With Obamacare weighing in at 2,700, it is impossible for the two bills/programs to be the same.

    That aside:  The situation in Massachusetts due to Romneycare is not good.  Costs were not cut, half the doctors are refusing participants.  Emergency room visits are not down. 

    Not exactly a stellar result.  one might be tempted to use this to prove that government is not the answer.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ronreganfan. Show ronreganfan's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to slomag's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?[/QUOTE]

    President Obama didn't pardon or reprieve anyone. He changed a law by decree. It's a different thing.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Details, details.

    I have come to beleive that those who say they support Obamacare actually don't.  What they support is socialized medicine, which we keep getting told Obamacare is not.  

    So, either Obamacare is a version of socialized medince, or the left is uninformed.

    [/QUOTE]

    Labels only frighten the simple-minded.

    Unless you support single payer, you in some way support free market medicine.  And unless you want to completely wipe out subsidies, medicare & medicaid, you in some way support socialized medicine.  Even hospitals and ambulance services contract with local government - you can't pick an ambulance off of Yelp.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    The label seems to have frightened you, but I am not sure why.  

    Your single payer statement is demonstrably false.  Obamacare is not a free market solution, unless you consider paying a fine, er, I mean taxes, for NOT purchasing health care insurance a "free market choice".  The federal government determines what will be covered, determines who will get a waiver, and who will not.  It determines who pays what kind of fine, and it determines what proceedures your doctor can offer based on your age and status.

    Everything is controlled and manged through the Federal Government. When a change is announced, it is not an annoncement from a private company, but a pronoucement from someone in the federal goverment:  They are in the pilot's seat, and that alone should open your eyes.  It is not a honest free-will, or free-market transaction, it is  a compelled/forced transaction from/by the federal government.

    Despite all this, you treat Obamacare as a "market".  It is nothing of the sort.

    Now, you can be for Obamacare, and say we are best served by the federal government controlling health care, but be honest, unlike the politicians were when they sold it.  

    Period.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    [QUOTE]Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?

    [/QUOTE]

     

    President Obama didn't pardon or reprieve anyone. He changed a law by decree. It's a different thing.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Details, details.

    I have come to beleive that those who say they support Obamacare actually don't.  What they support is socialized medicine, which we keep getting told Obamacare is not.  

    So, either Obamacare is a version of socialized medicine, or the left is uninformed.

    [/QUOTE]

    Such as happens when you prefer dogma over hard facts.  Obamacare is not socialized medicine.  Medicare is socialized medicine (and most recips like it just fine, thanks).

    But by all means, believe what you want to believe.

     

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName9. Show UserName9's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to UserName9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?[/QUOTE]

    President Obama didn't pardon or reprieve anyone. He changed a law by decree. It's a different thing.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Details, details.

    I have come to beleive that those who say they support Obamacare actually don't.  What they support is socialized medicine, which we keep getting told Obamacare is not.  

    So, either Obamacare is a version of socialized medince, or the left is uninformed.

    [/QUOTE]


    Funny....most people I know on the left know exactly what the law is and what it does. 

    And many of us have been living with a version of it for about 8 years in MA now.

    [/QUOTE]

    Still leaning on that broken comparison?

    What was Romneycare, 28 pages?

    With Obamacare weighing in at 2,700, it is impossible for the two bills/programs to be the same.

    That aside:  The situation in Massachusetts due to Romneycare is not good.  Costs were not cut, half the doctors are refusing participants.  Emergency room visits are not down. 

    Not exactly a stellar result.  one might be tempted to use this to prove that government is not the answer.

    [/QUOTE]


    What was Romneycare, 28 pages? ......  Lie # 1

    With Obamacare weighing in at 2,700 .......  Lie # 2

    The situation in Massachusetts due to Romneycare is not good......98% of population insured

    Costs were not cut........They slowed, 1/2 a lie

    half the doctors are refusing participants......lie # 3

    Emergency room visits are not down......lie # 4

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slomag's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?[/QUOTE]

    President Obama didn't pardon or reprieve anyone. He changed a law by decree. It's a different thing.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Details, details.

    I have come to beleive that those who say they support Obamacare actually don't.  What they support is socialized medicine, which we keep getting told Obamacare is not.  

    So, either Obamacare is a version of socialized medince, or the left is uninformed.

    [/QUOTE]

    Labels only frighten the simple-minded.

    Unless you support single payer, you in some way support free market medicine.  And unless you want to completely wipe out subsidies, medicare & medicaid, you in some way support socialized medicine.  Even hospitals and ambulance services contract with local government - you can't pick an ambulance off of Yelp.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    The label seems to have frightened you, but I am not sure why.  

    Your single payer statement is demonstrably false.  Obamacare is not a free market solution, unless you consider paying a fine, er, I mean taxes, for NOT purchasing health care insurance a "free market choice".  The federal government determines what will be covered, determines who will get a waiver, and who will not.  It determines who pays what kind of fine, and it determines what proceedures your doctor can offer based on your age and status.

    Everything is controlled and manged through the Federal Government. When a change is announced, it is not an annoncement from a private company, but a pronoucement from someone in the federal goverment:  They are in the pilot's seat, and that alone should open your eyes.  It is not a honest free-will, or free-market transaction, it is  a compelled/forced transaction from/by the federal government.

    Despite all this, you treat Obamacare as a "market".  It is nothing of the sort.

    Now, you can be for Obamacare, and say we are best served by the federal government controlling health care, but be honest, unlike the politicians were when they sold it.  

    Period.

    [/QUOTE]

    Obamacare sets minimum requirements for insurance policies.  If that disqualifies it as a free market, then what is a free market?  You can't buy a house, car, food, toy or article of clothing that isn't regulated in some way.

    And the flip-side - prior to Obamacare, 46% of all health costs were paid by the government.  That's not socialized medicine?

    I'm happy to continue in this new direction, but (speaking of honesty) let's put to rest the OP topic - Obama is undeniably within his authority to grant reprieves, and there's no real conservative argument to support the notion he is 'out of control'.  Agreed?

     

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ronreganfan. Show ronreganfan's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to slomag's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slomag's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?[/QUOTE]

    President Obama didn't pardon or reprieve anyone. He changed a law by decree. It's a different thing.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Details, details.

    I have come to beleive that those who say they support Obamacare actually don't.  What they support is socialized medicine, which we keep getting told Obamacare is not.  

    So, either Obamacare is a version of socialized medince, or the left is uninformed.

    [/QUOTE]

    Labels only frighten the simple-minded.

    Unless you support single payer, you in some way support free market medicine.  And unless you want to completely wipe out subsidies, medicare & medicaid, you in some way support socialized medicine.  Even hospitals and ambulance services contract with local government - you can't pick an ambulance off of Yelp.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    The label seems to have frightened you, but I am not sure why.  

    Your single payer statement is demonstrably false.  Obamacare is not a free market solution, unless you consider paying a fine, er, I mean taxes, for NOT purchasing health care insurance a "free market choice".  The federal government determines what will be covered, determines who will get a waiver, and who will not.  It determines who pays what kind of fine, and it determines what proceedures your doctor can offer based on your age and status.

    Everything is controlled and manged through the Federal Government. When a change is announced, it is not an annoncement from a private company, but a pronoucement from someone in the federal goverment:  They are in the pilot's seat, and that alone should open your eyes.  It is not a honest free-will, or free-market transaction, it is  a compelled/forced transaction from/by the federal government.

    Despite all this, you treat Obamacare as a "market".  It is nothing of the sort.

    Now, you can be for Obamacare, and say we are best served by the federal government controlling health care, but be honest, unlike the politicians were when they sold it.  

    Period.

    [/QUOTE]

    Obamacare sets minimum requirements for insurance policies.  If that disqualifies it as a free market, then what is a free market?  You can't buy a house, car, food, toy or article of clothing that isn't regulated in some way.

    And the flip-side - prior to Obamacare, 46% of all health costs were paid by the government.  That's not socialized medicine?

    I'm happy to continue in this new direction, but (speaking of honesty) let's put to rest the OP topic - Obama is undeniably within his authority to grant reprieves, and there's no real conservative argument to support the notion he is 'out of control'.  Agreed?

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    OK, I see you are solidly on the side of believing that government knows better what to do with your money than you do.  Sad.

    Your choice in health care has been reduced to the size of your deductible, for all intents and purposes.  I guess you would be happy with the government taking over the fast food industry, as I am clearly spending too much time eating fatty foods.  Maybe the government, upon taking over McDonalds, can hand me one of those salad things, instead of the big mac and fries I want.  Oh, and if I can't afford the salad, they will gladly pay for it in some measure.  Should I not want to buy the salad, they will fine me, or take 1% of my income.

    So, you can see in this silly example that Obamacare does more than set minimum standards.  It doesn't take 2,700 pages to set minimum standards for health care, heck, it isn't even the reason for Obamacare.  The reason WAS to provide insurance for the 30-50 million who supposedly don't have health care, a number that the left contstantly changes, and doesn't explain.  

    Sure, the 46% of health care provided by gov't is socialism, and I'm not down with that. It is not a legitimate function of the federal government.

    Funny how the problems with health care seem to track with the increasing government control of health care.  It is like they started off with one bad idea, and continued to compound it until, as an act of truly missing the point, spring Obamacare on us.

    I would say Merry Marxist, but I don't know his birthday offhand.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    So fun watching people try to compare the health care system as if it behaves like or resembles any other market we have.

    Apparently, there's still a whole lot of confusion about the state of health care before reform, correlation without causation fallacies, and the myths and hearsay that appear to be the right-wing's only genuine contribution to the health insurance debate in the last 5 years.

     

    The very idea that we should not endeavor at all costs to provide the fundamental human needs of food, shelter and medicine to our most unfortunate citizens and their children will always mystify me.  

    It's "let them eat cake" all over again (and that didn't end well either).

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Obama is out of control. Where are the Republicans?

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slomag's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slomag's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]Not having insurance is an Offence against the United States.  Waiving the fine is a reprieve.  What's the problem here?[/QUOTE]

    President Obama didn't pardon or reprieve anyone. He changed a law by decree. It's a different thing.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Details, details.

    I have come to beleive that those who say they support Obamacare actually don't.  What they support is socialized medicine, which we keep getting told Obamacare is not.  

    So, either Obamacare is a version of socialized medince, or the left is uninformed.

    [/QUOTE]

    Labels only frighten the simple-minded.

    Unless you support single payer, you in some way support free market medicine.  And unless you want to completely wipe out subsidies, medicare & medicaid, you in some way support socialized medicine.  Even hospitals and ambulance services contract with local government - you can't pick an ambulance off of Yelp.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    The label seems to have frightened you, but I am not sure why.  

    Your single payer statement is demonstrably false.  Obamacare is not a free market solution, unless you consider paying a fine, er, I mean taxes, for NOT purchasing health care insurance a "free market choice".  The federal government determines what will be covered, determines who will get a waiver, and who will not.  It determines who pays what kind of fine, and it determines what proceedures your doctor can offer based on your age and status.

    Everything is controlled and manged through the Federal Government. When a change is announced, it is not an annoncement from a private company, but a pronoucement from someone in the federal goverment:  They are in the pilot's seat, and that alone should open your eyes.  It is not a honest free-will, or free-market transaction, it is  a compelled/forced transaction from/by the federal government.

    Despite all this, you treat Obamacare as a "market".  It is nothing of the sort.

    Now, you can be for Obamacare, and say we are best served by the federal government controlling health care, but be honest, unlike the politicians were when they sold it.  

    Period.

    [/QUOTE]

    Obamacare sets minimum requirements for insurance policies.  If that disqualifies it as a free market, then what is a free market?  You can't buy a house, car, food, toy or article of clothing that isn't regulated in some way.

    And the flip-side - prior to Obamacare, 46% of all health costs were paid by the government.  That's not socialized medicine?

    I'm happy to continue in this new direction, but (speaking of honesty) let's put to rest the OP topic - Obama is undeniably within his authority to grant reprieves, and there's no real conservative argument to support the notion he is 'out of control'.  Agreed?

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    OK, I see you are solidly on the side of believing that government knows better what to do with your money than you do.  Sad.

    Your choice in health care has been reduced to the size of your deductible, for all intents and purposes.  I guess you would be happy with the government taking over the fast food industry, as I am clearly spending too much time eating fatty foods.  Maybe the government, upon taking over McDonalds, can hand me one of those salad things, instead of the big mac and fries I want.  Oh, and if I can't afford the salad, they will gladly pay for it in some measure.  Should I not want to buy the salad, they will fine me, or take 1% of my income.

    So, you can see in this silly example that Obamacare does more than set minimum standards.  It doesn't take 2,700 pages to set minimum standards for health care, heck, it isn't even the reason for Obamacare.  The reason WAS to provide insurance for the 30-50 million who supposedly don't have health care, a number that the left contstantly changes, and doesn't explain.  

    Sure, the 46% of health care provided by gov't is socialism, and I'm not down with that. It is not a legitimate function of the federal government.

    Funny how the problems with health care seem to track with the increasing government control of health care.  It is like they started off with one bad idea, and continued to compound it until, as an act of truly missing the point, spring Obamacare on us.

    I would say Merry Marxist, but I don't know his birthday offhand.

    [/QUOTE]

    OK, I take it you must agree that the notion that any of this is unconstitutional or outside Obama's authority is ridiculous, or you would be mounting some sort of argument to the contrary. I guess we can put that to rest or some conservative taking exception to that idea (or the original poster himself) would have jumped in.  So now we can turn this thread toward a broader discussion of what is or is not socialized medicine.

    There are regulations on the fast food industry - you can't order a rare big mac, and you can't order a #2 combo with a side of crack.  But the mistake you are making is considering poor coverage a 'choice'.  What if McDonalds gave you the choice to buy a tiny big mac for 49 cents?  The picture on the wall makes it look pretty filling, so when you fork over your 49 cents you probably expect to be full, but when you've actually finished eating it, you're still hungry, and you realize just how useless a 49 cent big mac really was.   You'll know better next time - good thing it wasn't something like a $20K hospital bill.

    The uninsured and underinsured are cut from the same cloth - if you had catastrophic coverage only it was because that was all you could afford.  So if you get really chronically sick, what chance do you have of covering your deductible and co-pays?  So the minimum standards and insuring the uninsured were both aspects of Obamacare - they both aim at stopping the financial ruin of middle-class americans simply because they get sick.

    2,700 pages is a right-wing talking point.  The word count is about twice what the medicare part D law was - one aspect of Medicare.  Or about the size of a Harry Potter novel.

    Ask yourself this - if single-payer is 100% socialized medicine, and pre-obamacare is 46% socialized medicine, what percent socialized medicine is Obamacare?  Because if it's close to single payer, maybe you should advocate for that, just to prove it will fail.  And if it's close to pre-Obamacare, maybe the whole 'socialized medicine' rant is another case of the right pounding their fists over something that doesn't really exist.

    Merry Christmas Ron - I'd ask you what Santa is bringing you but I know that Commie b8stard won't get past your missile defense shield :)

     

     

     

     

     

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