Re: Politician raises abortion issue as a 'social issues' distraction
posted at 2/18/2013 11:51 AM EST
In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:
In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:
abortions do kill
Only if one assumes the fetus has been equivalent to a human being from the moment of conception.
I do not see that removing a half-inch long collection of cells is "killing" anything.
I'm a lot less comfortable about the notion close to the point of viability. After all, if the thing isn't truly a viable baby yet, it often looks very much like one. But I respect the decision.
Roe said "we're not philosophers (or Gods) so how can we say when the line between zygote and individual human being is crossed. Well I am - or was - a philosopher and I daresay nobody can ever determine that.
In fact, if you seriously studied the existing texts on "personal identity" you would be extremely hard pressed to sit down and write something convincing us that a 6 month old is truly a person.
("Personal identity" in philosophy is not about quests for self discovery..... it's a study of what it is to be an individual object, an individual person, in light of the fact that every last thing about us - what we like of to think of as a single existing entity - changes constantly. How is it that "I" am still "an I", more importantly, the same "I").
It is definitely an it. It crawls, laughs, cries, and dirties itself. But does it even know that it is an it yet? Does it know that it is a particularly "it", the same it that existed the day before and will exist the next day?
It's conscious but not self-conscious. The latter would seem to be one prerequisite to being a full human being.
But I digress. "If you don't want an abortion, don't get one" works.
People fighting abortion think they're fighting "killing" but they aren't.
Until someone kills me with a fetus, it's not a clear gotcha line to "if you don't want a gun, don't get one"
My snark answer was for Reuben who just dismisses any interest in the ethics of life question surrounding terminiation of a pregnancy; which I accept as law.
Pink's retort with 55 million abortions since 1973 shocked me as a very high number until I checked a few facts.
- In 2008, approximately 1.21 million abortions took place in the U.S., down from an estimated 1.29 million in 2002, 1.31 million in 2000 and 1.36 million in 1996. From 1973 through 2008, nearly 50 million legal abortions have occurred in the U.S. (AGI).
· In 2008, 12 women died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortion (CDC).
· The number of deaths attributable to legal induced abortion was highest before the 1980s (CDC).
· In 1972 (the year before abortion was federally legalized), a total of 24 women died from causes known to be associated with legal abortions, and 39 died as a result of known illegal abortions(CDC).
My moral dilemma with abortion increases pretty quickly from implantation to the 13 week. I never really thought that much about it until I became a grandfather after I was invited in to see the sonogram when the gender of the child was determined. My daughter had sent us weekly images of generic fetal development from her sixth week on and it is amazing to watch the changes. Static photos aren't the same as was life visable with the sonogram; a fetus with a beating heart in the womb responding to external prodding.