Possible compromise on immigration reform takes shape

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    Re: Possible compromise on immigration reform takes shape

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

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    On the other hand, it's refreshing to hear Sen. McCain acknowledge the one-and-only reason for the GOP going ahead with this:

    Votes.

    GOP needs more votes.

    Got to give it up for that kind of naked, wrinkly honesty.

     

     

     



    Yes the GOP has discovered that they are on the wrong side of the demographics.

     

    So for the thinking side of the GOP they know its evolve or die.  I think fighting for free enterpise over big government is more important to the future of the country then some social positions that only represent a growing minority.

     



    It's not just a social issue.  Immigration reform is first and foremost an economic issue...one of the most important ones we've got.

     

    Make no mistake.  So-called "free enterprise" is behind this all the way.

     

     

     



    The economic recovery is a huge issue but its not determined by a guest worker program.  I do understand that the guest worker program is something that the GOP has wanted for sometime; as it is especially important to the southern agricultural states and their products importantance to the whole US.

     

     



    It's not just guest workers, either.  In some ways, our entire economy hinges upon the immigration question.

     

    What do companies want more than anything?  Consumer Demand for their products and services.  More demand = more profits.  They can't successfully market to people who live in the shadows; they want them out in the open, shopping and spending, living and working.

    The birthrates are down for nearly every demo group in the country, except one.  Entire industries are built upon the next generations and what their tastes will be, where they will live, and who they aspire to be.

    It's foolish to focus on just the narrow sliver of ne'er-do-wells or the hypothetical jobs "lost" (that americans don't want to do anyway...ask them) all while missing the huge opportunities that the rest of the immigrants stand for.

     

     

     



    Companies can make more focusing on China's emerging consumer class.

     

    There was an interesting segment on NPR yesterday concening apple iphones and emerging overseas markets.  Apple likes to sell high end, yet "luxury" in reach for most smart phones that have features that people didn't even know they wanted never mind needed.

    The emerging markets are going to cause apple to stay its course or develop stripped down versions that will annoy or enrage their cult following fans.  This would be akin to the Jaguar rebadged Taurus or the Cadillac Cimaron.



    That's a dodge, and you know it.  We're talking about domestic markets, right here at home...who they serve and who will serve them.  Emerging markets are a separate issue.  You can't just send them all back and say, we'll get to you soon enough.

     

     

     
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    Re: Possible compromise on immigration reform takes shape

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

     

    In response to 12-Angry-Men's comment:

     

    And the xenophobic wingnuts reveal themselves yet again.

    From the first line of their post...

    "...57 percent of households headed by an immigrant (legal and illegal)..."


    From then on every bullet point is intentionally xenophobic.

    Rather than say these Americans (legal immigrants), they stick with the dog whistle of 'immigrant' rather than citizen or American.

    Rather than seperate the Americans from the illegal aliens, they obfuscate the numbers in order to appease the racist wingnut base.

    Pathetic, in order to get the numbers they wanted they had to lump Americans in with illegal immigrants to try and make their obviously racist, bigoted point.

     



    I think it just points out that we have an immigration problem.  

     

    In the prior immigration model late 1800's-early 1900's legal immigrants came here to earn a better way of life; not to get on welfare rolls, because there weren't welfare rolls; just private/religious charity. 

     



    And yet, even then we were trying to classify "desirables" and "undesirables" only by mistaking "race" for "nationality".

     

    That's most of what the current debate boils down to: "we want these, but not those".  The rest is (mostly legit) bureaucratic minutae that nobody wants to pay for.

     

     



    Yes, the Dillingham Report is an intersting document.

     

    The US was european centric in its immigration policies; which due to strong similarities supported for assimilation and it did develop the US into the melting pot that it was.

    My concern with today's immigrants is that they is that they don't want to assimilate and become one of us, they want to maintain who they are.  A common culture is a stonger nation while a multi-cultural place is more interesting to visit.

    Go ahead call me a natavist.



    That's two huge assumptions on your part couched in a morbid euphemism: "one of us".  20th century history shows that we assimilated them in due course, just like we've done for generations.

    Nativist is too kind a word.

    Look, I grew up in Lawrence, the "Immigrant City".  First it was the Irish, then the Germans, then French-Canadian, then Polish, Italian, Armenian, Puerto Rican, Vietnamese, etc, etc.  Every group had its own church, school, social club, etc.  You just can't say, well, this latest batch is no good.  Not only are you wrong, but it's unfair to so self-righteously assume one group does not deserve a chance while others did.

    And there is no real "common culture" in America.  It's a hodgepodge of everything and nothing, processed and packaged for our amusement.  We ARE multi-cultural whether you like it or not.  There's no going back, and why would we want to, anyway..?!

    This last bit of yours was so far off-base that it makes me wonder if you have some other agenda you're not saying.

     

     

     

     
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    Re: Possible compromise on immigration reform takes shape

    In response to NO MO O's comment:

    Another hypocracy is that after we reward the criminals we will do everything we can to get them jobs... jobs Americans are entitled to have.

     



    Why are they "entitled"?  What makes them so special that they don't have to work for it...?

    Doesn't sound very 'conservative' to me.

     

     
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    Re: Possible compromise on immigration reform takes shape

    In response to ComingLiberalCrackup's comment:

    "The birthrates are down for nearly every demo group in the country, except one.  Entire industries are built upon the next generations and what their tastes will be, where they will live, and who they aspire to be."

    Wow!  How does that jibe with the basic progressive worldview that population increases are destroying Mother Earth,  that people are parasites destroying natural resources,  and that Americans are selfish and greedy to want material things..

    Watch out! If liberals ever find out illegals are contributing to global warming, they will open internment camps quicker than FDR did to the Japanese...but no worries, Al Gore has spoken: immigrants have no carbon footprint.

    Birthrates being down is a problem , now, to be fixed by illegal immigrants?

    Immigrants get the progressive blessing to have 12 kids, to charge up the economy, and "entire industries can be built"... got it.



    I'm just telling you how it is.  Don't blame me if you don't like it that white folks aren't having babies.

    The economic powers that be are the ones gunning for this.  If you don't understand why that is, then I can't help you.

     
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    Re: Possible compromise on immigration reform takes shape

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    In response to Newtster's comment:

     

     

     

    -- A "tough but fair" path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants already living in the United States, but only after bolstering the nation's border security;

    -- Overhauling the country's legal immigration system, including attaching green cards to advanced degrees in science, technology, engineering, or math from U.S. universities;

    -- Establishing an employment verification system that holds employers accountable for hiring undocumented workers;

    -- Creating a guest-worker program for positions that Americans are either unable or unwilling to fill.

     

     

     

    This is fine except the first item.

     

    Our political leaders need to show respect for US citizenship. If anyone can come here illegally and then be given amnesty, then what good is citizenship?

     

    So for the 11 million that are here illegally, let them apply for guest worker status or go back where they came from and apply for legal citizenship. 

     

    There does not have to be some kind of expensive mass deportation. That is an absurd suggestion given by extremists that reject a rational solution. The first step to getting illegals to self-deport is to go after employers of illegals. These criminals need to be given jail time and serious fines. Responsibility should be at a personal level just like it is for financial filings of public companies. Ford gets caught hirining illegals, some executive is going to jail.

     

    THat will dry up the market for scab illegals to take jobs. WIll food cost more? Maybe so. Better to have a legal resident get a job at a decent wage then to employ illegals as slaves so we can get food a little cheaper. 

     



    This is why I don't trust the politicians to do the right thing here.  Citizens, i.e. those of us born or assimilated here, are simply the tools that pay for this.

     

    Why is this such a big deal to politicians?  votes.  The republicans ought ot consider that the perfect hispanic candidate, G. Bush, spoke very good spanish, spoke to spanish wspeaking groups often,supported amnesty, wanted to open the border between mexico completely, In fact announced the desire to open the border at the White House with Vincente Fox, on September 10, 2001 (does that date ring a bell?) and he only recieved 40% of the hispanic vote.

    This is a complete capitulation to the demcrats on the issue of votes.

     



    Romney would have won with 40% of the Hispanic vote.

     



    But, he didn't win 40% of the Hispanic vote.  No republican will.  The message is clear: politically, hand-outs beat hand-ups.

     
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    Re: Possible compromise on immigration reform takes shape

    In response to 12-Angry-Men's comment:

    The xenophobia afflicting the wingnut party is tantamount to committing political suicide.

    If the political message the wingnuts are advocating is appealing to less and less of the electorate then they can either adapt or go the way of the dodo bird.

    Judging from the tenor of the posts here, it's sounding more and more like a political version of natural selection with run it's course and the angry, old, white-guy wingnut party will continue to be irrelevent.

     

     

    Sen Ted Cruz (R), explained the predicament to The New Yorker's Ryan Lizza:

     

    "In not too many years, Texas could switch from being all Republican to all Democrat. If that happens, no Republican will ever again win the White House. New York and California are for the foreseeable future unalterably Democrat. If Texas turns bright blue, the electoral college math is simple. We won't be talking about Ohio, we won't be talking about Florida or Virginia, because it won't matter. If Texas is bright blue, you can't get to 270 electoral votes. The Republican Party would cease to exist."



    Probably true. So, tell me why capitulation is the strategy that will save the republicans?

     
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    Re: Possible compromise on immigration reform takes shape

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

     

    In response to 12-Angry-Men's comment:

     

    And the xenophobic wingnuts reveal themselves yet again.

    From the first line of their post...

    "...57 percent of households headed by an immigrant (legal and illegal)..."


    From then on every bullet point is intentionally xenophobic.

    Rather than say these Americans (legal immigrants), they stick with the dog whistle of 'immigrant' rather than citizen or American.

    Rather than seperate the Americans from the illegal aliens, they obfuscate the numbers in order to appease the racist wingnut base.

    Pathetic, in order to get the numbers they wanted they had to lump Americans in with illegal immigrants to try and make their obviously racist, bigoted point.

     



    I think it just points out that we have an immigration problem.  

     

    In the prior immigration model late 1800's-early 1900's legal immigrants came here to earn a better way of life; not to get on welfare rolls, because there weren't welfare rolls; just private/religious charity. 

     



    And yet, even then we were trying to classify "desirables" and "undesirables" only by mistaking "race" for "nationality".

     

    That's most of what the current debate boils down to: "we want these, but not those".  The rest is (mostly legit) bureaucratic minutae that nobody wants to pay for.

     

     



    Yes, the Dillingham Report is an intersting document.

     

    The US was european centric in its immigration policies; which due to strong similarities supported for assimilation and it did develop the US into the melting pot that it was.

    My concern with today's immigrants is that they is that they don't want to assimilate and become one of us, they want to maintain who they are.  A common culture is a stonger nation while a multi-cultural place is more interesting to visit.

    Go ahead call me a natavist.

     



    That's two huge assumptions on your part couched in a morbid euphemism: "one of us".  20th century history shows that we assimilated them in due course, just like we've done for generations.

     

    Nativist is too kind a word.

    Look, I grew up in Lawrence, the "Immigrant City".  First it was the Irish, then the Germans, then French-Canadian, then Polish, Italian, Armenian, Puerto Rican, Vietnamese, etc, etc.  Every group had its own church, school, social club, etc.  You just can't say, well, this latest batch is no good.  Not only are you wrong, but it's unfair to so self-righteously assume one group does not deserve a chance while others did.

    And there is no real "common culture" in America.  It's a hodgepodge of everything and nothing, processed and packaged for our amusement.  We ARE multi-cultural whether you like it or not.  There's no going back, and why would we want to, anyway..?!

    This last bit of yours was so far off-base that it makes me wonder if you have some other agenda you're not saying.

     

     

     



    The latest batch appears to have less of a desire to assimilate.  They want bilingual services from schools to government forms and ballots.  In the earlier waves they wanted to fit in and they wanted to support themselves.

    I have no other agenda; although in a new immigratiion policy there should be quotas and yearly limits so that immigrants don't overwhelm us.  

    I support change on a slower less reckless course.

     
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    Re: Possible compromise on immigration reform takes shape

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    On the other hand, it's refreshing to hear Sen. McCain acknowledge the one-and-only reason for the GOP going ahead with this:

    Votes.

    GOP needs more votes.

    Got to give it up for that kind of naked, wrinkly honesty.

     

     

     



    Yes the GOP has discovered that they are on the wrong side of the demographics.

     

    So for the thinking side of the GOP they know its evolve or die.  I think fighting for free enterpise over big government is more important to the future of the country then some social positions that only represent a growing minority.

     



    It's not just a social issue.  Immigration reform is first and foremost an economic issue...one of the most important ones we've got.

     

    Make no mistake.  So-called "free enterprise" is behind this all the way.

     

     

     



    The economic recovery is a huge issue but its not determined by a guest worker program.  I do understand that the guest worker program is something that the GOP has wanted for sometime; as it is especially important to the southern agricultural states and their products importantance to the whole US.

     

     



    It's not just guest workers, either.  In some ways, our entire economy hinges upon the immigration question.

     

    What do companies want more than anything?  Consumer Demand for their products and services.  More demand = more profits.  They can't successfully market to people who live in the shadows; they want them out in the open, shopping and spending, living and working.

    The birthrates are down for nearly every demo group in the country, except one.  Entire industries are built upon the next generations and what their tastes will be, where they will live, and who they aspire to be.

    It's foolish to focus on just the narrow sliver of ne'er-do-wells or the hypothetical jobs "lost" (that americans don't want to do anyway...ask them) all while missing the huge opportunities that the rest of the immigrants stand for.

     

     

     



    Companies can make more focusing on China's emerging consumer class.

     

    There was an interesting segment on NPR yesterday concening apple iphones and emerging overseas markets.  Apple likes to sell high end, yet "luxury" in reach for most smart phones that have features that people didn't even know they wanted never mind needed.

    The emerging markets are going to cause apple to stay its course or develop stripped down versions that will annoy or enrage their cult following fans.  This would be akin to the Jaguar rebadged Taurus or the Cadillac Cimaron.

     



    That's a dodge, and you know it.  We're talking about domestic markets, right here at home...who they serve and who will serve them.  Emerging markets are a separate issue.  You can't just send them all back and say, we'll get to you soon enough.

     

     

     



    Yes US emerging markets are a separate issue; significant but not as significant as China, Indonesia, Brazi...........

     
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    Re: Possible compromise on immigration reform takes shape

    In response to NO MO O's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    In response to NO MO O's comment:

     

    Another hypocracy is that after we reward the criminals we will do everything we can to get them jobs... jobs Americans are entitled to have.

     

     



    Why are they "entitled"?  What makes them so special that they don't have to work for it...?

     

    Doesn't sound very 'conservative' to me.

     

     



     

    You're smarter than that.

    Are you saying they are not currently entitled?



    Of course they are.  Americans don't nearly know how good they've got it, which is why it often takes an immigrant to point it out to us.

     

     

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