School indoctrination of kids

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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

     



    Which class, exactly, is the 'morals' class?

    Every class that involves tests. Everytime a teacher talks about cheating they are teaching students morals.

    In grade school level they also teach students about not stealing things from other students' desks

    How about plagarism? Do teachers not talk to students about how wrong it is?

    We learn a lot when it comes to morals and ethics in school. Almost as much as we do at home

     




     
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    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

     

     



    Which class, exactly, is the 'morals' class?

    Every class that involves tests. Everytime a teacher talks about cheating they are teaching students morals.

    In grade school level they also teach students about not stealing things from other students' desks

    How about plagarism? Do teachers not talk to students about how wrong it is?

    We learn a lot when it comes to morals and ethics in school. Almost as much as we do at home

     

     




     



    Saying "Don't Cheat" is not exactly a lesson in morality, is it...?  More of a threat.

    These also blur the line between ethics and morals somewhat.  

    Many schools have an "honor code", but that belies the 'honor' any student feels or sees in the school itself.  A crapppy school could be seen as undeserving.

    A philosophy class could provide the foundations of ethical and/or moral behavior.  (My high school had a philosophy/religion requirement to graduate.)

    Or perhaps some schools teach students not necessarily what's right or wrong, but what they can get away with....

     

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    Many schools have an "honor code", but that belies the 'honor' any student feels or sees in the school itself.  A crapppy school could be seen as undeserving.

    Or perhaps some schools teach students not necessarily what's right or wrong, but what they can get away with.... 



    IMHO honor and integrity are instilled by family and at home as well as stewarded by example. If, a parent conducts themselves with his integrity and in an honorable way consistently and communicates this with his/her children then the school should not be able to have a negative influence in this behavior

     
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    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    IMHO honor and integrity are instilled by family and at home as well as stewarded by example. If, a parent conducts themselves with his integrity and in an honorable way consistently and communicates this with his/her children then the school should not be able to have a negative influence in this behavior



    I would be inclined to agree, but I'm not sure the record bears this out.

    Schools can be heavy-handed in their own right and/or favorable to certain ideals over the concerns of the many.  This isn't unusual, but it also doesn't mean that schools have the authority of their convictions.

    Ultimately, yes, ethics and morality should be taught at home before a child enters school, but we all know that home lives can vary enormously.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

     

     



    Which class, exactly, is the 'morals' class?

    Every class that involves tests. Everytime a teacher talks about cheating they are teaching students morals.

    In grade school level they also teach students about not stealing things from other students' desks

    How about plagarism? Do teachers not talk to students about how wrong it is?

    We learn a lot when it comes to morals and ethics in school. Almost as much as we do at home

     

     




     

     



    Saying "Don't Cheat" is not exactly a lesson in morality, is it...?  More of a threat.

    Not sure where you went to school but my teachers didn't just say "don't cheat". My teachers explained how cheating is wrong. And that yes, if you do cheat, there are consequences. Just like there are consequences if one gets caught stealing from a neighbor or a store, etc.

     




     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

     

     



    Which class, exactly, is the 'morals' class?

    Every class that involves tests. Everytime a teacher talks about cheating they are teaching students morals.

    In grade school level they also teach students about not stealing things from other students' desks

    How about plagarism? Do teachers not talk to students about how wrong it is?

    We learn a lot when it comes to morals and ethics in school. Almost as much as we do at home

     

     




     

     



    Saying "Don't Cheat" is not exactly a lesson in morality, is it...?  More of a threat.

    Not sure where you went to school but my teachers didn't just say "don't cheat". My teachers explained how cheating is wrong. And that yes, if you do cheat, there are consequences. Just like there are consequences if one gets caught stealing from a neighbor or a store, etc.

     


    OK, and that's fine...

    ...but morality means there are consequences even if the person doesn't get caught in the act.  If a student continues to cheat and doesn't get caught, then the moral lesson is somehow not being learned.

    My teachers taught what it meant, too...including why allowing friends to copy off tests is just as wrong.  (I was most often copied from, not the copier.)

     

    Note: I apologize if I steered this thread boat too far asea, but philosophically, this topic holds some interest for me.  Perhaps the more prescient examples are the Atlanta-area teachers being perp walked (and some charged with actual theft!) due to the cheating scandals down there.  It's riveting stuff and offers some lessons of its own on our instant gratification-prone society.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

     

     



    Which class, exactly, is the 'morals' class?

    Every class that involves tests. Everytime a teacher talks about cheating they are teaching students morals.

    In grade school level they also teach students about not stealing things from other students' desks

    How about plagarism? Do teachers not talk to students about how wrong it is?

    We learn a lot when it comes to morals and ethics in school. Almost as much as we do at home

     

     




     

     



    Saying "Don't Cheat" is not exactly a lesson in morality, is it...?  More of a threat.

    Not sure where you went to school but my teachers didn't just say "don't cheat". My teachers explained how cheating is wrong. And that yes, if you do cheat, there are consequences. Just like there are consequences if one gets caught stealing from a neighbor or a store, etc.

     

     


    OK, and that's fine...

    ...but morality means there are consequences even if the person doesn't get caught in the act.  If a student continues to cheat and doesn't get caught, then the moral lesson is somehow not being learned.

    How can there be consequences for those who don't get caught??? Morality either means something to a person or it doesn't. It's not about getting caught. I don't steal because I'm afraid of getting caught. I don't steal because I know it's wrong. People who have no issue with stealing are people for whom morality doesn't mean anything.

     

    My teachers taught what it meant, too...including why allowing friends to copy off tests is just as wrong.  (I was most often copied from, not the copier.)

     

    Note: I apologize if I steered this thread boat too far asea, but philosophically, this topic holds some interest for me.  Perhaps the more prescient examples are the Atlanta-area teachers being perp walked (and some charged with actual theft!) due to the cheating scandals down there.  It's riveting stuff and offers some lessons of its own on our instant gratification-prone society.

     




     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    How can there be consequences for those who don't get caught??? Morality either means something to a person or it doesn't. It's not about getting caught. I don't steal because I'm afraid of getting caught. I don't steal because I know it's wrong. People who have no issue with stealing are people for whom morality doesn't mean anything.

     



    Exactly.  So the consequence of stealing is the guilt you would feel whether you got caught or not.

    And yet in life, there are certainly gray areas...fudging your tax returns, for instance.  Something might be unethical but still be legal, like adultery.  Then again, a very pious, religious person - presumably moral - can still commit murder - by some definition an immoral act.

    Children can rationalize at an earlier age than most people think.  Soon enough, they find out that almost everyone they know has got away with something at some point in their lives, no matter how small (i.e., taking a grape at the grocery store) without much externalized penalty.

    The problem with morality is that it's ultimately a human construct and thus imperfect.  Moral dilemmas are everywhere; moral purity is non-existent.  Ethics, however, follows certain rules and is materially defined, which is why they often exist in a legal framework.

    (Again, I apologize for the philo 201 stuff)

     

     

     
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    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

     

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    In response to jedwardnicky's comment:

     

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    In response to jedwardnicky's comment:

     

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    In response to Sistersledge's comment:

     

    Do you want to know what is wrong with the educational system in this country ...... the states in our country combined spend almost 5 times more money on prisons than they do on education .

     



    Clearly education is not keeping people out of prison.  Maybe time to bring the bible back to school, teach some morals.

     

     



    You just went "full retard".

     

     




    Provocative point, followed by your insipid comment. You must be fun at parties.

     

     



    Your post was insipid to begin with. And that's being kind. And yes, I am fun at parties.

     

     




    Kinda doubt that you get invited to many parties, but, leaving that aside:

     

    morals are taught in school. The only issue up for discussion is what (or who's) morals?  Currently, it appears the progressive morals of free love, living of the government, and Gaia worship seem to be in vogue. 

    Would you agree?

     

     




    Which class, exactly, is the 'morals' class?

    Who's morals are to be taught?

    Do you agree with every moral of every person in your town? Do you even know the morals of all the people in your town?

    Your post is quite ironic especially in light of the subject of this thread, that morals are being taught in school but apparently they are the 'wrong' morals... so the OP doesn't want morals taught in school.

     




    I didn't know that I was under an obligation to agree with the OP.

     

    How is my post ironic?  Is it that you prefer the current morality being taught in the schools?

    I see some of it as good, some of it as bad.  examples:

    It is good that children are being taught to respect those who have different opinions, as long as they are not christians.  We dopn't want those christian opinions in the schools.  Those folks are just crazy, wanting to call Christmas Christmas, and the Easter bunny the Easter bunny.  We can't have such radical concepts in our schools.  Best to stick with teaching them the proper methods of sexual activity, how to use condoms, and the like.

    It is bad that children are being taught that the constitution limits the reach and scope of government.  I mean, how would we get by in this world if government is not there to wipe our posteriors?  We need to avoid teaching the 2nd Amendment as law, and relegate it to it's proper place, as a relic from a time when government couldn't be trusted.  We all know government is completely trust worthy.

    So, it is a mixed bag, as you can see.

     




    You have no idea what is actually taught in school.  Right wing paranoid fantasies are not the reality. 

     

    But what is taught is the acceptance of diversity and that MUST drive you crazy.  Gays are a cancer to you after all. 

    You are better suited living in Calvinist Geneva.  Now those were your kind of morals!  And they enforced them by burning those that didn't accept them.  Burn, baby burn...



    Oh, man.  I see I've done it now.  I've evidently clearly identified what the left is teaching in our schools.

    You obviously are too tightly wound to see the joke.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to jedwardnicky's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    In response to jedwardnicky's comment:

     

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    In response to jedwardnicky's comment:

     

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    In response to Sistersledge's comment:

     

    Do you want to know what is wrong with the educational system in this country ...... the states in our country combined spend almost 5 times more money on prisons than they do on education .

     



    Clearly education is not keeping people out of prison.  Maybe time to bring the bible back to school, teach some morals.

     

     



    You just went "full retard".

     

     




    Provocative point, followed by your insipid comment. You must be fun at parties.

     

     



    Your post was insipid to begin with. And that's being kind. And yes, I am fun at parties.

     

     




    Kinda doubt that you get invited to many parties, but, leaving that aside:

     

    morals are taught in school. The only issue up for discussion is what (or who's) morals?  Currently, it appears the progressive morals of free love, living of the government, and Gaia worship seem to be in vogue. 

    Would you agree?

     



    Morals are taught in school? I thought the church was responsible for that. But then seeing how the church has so sadly and utterly failed.....

     



    So, I seeyou agree with me that morals are taught in schools.  now the idscussion is who's morals are being taught?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    Christ....my post had not one disparaging remark. Not one cuss word. Yet it gets pulled. Unreal.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

     

     



    Which class, exactly, is the 'morals' class?

    Every class that involves tests. Everytime a teacher talks about cheating they are teaching students morals.

    In grade school level they also teach students about not stealing things from other students' desks

    How about plagarism? Do teachers not talk to students about how wrong it is?

    We learn a lot when it comes to morals and ethics in school. Almost as much as we do at home

     

     




     

     



    Saying "Don't Cheat" is not exactly a lesson in morality, is it...?  More of a threat.

     

    These also blur the line between ethics and morals somewhat.  

    Many schools have an "honor code", but that belies the 'honor' any student feels or sees in the school itself.  A crapppy school could be seen as undeserving.

    A philosophy class could provide the foundations of ethical and/or moral behavior.  (My high school had a philosophy/religion requirement to graduate.)

    Or perhaps some schools teach students not necessarily what's right or wrong, but what they can get away with....

     

     



    Don't cheat is without a doubt a moral lesson.  Cheating is stealing.

    It doesn't require a class, though that might help.  It requires application, of whihc cheating is a great example.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

    How can there be consequences for those who don't get caught??? Morality either means something to a person or it doesn't. It's not about getting caught. I don't steal because I'm afraid of getting caught. I don't steal because I know it's wrong. People who have no issue with stealing are people for whom morality doesn't mean anything.

     

     



    Exactly.  So the consequence of stealing is the guilt you would feel whether you got caught or not.

     

    And yet in life, there are certainly gray areas...fudging your tax returns, for instance.  Something might be unethical but still be legal, like adultery.  Then again, a very pious, religious person - presumably moral - can still commit murder - by some definition an immoral act.

    Children can rationalize at an earlier age than most people think.  Soon enough, they find out that almost everyone they know has got away with something at some point in their lives, no matter how small (i.e., taking a grape at the grocery store) without much externalized penalty.

    The problem with morality is that it's ultimately a human construct and thus imperfect.  Moral dilemmas are everywhere; moral purity is non-existent.  Ethics, however, follows certain rules and is materially defined, which is why they often exist in a legal framework.

    (Again, I apologize for the philo 201 stuff)

     

     



    You are making a great distinction between morality and legality.  I do appreciate it.

    Ethics is just moral philosophy, so no argument there.  There is a difference, however, from teaching ethics, and teaching morality.  Teaching morality is like saying:  Global warming is bad.  Ethics is teaching how one arrives at the moral teaching of global warming being bad.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    Don't cheat is without a doubt a moral lesson.  Cheating is stealing.


    No, it's more of a command.  A moral lesson would be more like: "Cheating is stealing and stealing is wrong, because x, y, and z...."

    Parables are examples of moral lessons, albeit based in shifting colloquialisms.

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    You are making a great distinction between morality and legality.  I do appreciate it.

    Ethics is just moral philosophy, so no argument there.  There is a difference, however, from teaching ethics, and teaching morality.  Teaching morality is like saying:  Global warming is bad.  Ethics is teaching how one arrives at the moral teaching of global warming being bad.



    See, I view ethics as the basis for a philosophy of morality...much like logic is the basis for reason.

    I also see distinctions between teaching the concept of ethics vs. teaching ethical behavior vs. establishing ethical rules of behavior that students should follow.

     

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: School indoctrination of kids

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

     

    You are making a great distinction between morality and legality.  I do appreciate it.

    Ethics is just moral philosophy, so no argument there.  There is a difference, however, from teaching ethics, and teaching morality.  Teaching morality is like saying:  Global warming is bad.  Ethics is teaching how one arrives at the moral teaching of global warming being bad.

     



    See, I view ethics as the basis for a philosophy of morality...much like logic is the basis for reason.

     

    I also see distinctions between teaching the concept of ethics vs. teaching ethical behavior vs. establishing ethical rules of behavior that students should follow.

     

     



    Yep. I'm with yah. I see the differences as well.

    still, I am puzzled by people who claim morality is not being reached in the schools. I think that's a forgone conclusion.  I. Think the more interesting question is what, or who's morality is being taught.

     
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