Should this be treated as a hate crime??

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TeddyffromNH. Show TeddyffromNH's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime?? : Certainly not the way most people would phrase it.  How about the right to be stupid as long as you cause no harm to others?  That covers a host of sins.  But I just don't see anyone making such a claim in a court of law.
    Posted by Reubenhop


    Thank you Counselor, your cover has now officially been blown! 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from GreginMedford. Show GreginMedford's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    See Xaph's thread on Eroc Holder.  Basically what the idiot is saying is that some groups are entitled to their hate, and therefore hate crime law doesn't apply
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TeddyffromNH. Show TeddyffromNH's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:

    I wonder if Sonia Sotmayor would consider this a hate crime? My guess is she would say it can't be a hate crime if the victims are white.
    Posted by bobc33


    Yes, you are correct.  This has been confirmed by the chief law enforcement douccchebag, Eric Holder.



     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from bobc33. Show bobc33's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    See Xaph's thread on Eroc Holder.  Basically what the idiot is saying is that some groups are entitled to their hate, and therefore hate crime law doesn't apply
    Posted by GreginMedford


    What is the title of that thread?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from GreginMedford. Show GreginMedford's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    Here Bob, its in National

    http://www.boston.com/community/forums.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aNewsForum%3a10629Discussion%3aee4b67e9-c583-48fe-9cf1-4ee224c07f7a
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from gabootwo2006. Show gabootwo2006's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime?? : Interesting story, and thanks for sharing, but it doesn't really support your conclusion.  I think these are two very different situations...apples and artichokes.
    Posted by Mattyhorn



    Mattyhorn,

    I swear you really must be brain-dead! The situations are different but are the same because the sensitivity of a word that someone took offense to. Sure, no one from another color beat me up shouting "This is a black world!" to me. However, the incident had a racial component to it that someone took offense to. The same goes here with this story. If I can be almost fired and almost labeled a racist for saying the word BLACK then these thugs (who were all black) shouting "This is a BLACK world" while beating up a WHITE family and two of their WHITE friends are the same thing. It was most certainly racial. Otherwise, there is a double standard in America where people of color can say anything they want to, no matter how harmful or insulting those words are and racial bounderies between the races will always be breeched. If that is true, then we are all ruined and racism will thrive under the excuse of hatred.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Xaphius. Show Xaphius's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    I wonder if Sonia Sotmayor would consider this a hate crime? My guess is she would say it can't be a hate crime if the victims are white.
    Posted by bobc33


    Sadly, that's pretty much what Holder is saying.....
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from bobc33. Show bobc33's posts

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    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:


    Greg,

    Thanks, I just watched it.  Pretty darn incredible.  I honestly think if we keep going down this road of an all powerful, all knowing federal government we are doomed.

    But I don't think we'll go too much further down this road, with all the excesses obama, and his predecessors, have committed my hope is soon there will be a solid turn back to a real separation of powers between the legislative, executive, judiciary branches and the states.

    I know people were tired of Bush, but obama/Reid/Pelosi and their minions are darn close to the old USSR system.

    American will wake up, but it won't be easy. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Xaphius. Show Xaphius's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime?? : Greg, Thanks, I just watched it.  Pretty darn incredible.  I honestly think if we keep going down this road of an all powerful, all knowing federal government we are doomed. But I don't think we'll go too much further down this road, with all the excesses obama, and his predecessors, have committed my hope is soon there will be a solid turn back to a real separation of powers between the legislative, executive, judiciary branches and the states . I know people were tired of Bush, but obama/Reid/Pelosi and their minions are darn close to the old USSR system. American will wake up, but it won't be easy. 
    Posted by bobc33



    Bushism resembled Fascism

    Obama is evoking Communism

    At heart, those two systems aren't so very different - especially if one recalls that NAZI's were National SOCIALISTS.

    In both scenarios, power is taken from the people, and given to the Elite - be it government taking over business (communism), or vice-versa (fascism, as originally defined by Mussolini; aka 'corporatism').   When you start looking at the basic revolving door phenomenon of industry ande government, the distinction becomes meaningless.


    I hope your optimism is more accurate than my pessimism.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from sk8ter2008. Show sk8ter2008's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    It certainly was portrayed as a hate crime in that article.  Looking around further on that site, some comments indicate that there were other such incidents on that night of the public fireworks display, so this was not an isolated occurrence. That said, as of now it doesn't appear that race was the motivation for the attack, so it's not a hate crime, but I understand why this family might think it so. Judging by some of the comments on the ABJ site, there seems to be plenty of hate to go around in Akron. 
    Posted by Mattyhorn


    What????

    I have seem you try to rationalize in some obsurd ways but, this takes the cake.

    Not motivated by race????

    Beating up a family (not other kids or white thugs) while chanting "It's a black world"?????

    What if it were a group of white thugs who beat up a black familoy while chanting "It's a white mans world" wouold that be race motivated??

    Geez, matty that's just blind denial, blind loyalty to a Prez or extreme white guilt.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from sk8ter2008. Show sk8ter2008's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime?? : Any worse than the response from Fox News, NRO, Kristol, et al...?  I doubt it. But if the Rev. Wright's screeds mean that much to you, then by all means keep stewing. 
    Posted by Mattyhorn


    Hypocrite!
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from sk8ter2008. Show sk8ter2008's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    No, I'm not sure, just as I said.  However, based on the information we have (the media who reported it, plus the accounts of the victims) and additional circumstances, including second-hand info from some of the good (and not so good) denizens of Akron, I offered an opinion based on the original question posed by boater. We'll see if further details bear that out...or not....
    Posted by Mattyhorn


    I hope you will be so patient for more information and evidence if/when this crime happens again but their races are reversed!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from sk8ter2008. Show sk8ter2008's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    The reporter said they were all black; he wasn't even there.  Do you believe everything you read?  In a situation like that, it's fairly easy for a dozen to become two dozen or for other embellishments to be added.  Without further details, it seems rather sketchy to me. But again you're right, brat.  Obviously, only gangs of black youths go around jumping innocent people without provocation.  Obviously, no black or hispanic or gay or female people have ever suffered senseless beatings (or worse) at the hands of violent thugs in this country. <sarc off/> Actually, a "gang initiation" rite sounds much more plausible than "hate crime" at this point.  This sounded like plain ol' thuggery...nothing more.  Seems to me that a roving gang of 50 teens, white or black, would draw attention from someone else, no? 
    Posted by Mattyhorn


    I ndon't remember you being so "innocent until proven guilty" when it was the marines in haditha who were accused with suspect eveidence. Why is that??


    HHHHUUUUMMMMMM!!


    We all know.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from GreginMedford. Show GreginMedford's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    Interesting that Bush gives a speech at Bob Jones and he's a hard core religious rightist, but Obama spending 20 years with Wright is NBD any criticism is out of line.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    Reuben- Are you of a mind that 'hate crimes' are a useful legal instrument?  In the case starting this thread - isn't it already a crime to assault people?   Do certain motives really need to be considered worse than others when it comes to a gang beating? It just seems redundant....and when you give a listen to guys like Holder, before congress, you get the impression that this kind of law is going to result in some groups getting more protection than others, which could have the net result of WORSENING things like racism..... And never mind the absurdity it has become in Europe, where people can suffer legal consequences for things like, questioning the holocost... thought crimes?  crimes of emotion? is this anything but a slippery slope? dunno man.  what's your take?
    Posted by Xaphius


    Motivation of the criminal has always been part of sentencing even without hate crime legislation.  But it is discretionary to the judge so there can be a range of actual penalties (assault and battery is only a misdemeanor).  We have laws with increased penalties for assaulting the elderly, children, and public officials.  This was done because they were deemed to need added protection.  It is not much of a stretch to single out those that target someone (usually a minority) because of their race, gender of sexual orientation.  I think it makes society a better place: marginalizing/penalizing hatred and bigotry is a positive for the greater good.   And the law makes a distinction between just speech and speech accompanying action and that should keep us off the slippery slope.   

    A friend of mine was involved as a juror in a federal case involving a hate crime charge.  A biker got in a dispute with a black man in a bar and hit him repeatedly with a hammer.   He used racial epithets during the beating.  But the jury could not find that the assault was racially motivated: the slurs were part of the emotion of the moment as opposed to the reason for the assault.   Thus there was no hate crime, and no federal case (a state court would have to handle the a. and b. dangerous weapon).
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from sk8ter2008. Show sk8ter2008's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    Interesting that Bush gives a speech at Bob Jones and he's a hard core religious rightist, but Obama spending 20 years with Wright is NBD any criticism is out of line.
    Posted by GreginMedford


    No hypocricy there huh? GGEEEEEEEZZZZZZ!!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mattyhorn. Show Mattyhorn's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    No hypocrisy at all.

    I take no stock in organized religions of any kind, even though I understand that very few people can be elected in this god-sick country without professing their faith publicly.  I care much less about a politician who attends church for political expedience than I do about a politician who declares a born-again fundamentalism as part of their platform.

    Likewise, it's been one of the things about Obama that I oppose on principle, just as I opposed it in Bush II and Clinton.  (FTR, I found McCain's general indifference to the religious right very encouraging and also why I supported him in 2000.)  I resent any of my tax dollars going to religious causes and believe that churches should be taxed at least on their real estate holdings.  But somehow, I deal with it.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from macnh1. Show macnh1's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    There is no such thing as a "hate crime."  If you beat someone over the head with a baseball bat, you clearly aren't showing positive affection for them, regardless of the motive or the color of their skin etc... 

    Now that Obama is President can we put to rest this crappola about being an African American, Gay American, Asian American, Latino America????

    You are either an American or you aren't an American. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ohhhhh-Bammy. Show Ohhhhh-Bammy's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    There is no such thing as a "hate crime."  If you beat someone over the head with a baseball bat, you clearly aren't showing positive affection for them, regardless of the motive or the color of their skin etc...  Now that Obama is President can we put to rest this crappola about being an African American, Gay American, Asian American, Latino America???? You are either an American or you aren't an American. 
    Posted by macnh1


    Mac,
    I hope you aren't speaking tongue in cheek.
    There have to be degrees.. shades of gray..
    Obama being POTUS is fueling feelings of racism, power and control as illustrated by the quotations above. 
    Surely you would agree that given youe baseball bat example.. If you were attacked and Bwarney Fwank were attacked.. no doubt there are different consequences.. Bwarneys attacker gets the congressional medal of honor.  
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from sk8ter2008. Show sk8ter2008's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    No hypocrisy at all. I take no stock in organized religions of any kind, even though I understand that very few people can be elected in this god-sick country without professing their faith publicly.  I care much less about a politician who attends church for political expedience than I do about a politician who declares a born-again fundamentalism as part of their platform. Likewise, it's been one of the things about Obama that I oppose on principle, just as I opposed it in Bush II and Clinton.  (FTR, I found McCain's general indifference to the religious right very encouraging and also why I supported him in 2000.)  I resent any of my tax dollars going to religious causes and believe that churches should be taxed at least on their real estate holdings.  But somehow, I deal with it.
    Posted by Mattyhorn

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from sk8ter2008. Show sk8ter2008's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    No hypocrisy at all. I take no stock in organized religions of any kind, even though I understand that very few people can be elected in this god-sick country without professing their faith publicly.  I care much less about a politician who attends church for political expedience than I do about a politician who declares a born-again fundamentalism as part of their platform. Likewise, it's been one of the things about Obama that I oppose on principle, just as I opposed it in Bush II and Clinton.  (FTR, I found McCain's general indifference to the religious right very encouraging and also why I supported him in 2000.)  I resent any of my tax dollars going to religious causes and believe that churches should be taxed at least on their real estate holdings.  But somehow, I deal with it.
    Posted by Mattyhorn


    I think your acting like a hypocrite because you assumed guilt on the marines in haditha but, yet, you gi e these guys a pass.

    You can't have it both ways you either want all the evidence and due process all the time or your don't. You shouldn't rant about due process only when it's someone you think is in line with your ideology.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    There is no such thing as a "hate crime."  If you beat someone over the head with a baseball bat, you clearly aren't showing positive affection for them, regardless of the motive or the color of their skin etc...  Now that Obama is President can we put to rest this crappola about being an African American, Gay American, Asian American, Latino America???? You are either an American or you aren't an American. 
    Posted by macnh1


    Maybe if you were in one of those groups you would think differently.  These kinds of crimes happen all the time.  Someone who specifically targets you because you are of a different race, gender or sexual orientation is worse than your average criminal nitwit.  We live in a diverse society and that ideal should be protected against the assaults of bigotted thuggery.   Punishing hateful criminals more than the ordinary criminal serves a valid societal purpose.  We teach tolerance: we should punish intolerance.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Xaphius. Show Xaphius's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime?? : Motivation of the criminal has always been part of sentencing even without hate crime legislation.  But it is discretionary to the judge so there can be a range of actual penalties (assault and battery is only a misdemeanor).  We have laws with increased penalties for assaulting the elderly, children, and public officials.  This was done because they were deemed to need added protection.  It is not much of a stretch to single out those that target someone (usually a minority) because of their race, gender of sexual orientation.  I think it makes society a better place: marginalizing/penalizing hatred and bigotry is a positive for the greater good.   And the law makes a distinction between just speech and speech accompanying action and that should keep us off the slippery slope.    A friend of mine was involved as a juror in a federal case involving a hate crime charge.  A biker got in a dispute with a black man in a bar and hit him repeatedly with a hammer.   He used racial epithets during the beating.  But the jury could not find that the assault was racially motivated: the slurs were part of the emotion of the moment as opposed to the reason for the assault.   Thus there was no hate crime, and no federal case (a state court would have to handle the a. and b. dangerous weapon).
    Posted by Reubenhop

    i just fear that this could (d)evolve into cases where mere words are enough to get people in trouble with the law...like the case in PA several years ago where Christian protesters were jailed for protesting against homosexuals at a gay pride event (i think).  the SC eventually found the law unconstitutional and overturned it, but still, my fear is that things like, holocaust denial, could land a person in jail, and begin eroding the 1st amendment...

    The argument i heard that makes sense, is how crimes targeting a group can have the effect of terrorizing that group - but shouldn't the tables be allowed to turn, if the victims are white, and the assailants black?

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Xaphius. Show Xaphius's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    Interesting that Bush gives a speech at Bob Jones and he's a hard core religious rightist, but Obama spending 20 years with Wright is NBD any criticism is out of line.
    Posted by GreginMedford


    i was listening to an interview the other day with a guy writing a book on obama, who says obama rarely attended church - ie, it was political window dressing.  who knows if he ever paid attention, heard the f'd up sermons, or did crossword puzzles during services.....
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??

    In Response to Re: Should this be treated as a hate crime??:
    The argument i heard that makes sense, is how crimes targeting a group can have the effect of terrorizing that group - but shouldn't the tables be allowed to turn, if the victims are white, and the assailants black?
    Posted by Xaphius


    I believe that all the hate crime legislation is neutral as to race/gender/sexual orientation, etc.
     
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