The Catholic Church and "Personhood"

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    The Catholic Church and "Personhood"

    Since Roe v. Wade..there has been debate ad naseum over when "life" begins. Roe v. Wade essentially holds that society must balance the rights of a fetus to the rights of a mother once the fetus is determined to be viable.

    Roe v. Wade recognizes that viability cannot occur before 12 weeks so the rights of the woman's privacy are absolute  when it comes to a decision to terminate pregnancy.
     After 12 weeks..if I understand it correctly...it becomes a state issue where states are allowed to set their own rules.

    This has caused much debate between those who are anti-abortion and those who are pro-choice. Religion has played an enormous role in this debate..with many anti-abortion supporters invoking the Church's rights..and "God's will".

    However..it appears that the Catholic Church doesn't always practice what they preach. In 2006, Lori Stodghill , 28 weeks pregnant with twins..went to St. Thomas More Hospital suffering..it turns out..from cardiac arrest. No attempt was made on behalf of the hospital staff to deliver her twins before she died..resulting in their death. Her husband sued the hospital for wrongful death of his wife as well as the twin boys who died with her. The Catholic Church argued that he could not sue for wrongful death of the twin boys since they were not "people" until they were born.

    Now..the Catholic Church definition of when life personhood starts goes way beyond science's. No one knows better than I that a baby born at 28 weeks is without question..viable. My son was born at 28 weeks. 

    While I respect everyone's beliefs and perspectives on the issues..this should serve to remind everyone why religious beliefs should not be the thing on which we base society's laws. Yes..they should inform..but not be the basis.

    It's kind of hard to take anything the Catholic Church might say on when personhood begins when they themselves argued that it begins only after birth. I guess their definition of personhood is fluid..depending on how much it may cost them.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/26/us/colorado-fetus-lawsuit/index.html

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    I'd love to hear from the loudmouth conservatives who called Obama a liar based on the DOJ's defense of Obamacare as a tax.

    I take it they feel the entire Catholic Church - especially the Pope - are a bunch of lying hypocrite scum, immoral murderers to boot.

    Well what am I saying ?! THat's where their logic from slamming Obama would lead them if applied here. Of course they won't say that!

     

    (They're honest like that)



     
    Haha..I fully expect some kind of spurious argument from them...it seems to be their specialty...!

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName99. Show UserName99's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    The Catholic Church is morally absolutist when it comes to women's reproductive rights--they don't have any. But it picks and chooses its moral stance when it gets hauled into court to defend itself in a wrongful death action. That is inconsistent, plain and simple. It is also morally indefensible.

    Legally they may be on solid ground with their arguments, but morally and ethically they are circling the drain of credibility.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from FaolanofEssex. Show FaolanofEssex's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    Most will sell out their beliefs when it comes to the almighty buck. The Catholic church is no different.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from doozy-day. Show doozy-day's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    Mixing Obama and the Catholic Church is like trying to mix tequila with Yaegermeister, they don't mix, and never should be done.

    Two evil entities that have no right getting involved in a Womans right to chose.

    The chruch should stay out of it, as should the governemnt!  Especially Obama!

     

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    Simple case of the church's liability insurance attorneys getting out in front of church doctrine.  The insurer will use what ever legal and procedural strategies it has to protect its bottom line, this wasn't a Pope call as its not the church's money that is at risk here.

    An attorneys job is to act on behalf of it's client in this case the insurance compnay; morals and ethics be damned, it's about the law.

     
  8. This post has been removed.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    The insurer will use what ever legal and procedural strategies it has to protect its bottom line



    Right. And the DOJ defending Obamacare as a tax did not make Obama a hypocrite.

     




    Well the attorneys made the church look like hypocrites just like they made Obama look like one; perception vs. reality how close they are depends on which side you're on.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName99. Show UserName99's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    The insurer will use what ever legal and procedural strategies it has to protect its bottom line



    Right. And the DOJ defending Obamacare as a tax did not make Obama a hypocrite.

     

     




     

    Well the attorneys made the church look like hypocrites just like they made Obama look like one; perception vs. reality how close they are depends on which side you're on.




    Lawyers are not permitted to take positions or make arguments that their clients do not wish them to take/make. So that means that someone in the Catholic hospital hierarchy signed off on the argument that the twins did not constitute "human lives." That anyone in a high-level position at a Catholic hospital would agree to that is the issue here and its hypocritical.

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from AlleyCatBruin. Show AlleyCatBruin's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to miscricket's comment:

     

    Since Roe v. Wade..there has been debate ad naseum over when "life" begins. Roe v. Wade essentially holds that society must balance the rights of a fetus to the rights of a mother once the fetus is determined to be viable.

    Roe v. Wade recognizes that viability cannot occur before 12 weeks so the rights of the woman's privacy are absolute  when it comes to a decision to terminate pregnancy.
     After 12 weeks..if I understand it correctly...it becomes a state issue where states are allowed to set their own rules.

    This has caused much debate between those who are anti-abortion and those who are pro-choice. Religion has played an enormous role in this debate..with many anti-abortion supporters invoking the Church's rights..and "God's will".

    However..it appears that the Catholic Church doesn't always practice what they preach. In 2006, Lori Stodghill , 28 weeks pregnant with twins..went to St. Thomas More Hospital suffering..it turns out..from cardiac arrest. No attempt was made on behalf of the hospital staff to deliver her twins before she died..resulting in their death. Her husband sued the hospital for wrongful death of his wife as well as the twin boys who died with her. The Catholic Church argued that he could not sue for wrongful death of the twin boys since they were not "people" until they were born.

    Now..the Catholic Church definition of when life personhood starts goes way beyond science's. No one knows better than I that a baby born at 28 weeks is without question..viable. My son was born at 28 weeks. 

    While I respect everyone's beliefs and perspectives on the issues..this should serve to remind everyone why religious beliefs should not be the thing on which we base society's laws. Yes..they should inform..but not be the basis.

    It's kind of hard to take anything the Catholic Church might say on when personhood begins when they themselves argued that it begins only after birth. I guess their definition of personhood is fluid..depending on how much it may cost them.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/26/us/colorado-fetus-lawsuit/index.html

     




    This is why church and state should always be separate. Glad I'm not a Catholic anymore.....

     

     

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackbu. Show jackbu's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    This is not what the Catholic Church believes.  The poster miscricket would have us believe that a 55 bed hospital in Colorado is symbolic of the Catholic Church. 

    A crazy church group is responsible for this disaster and Catholic Bishops are investigating.

    Facts are that the Church has less and less control over hositals of which they ran years ago. Health care became too expensive years ago and the church has handed over control of many of their hospitals to businesses.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackbu. Show jackbu's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    "No attempt was made on behalf of the hospital staff to deliver her twins before she died..resulting in their death."

    above by Miscricket

    The policy on this by the Catholic Church is to save the baby before the mother when complications come up.  This policy angers many groups, so there is no pleasing everyone. The Catholic Church is clear on this matter, so when a tragedy like this happens, there is usually a nut who will rush to blogs to blame the Church.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    Amazing how the Cathoilic Church's position can change on time to fit the situation.  They band to together so that they don't pay for contraception, but have no control in situations where they might get sued.

    How about the Catholic church put as effort at protecting it's so called flock as they do in protecting their bank accounts?

    As if the Attorney's would make an argument without the complete blessing on the leadership of the hospital.  They let 2 little babies die in the womb and then have the nerve to say they weren't people. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to miscricket's comment:

    Since Roe v. Wade..there has been debate ad naseum over when "life" begins. Roe v. Wade essentially holds that society must balance the rights of a fetus to the rights of a mother once the fetus is determined to be viable.

    Roe v. Wade recognizes that viability cannot occur before 12 weeks so the rights of the woman's privacy are absolute  when it comes to a decision to terminate pregnancy.
     After 12 weeks..if I understand it correctly...it becomes a state issue where states are allowed to set their own rules.

    This has caused much debate between those who are anti-abortion and those who are pro-choice. Religion has played an enormous role in this debate..with many anti-abortion supporters invoking the Church's rights..and "God's will".

    However..it appears that the Catholic Church doesn't always practice what they preach. In 2006, Lori Stodghill , 28 weeks pregnant with twins..went to St. Thomas More Hospital suffering..it turns out..from cardiac arrest. No attempt was made on behalf of the hospital staff to deliver her twins before she died..resulting in their death. Her husband sued the hospital for wrongful death of his wife as well as the twin boys who died with her. The Catholic Church argued that he could not sue for wrongful death of the twin boys since they were not "people" until they were born.

    Now..the Catholic Church definition of when life personhood starts goes way beyond science's. No one knows better than I that a baby born at 28 weeks is without question..viable. My son was born at 28 weeks. 

    While I respect everyone's beliefs and perspectives on the issues..this should serve to remind everyone why religious beliefs should not be the thing on which we base society's laws. Yes..they should inform..but not be the basis.

    It's kind of hard to take anything the Catholic Church might say on when personhood begins when they themselves argued that it begins only after birth. I guess their definition of personhood is fluid..depending on how much it may cost them.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/26/us/colorado-fetus-lawsuit/index.html



    "Since Roe v. Wade..there has been debate ad naseum over when "life" begins."

    From a scientific point of view, life begins at conception.  

    Are we un-ringing the bell on science now?

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    I'd love to hear from the loudmouth conservatives who called Obama a liar based on the DOJ's defense of Obamacare as a tax.

    I take it they feel the entire Catholic Church - especially the Pope - are a bunch of lying hypocrite scum, immoral murderers to boot.

    Well what am I saying ?! THat's where their logic from slamming Obama would lead them if applied here. Of course they won't say that!

     

    (They're honest like that)



    Obama had it both ways, arguing in one case it wasn't a tax, in another, arguing that it is a tax.

    Such Orwellian logic is the hobgoblin of the left.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    Re-readingthe articel, I am drawn to this conclusion:   idon't know why people look for support for their positions on abortion in the faults of others.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackbu. Show jackbu's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    The policy on saving children over the mother has never changed. The Catholic Church has always held strong that during delivery, the baby is to be saved first when complications come up.  If there is a rogue doctor in some backward hospital, then that is a tragedy but the Catholic Church never ok'd this.

    If you want to condemm the church over a link which some angry poster has given, then fine.  If you are serious about blogging, then take ten minutes to research more.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    Simple case of the church's liability insurance attorneys getting out in front of church doctrine.  The insurer will use what ever legal and procedural strategies it has to protect its bottom line, this wasn't a Pope call as its not the church's money that is at risk here.

    An attorneys job is to act on behalf of it's client in this case the insurance compnay; morals and ethics be damned, it's about the law.




    In this case that seems to be true..but no client does not know what their attorney is doing.

    This is another issue with businesses that operate under the auspices of the Catholic Church. They use their religious affiliationt to be afforded the exemptions from taxes and policies ( ex. contraception)...yet when push comes to shove..like in this case..it's all about business.

    I like to keep my faith as a separate thing...unrelated to 'business" or society's laws. I think the world would be a better place if that were more common.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    Hypocrites? Weak.

    The Catholic church, especially the pope, are also mass murderers. Just look at what their lawyers are arguing in court!




    I was born and raised Catholic and my faith is very important to me. Unlike some people however, I am able to separate my faith in God with the politics of the Church.

    The history of the Catholic church is not one of kindness and benevolence. It is one of violence and judgment. The fact that Vatican city is the city of Gold doesn't really jibe much with their mission.  People confuse the Catholic Church with Christian faith all too often. There are many other Christian religions which are more closely aligned with the teachings of the bible.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    Remove the log in your own eye before complaint about the splinter in someone else's eye.

     
  23. This post has been removed.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from AlleyCatBruin. Show AlleyCatBruin's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    "No attempt was made on behalf of the hospital staff to deliver her twins before she died..resulting in their death."

    above by Miscricket

    The policy on this by the Catholic Church is to save the baby before the mother when complications come up.  This policy angers many groups, so there is no pleasing everyone. The Catholic Church is clear on this matter, so when a tragedy like this happens, there is usually a nut who will rush to blogs to blame the Church.



    Jackbu is defending the indefensible - the Catholic Church. Thank God for the separation of church and state. We don't need pedophiles in pointed hats running the country.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from andiejen. Show andiejen's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to miscricket's comment:

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    Hypocrites? Weak.

    The Catholic church, especially the pope, are also mass murderers. Just look at what their lawyers are arguing in court!

     




    I was born and raised Catholic and my faith is very important to me. Unlike some people however, I am able to separate my faith in God with the politics of the Church.

     

    The history of the Catholic church is not one of kindness and benevolence. It is one of violence and judgment. The fact that Vatican city is the city of Gold doesn't really jibe much with their mission.  People confuse the Catholic Church with Christian faith all too often. There are many other Christian religions which are more closely aligned with the teachings of the bible.

     




    cricket,

    I too was raised in a strict Catholic family. Not until I left for college did I begin to explore the history of my church, as well as other faiths. It came as a horrible blow to me to learn that what you state about the history of the Catholic Church is of course absolutely true.

    I tried to talk about it with my family but, surprise, they did not want to hear about it.

    If I missed this I apoligize, but something we all learned as children is a basic principle enshrined in our Constitution: the separation church and state.

    The U.S. is hardly a perfect country but this is one of principles that elevates it above so many other countries.

     
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