The Catholic Church and "Personhood"

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to AlleyCatBruin's comment:

     

    In response to jackbu's comment:

     

    "No attempt was made on behalf of the hospital staff to deliver her twins before she died..resulting in their death."

    above by Miscricket

    The policy on this by the Catholic Church is to save the baby before the mother when complications come up.  This policy angers many groups, so there is no pleasing everyone. The Catholic Church is clear on this matter, so when a tragedy like this happens, there is usually a nut who will rush to blogs to blame the Church.

     



    Jackbu is defending the indefensible - the Catholic Church. Thank God for the separation of church and state. We don't need pedophiles in pointed hats running the country.

     

     




    Haha..Al.. thanks. I have learned not to feed the trolls over the years of online forum participation. The good news is that it seems the "ignore" feature is back. So..if the poster Jackbu doesn't want to read my boring, crazy or angry posts..he can simply put me on ignore and be done with it. In fact..really..I wish he would!

      I think it's important for people to be able to separate faith from politics. It's a sign of intelligence actually..to have doubt..and to question religious organizations.

     

    I don't think the pedophile priests represent all priests or the Catholic church...but the years of coverup by the Catholic Church is where I have a problem. Knowingly condoning harm to young boys is not forgivable. Actually..if they had been honest about it from the start they may have limited their liablity. As it is..no amount of money can undo what was done.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to andiejen's comment:

    In response to miscricket's comment:

     

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    Hypocrites? Weak.

    The Catholic church, especially the pope, are also mass murderers. Just look at what their lawyers are arguing in court!

     




    I was born and raised Catholic and my faith is very important to me. Unlike some people however, I am able to separate my faith in God with the politics of the Church.

     

    The history of the Catholic church is not one of kindness and benevolence. It is one of violence and judgment. The fact that Vatican city is the city of Gold doesn't really jibe much with their mission.  People confuse the Catholic Church with Christian faith all too often. There are many other Christian religions which are more closely aligned with the teachings of the bible.

     

     




    cricket,

     

    I too was raised in a strict Catholic family. Not until I left for college did I begin to explore the history of my church, as well as other faiths. It came as a horrible blow to me to learn that what you state about the history of the Catholic Church is of course absolutely true.

    I tried to talk about it with my family but, surprise, they did not want to hear about it.

    If I missed this I apoligize, but something we all learned as children is a basic principle enshrined in our Constitution: the separation church and state.

    The U.S. is hardly a perfect country but this is one of principles that elevates it above so many other countries.




    Thankfully..my son is really into the history of religions so we have some great conversations. Like me..his exploration of the historical aspects of how religious organizations evolved has only served to strengthen his faith personally. The ability to separate the politics of any religious organization with one's faith in God allows you to take that faith to a whole new level.

    There are a few other people in my life who have studied religious history and they are atheists. They cannot understand how learning about the history as actually strengthened my faith..since for them it had the opposite effect. I can't explain it..but I do know one thing..knowledge is power. One should never run away from history since there is so much to learn from it.

    I guess this is one of the reasons I am able to keep Church and State separate in my beliefs...much as our founding fathers did.

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from AlleyCatBruin. Show AlleyCatBruin's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    In response to AlleyCatBruin's comment:

     

    In response to jackbu's comment:

     

    "No attempt was made on behalf of the hospital staff to deliver her twins before she died..resulting in their death."

    above by Miscricket

    The policy on this by the Catholic Church is to save the baby before the mother when complications come up.  This policy angers many groups, so there is no pleasing everyone. The Catholic Church is clear on this matter, so when a tragedy like this happens, there is usually a nut who will rush to blogs to blame the Church.

     



    Jackbu is defending the indefensible - the Catholic Church. Thank God for the separation of church and state. We don't need pedophiles in pointed hats running the country.

     

     



    No defense is needed on the particular subject which miscricket posted.  The policy is clear and anyone who has had a baby in a catholic hospital knows the baby is saved first when complications arise.

     

    Everyone is glad that there is separation of church and state and I am not sure why you even bring this up, except that you have nothing of intelligence to say.  Pedophiles are every where and if you don't think they are in our government, then you spend too much time blogging.

     




    The Catholic Church has been hijacked by the crazy wing of the GOP and, sadly, by those in the Church who covered up for the pedophiles. Amen.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from FaolanofEssex. Show FaolanofEssex's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    In response to miscricket's comment:

     

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    Hypocrites? Weak.

    The Catholic church, especially the pope, are also mass murderers. Just look at what their lawyers are arguing in court!

     




    I was born and raised Catholic and my faith is very important to me. Unlike some people however, I am able to separate my faith in God with the politics of the Church.

     

    The history of the Catholic church is not one of kindness and benevolence. It is one of violence and judgment. The fact that Vatican city is the city of Gold doesn't really jibe much with their mission.  People confuse the Catholic Church with Christian faith all too often. There are many other Christian religions which are more closely aligned with the teachings of the bible.

     

     




     

    Well once again you are wrong.  I don't get involved in the politics of the church.  When you come to the board blaming the church for some mistake, then you need to be explained the policies of the church.

    The church does not operate on patients and does not even require the doctors to be catholic.  Even in the 50's, some doctors chose the mother over the baby and the church stood strong that the baby is to be saved over the mother.

    The Church is not all about business.  When they had complete control over their hospitals, many were treated and never charged.  The cost of a grammar school education up thru the 70's was around $100.00 per year and many were not even charged. Even now people often get married and buried from the church without being charged.

    I have no issue with you bad mouthing or hating the church, but be consistent and put in your will that when you pass away, you wish to get buried from a hall and not a church.  I get a kick out the"former" catholics who want to get married and buried from the church and have their kids baptized..



    1) Just in case there was a doubt in anyone's mind how little Catholic Church values women.

    2) What Catholic School did you go to? The cost of grammer school at a Catholic school was more like $1000-1500 in the 70's.

     

    To add- I don't know a single person who gets married or buried in the Catholic Church without a hefty fee. My cousin, a lifelong member of a Catholic parish, could not even have his child baptized at their church. Why? because that child was the product of in vitro fertilization.

     

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from FaolanofEssex. Show FaolanofEssex's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to msobstinate99's comment:

     because that child was the product of in vitro fertilization.

     

    Why does that need to be reported? Why offer the information? My other half is jewish and we were married in the catholic church.




    That is a good question. It was brought up by the priest. My cousin and his wife had mistakenly shared their conception troubles with him as well as many other parishoners. It is a close parish. You can imagine the betrayal they felt.  They now go a universalist church which is where they had their child baptized.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from FaolanofEssex. Show FaolanofEssex's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to msobstinate99's comment:

     because that child was the product of in vitro fertilization.

     

    Why does that need to be reported? Why offer the information? My other half is jewish and we were married in the catholic church.




    and out of curiosity, how much paperwork did you have to complete and get approved before the Church agreed to marry you?

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from FaolanofEssex. Show FaolanofEssex's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to msobstinate99's comment:

    Why do you ask? I don't remember it being a matter of approval. We requested a date, filled out the basic information and that was it.




    I know the Catholic church requires you to fill out paperwork that you agree to raise your children Catholic. Also, if you marry someone of a different faith you have to have approval from the Bishop. It's called a dispensation from disparity of cult and your marriage is not considered valid in the eyes of the Church without it.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    To miscricket:

    From your thousand emails of which you sent to me, I was under the impression you did work for a catholic college.  Do your views on this subject and the " cover up " keep you from doing work for this college? Or are you all about business and could care less of where your pay check comes from?

     

    "So..if the poster Jackbu doesn't want to read my boring, crazy or angry posts..he can simply put me on ignore and be done with it. In fact..really..I wish he would"

    above by the poster miscricket

    Sorry if you don't like to be challenged or to hear the opposing view.  If you want everyone to agree with you, just create another s/n. you are pretty good at that




    Rarely have I seen a comment that gets so many things wrong at one time. Congratulations Jackbu...you have really outdone yourself. In fact..so much is wrong here..that the best course of action is to take it line by line so here goes..lol

    From your thousand emails of which you sent to me- Which were in response to the thousands you sent me.


    I was under the impression you did work for a catholic college. - You are actually wrong here. The sad part of this is that I actually told you where I work and what I did for a living so you are either intentionally being dishonest or you truly lack reading comprehension skills. ( My money is on the second).

    Do your views on this subject and the " cover up " keep you from doing work for this college?- No..because I don't work for a college...Catholic or otherwise :-)

     


    Or are you all about business and could care less of where your pay check comes from? No again. I actually care very much where my paycheck comes from. I work for a non profit whose mission I strongly believe in. I would not work for them otherwise. I will probably never get rich in my line of work..but at the end of my life..I will feel like I made a difference. Besides..I tend to get my fulfillment from things not material.


    Sorry if you don't like to be challenged or to hear the opposing view.- I am not remotely afraid of being challenged. I enjoy debating points of view. I understand that not everyone shares my opinions and I learn a lot from people with whom I disagree.  Now..debating you is annoying because as I stated earlier..you seem to lack basic reading comprehension skills. In fact..you missed the entire point of my OP which was that social policy should not be dictated by religious beliefs for reasons such as the one mentioned in the OP. If you want to debate or discuss..you really should do it like a grownup and not a petulant child.


    If you want everyone to agree with you, just create another s/n. you are pretty good at that - No..that is another one of your false assumptions. Sorry if the truth does not fit into your false paradigm..but I have long since given up caring what you think to be true.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to jackbu's comment:

     

    In response to miscricket's comment:

     

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    Hypocrites? Weak.

    The Catholic church, especially the pope, are also mass murderers. Just look at what their lawyers are arguing in court!

     




    I was born and raised Catholic and my faith is very important to me. Unlike some people however, I am able to separate my faith in God with the politics of the Church.

     

    The history of the Catholic church is not one of kindness and benevolence. It is one of violence and judgment. The fact that Vatican city is the city of Gold doesn't really jibe much with their mission.  People confuse the Catholic Church with Christian faith all too often. There are many other Christian religions which are more closely aligned with the teachings of the bible.

     

     




     

    Well once again you are wrong.  I don't get involved in the politics of the church.  When you come to the board blaming the church for some mistake, then you need to be explained the policies of the church.

    The church does not operate on patients and does not even require the doctors to be catholic.  Even in the 50's, some doctors chose the mother over the baby and the church stood strong that the baby is to be saved over the mother.

    The Church is not all about business.  When they had complete control over their hospitals, many were treated and never charged.  The cost of a grammar school education up thru the 70's was around $100.00 per year and many were not even charged. Even now people often get married and buried from the church without being charged.

    I have no issue with you bad mouthing or hating the church, but be consistent and put in your will that when you pass away, you wish to get buried from a hall and not a church.  I get a kick out the"former" catholics who want to get married and buried from the church and have their kids baptized..

     




    No.. I am not wrong. It's sad that you don't know the history of your own Church.

     

    I am not bad-mouthing the Catholic Church..simply stating the hypocrisy of relying on a point of view to set public policy which itself seems to be in flux. Once again..if you are going to comment on my post..please brush up on your reading comprehension. It's not my job or anyone else's to help you in this area.

    Oh..and thank you for concerning yourself with my final arrangements. You can rest assured that not only are they already taken care of..but I will be buried from the Church where I have raised my son and that is a huge part of my life. The Catholic Church is not the only game in town..and many other Christian faiths place a higher value on their members. You are entitled to disagree with my opinion..but like I said..it matters not to me.

    Finally..don't assume from my responses to you here that you are going to engage me in the same back and forth games which you used to enjoy with your little friend Chrissy.  I am nothing like her..and ignoring you is far more satisfying to me.

     

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:

    In response to msobstinate99's comment:

     

     because that child was the product of in vitro fertilization.

     

    Why does that need to be reported? Why offer the information? My other half is jewish and we were married in the catholic church.

     




    That is a good question. It was brought up by the priest. My cousin and his wife had mistakenly shared their conception troubles with him as well as many other parishoners. It is a close parish. You can imagine the betrayal they felt.  They now go a universalist church which is where they had their child baptized.

     




    The catholic church does not seem to recognize that modern medical knowledge can be an ally in their quest to be supportive of life.

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from FaolanofEssex. Show FaolanofEssex's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:

     

    In response to jackbu's comment:

     

    In response to miscricket's comment:

     

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    Hypocrites? Weak.

    The Catholic church, especially the pope, are also mass murderers. Just look at what their lawyers are arguing in court!

     




    I was born and raised Catholic and my faith is very important to me. Unlike some people however, I am able to separate my faith in God with the politics of the Church.

     

    The history of the Catholic church is not one of kindness and benevolence. It is one of violence and judgment. The fact that Vatican city is the city of Gold doesn't really jibe much with their mission.  People confuse the Catholic Church with Christian faith all too often. There are many other Christian religions which are more closely aligned with the teachings of the bible.

     

     




     

    Well once again you are wrong.  I don't get involved in the politics of the church.  When you come to the board blaming the church for some mistake, then you need to be explained the policies of the church.

    The church does not operate on patients and does not even require the doctors to be catholic.  Even in the 50's, some doctors chose the mother over the baby and the church stood strong that the baby is to be saved over the mother.

    The Church is not all about business.  When they had complete control over their hospitals, many were treated and never charged.  The cost of a grammar school education up thru the 70's was around $100.00 per year and many were not even charged. Even now people often get married and buried from the church without being charged.

    I have no issue with you bad mouthing or hating the church, but be consistent and put in your will that when you pass away, you wish to get buried from a hall and not a church.  I get a kick out the"former" catholics who want to get married and buried from the church and have their kids baptized..

     



    1) Just in case there was a doubt in anyone's mind how little Catholic Church values women.

     

    2) What Catholic School did you go to? The cost of grammer school at a Catholic school was more like $1000-1500 in the 70's.

     

    To add- I don't know a single person who gets married or buried in the Catholic Church without a hefty fee. My cousin, a lifelong member of a Catholic parish, could not even have his child baptized at their church. Why? because that child was the product of in vitro fertilization.

     

     




     

    It would be easier for you to name the school which cost this much.  I can tell you that the catholic high school which I attended was $325.00 per year when I started and $550.00 when I graduated in the mid 70's.  Many Catholic High's such as St Columkille in Brighton and Newton Catholic were under $500.00 per year as of 1977.

    The grammar school of which I graduated in the early 70's was in the $100.00 range per year and less for families with multiple kids attending.

    Education was still cheap up to the early 80's.  Boston State was roughly $600.00 per year in 1976.  I graduated from NU in 1981 and paid $4,000.00 for that  year or in that ball park for the fact checkers.




    That is hard to believe. I checked with my mum yesterday. I went to Immaculate Conception for 8 yrs. She said by the time I left in 1976 the tuition was over $1100 a year. She couldn't remember exactly but she said it was never lower then $600.

     

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from FaolanofEssex. Show FaolanofEssex's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    My mum is one of the sharpest people I know. Do you never check with yours on matters of childhood? Didn't realize there was more then one Immaculate Conception. The one I went to was on the North Shore. No offence meant but maybe you were getting discounted tuition?

    Irregardless the point is not worth aguing. Maybe you have fond memories of your Catholic upbringing but the times have changed and a Catholic education today comes with no breaks.

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from FaolanofEssex. Show FaolanofEssex's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:

     

    My mum is one of the sharpest people I know. Do you never check with yours on matters of childhood? Didn't realize there was more then one Immaculate Conception. The one I went to was on the North Shore. No offence meant but maybe you were getting discounted tuition?

    Irregardless the point is not worth aguing. Maybe you have fond memories of your Catholic upbringing but the times have changed and a Catholic education today comes with no breaks.

     




     

     

    No discounted tuition.  I also played sports so I knew people from most of the Catholic Schools around Boston and the tuition thing was always dicussed.  Possibly your church was not in the Diocese of Boston.  But if you cannont remember the cost of your tuition without going to your Mom, then you should really stay out of the discussion.

    "To add- I don't know a single person who gets married or buried in the Catholic Church without a hefty fee. My cousin, a lifelong member of a Catholic parish, could not even have his child baptized at their church. Why? because that child was the product of in vitro fertilization"

    above by you.

    I will call you on this as well.  If it were your child then I may debate you on this.  But people sometimes do not want to put the time and preparation into sacraments, so they avoid them.  Then they blame the church and their clown friends believe them.

    Confirmation has been so much on the decline that it is no longer mandatory  and the church will now marry people without their getting this sacrament.




    AYFKM? Are you for real? Listen buddy you seem to think you are an expert on the Catholic church. Is this you acknowledging you lost the debate b/c now you calling people clowns? With regards to my COUSIN there was no time and preparation to put in. The answer from the church was NO because the baby was born in vitro. You don't accept it? Too bad. Deal with it!

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from FaolanofEssex. Show FaolanofEssex's posts

    Re: The Catholic Church and

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:

     

    In response to jackbu's comment:

     

    In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:

     

    My mum is one of the sharpest people I know. Do you never check with yours on matters of childhood? Didn't realize there was more then one Immaculate Conception. The one I went to was on the North Shore. No offence meant but maybe you were getting discounted tuition?

    Irregardless the point is not worth aguing. Maybe you have fond memories of your Catholic upbringing but the times have changed and a Catholic education today comes with no breaks.

     




     

     

    No discounted tuition.  I also played sports so I knew people from most of the Catholic Schools around Boston and the tuition thing was always dicussed.  Possibly your church was not in the Diocese of Boston.  But if you cannont remember the cost of your tuition without going to your Mom, then you should really stay out of the discussion.

    "To add- I don't know a single person who gets married or buried in the Catholic Church without a hefty fee. My cousin, a lifelong member of a Catholic parish, could not even have his child baptized at their church. Why? because that child was the product of in vitro fertilization"

    above by you.

    I will call you on this as well.  If it were your child then I may debate you on this.  But people sometimes do not want to put the time and preparation into sacraments, so they avoid them.  Then they blame the church and their clown friends believe them.

    Confirmation has been so much on the decline that it is no longer mandatory  and the church will now marry people without their getting this sacrament.

     




    AYFKM? Are you for real? Listen buddy you seem to think you are an expert on the Catholic church. Is this you acknowledging you lost the debate b/c now you calling people clowns? With regards to my COUSIN there was no time and preparation to put in. The answer from the church was NO because the baby was born in vitro. You don't accept it? Too bad. Deal with it!

     

     




     

    What I am telling you is the Catholic Church will baptize anyone, despite how they are born or where they are born or how old they are. Many cathoics are lazy about their faith and are considered "twice a year Catholics".  Perhaps your cousin did not like the Priest and he decided not to go thru with the sacrament.  If this was the case then he could go to another parish.

    Now run along to your mom and ask her what she thinks about that.

    The data I gave you on the tuition is solid and again it pertains to Boston area schools.  The info I gave you on baptiam is solid as well.




    Do you even read the posts of which you respond to? My cousin was part of a very close nit parish, attended Mass almost weekly and volunteered often. You can say the same thing over and over it doesn't make you right. You seem to have an issue with me talking to my mum. Sounds like you may have mommy issues. Your data is in dispute and not just from me. Post a link and prove what you are saying.

     
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