The (false) talking point that simply won't die

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from beKool. Show beKool's posts

    The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    Talk about message discipline. Some talking points keep getting recycled, even when they're not true.

    Such is the case with the claim by many Republicans that the new health care law is "a government takeover of health care." PolitiFact has repeatedly rated that www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2010/dec/16/robert-hurt/robert-hurt-calls-health-care-reform-law-governmen/">False or www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2010/oct/17/rebecca-kleefisch/republican-rebecca-kleefisch-says-democrat-tom-bar/">Pants www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2010/mar/19/republican-party-florida/florida-republican-party-claims-democratic-health-/">on www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2010/feb/24/cw-bill-young/bill-young-claims-house-plan-was-government-takeov/">Fire and selected it as our 2010 www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/dec/16/lie-year-government-takeover-health-care/">Lie of the Year. But the line still gets repeated, most recently by likely presidential candidate Mitt Romney.

    Romney used the line during a speech in Ann Arbor, Mich., in which he sought to explain the difference between his Massachusetts health plan and the one passed by Congress last year. Read www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/may/13/mitt-romney/romney-calls-obamas-health-care-law-government-tak/">our Truth-O-Meter item for a full analysis.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName99. Show UserName99's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    I thought you were finally admitting that oil companies don't receive susidies.

    Guess not.  Carry on with your false talking point.
     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    Good idea.

    I'd like to see one person on here demonstrate cogently how the HCR law truly represents a "government takeover" of healthcare....
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName99. Show UserName99's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die:
    [QUOTE]Good idea. I'd like to see one person on here demonstrate cogently how the HCR law truly represents a "government takeover" of healthcare....
    Posted by MattyScornD[/QUOTE]



    From the WSJ

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703886904576031630593433102.html?mod=rss_opinion_main

    At the heart of ObamaCare is a vast expansion of federal control over how U.S. health care is financed, and thus delivered. The regulations that PolitiFact waves off are designed to convert insurers into government contractors in the business of fulfilling political demands, with enormous implications for the future of U.S. medicine. All citizens will be required to pay into this system, regardless of their individual needs or preferences. Sounds like a government takeover to us.

    PolitiFact is run by the St. Petersburg Times and has marketed itself to other news organizations on the pretense of impartiality. Like other "fact checking" enterprises, its animating conceit is that opinions are what ideologues have, when in reality PolitiFact's curators also have political views and values that influence their judgments about facts and who is right in any debate.

    In this case, they even claim that the government takeover slogan "played an important role in shaping public opinion about the health-care plan and was a significant factor in the Democrats' shellacking in the November elections." In other words, voters turned so strongly against Democrats because Republicans "lied," and not because of, oh, anything the Democrats did while they were running Congress. Is that a "fact" or a political judgment? Just asking.

    As long as the press corps is nominating "lies of the year," ours goes to the formal legislative title of ObamaCare, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. For a bill that in reality will raise health costs and reduce patient choice, the name recalls Mary McCarthy's famous line about every word being a lie, including "the" and "and."

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from sshore123. Show sshore123's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    I'd say disingenuous more than a lie, and please spare me the definition of what constitutes a takeover, I know the gov't isn't nationalizing the industry. All politicans play to the cheap seats, so let's look at the spirit of the statement rather than the letter of it please, good forbid we take everything a politican says as literal when we know intentional hyperbole (57 states, lol) is being used for dramatic effect.  HCR mandates the purchase of coverage based soley upon the act of breathing, which is the takeover the right is looking to beat up upon.  Whether it's an overstep on congressional authority will be played out it and argued for many years in the courts until the SC finally hears it and puts it to bed, where IMHO many aspects will end up in the legislative graveyard.  Remember most of the New Deal was finally deemed unconstitutional, and I think the personal mandate will be the nail in the coffin there.  Congress will have a hard time playing the Commerce Clause when the bill does not even allow for the purchase of insurance across state lines...

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from beKool. Show beKool's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    Lets see we had :

    The deathers

    The birthers

    The after birthers

    And now we have the falsies and the username99 opinioners

    Got to love the GOP
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die : From the WSJ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703886904576031630593433102.html?mod=rss_opinion_main At the heart of ObamaCare is a vast expansion of federal control over how U.S. health care is financed, and thus delivered. The regulations that PolitiFact waves off are designed to convert insurers into government contractors in the business of fulfilling political demands, with enormous implications for the future of U.S. medicine. All citizens will be required to pay into this system, regardless of their individual needs or preferences. Sounds like a government takeover to us. PolitiFact is run by the St. Petersburg Times and has marketed itself to other news organizations on the pretense of impartiality. Like other "fact checking" enterprises, its animating conceit is that opinions are what ideologues have, when in reality PolitiFact's curators also have political views and values that influence their judgments about facts and who is right in any debate. In this case, they even claim that the government takeover slogan "played an important role in shaping public opinion about the health-care plan and was a significant factor in the Democrats' shellacking in the November elections." In other words, voters turned so strongly against Democrats because Republicans "lied," and not because of, oh, anything the Democrats did while they were running Congress. Is that a "fact" or a political judgment? Just asking. As long as the press corps is nominating "lies of the year," ours goes to the formal legislative title of ObamaCare, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. For a bill that in reality will raise health costs and reduce patient choice, the name recalls Mary McCarthy's famous line about every word being a lie, including "the" and "and."
    Posted by UserName99[/QUOTE]

    Couldn't use your own words...you had to run crying to Daddy WSJ, huh...??  None of this is demonstrably factual (hence: opinion) and just picks on politifact.

    It shouldn't be hard.  Give it a shot.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die:
    [QUOTE]I'd say disingenuous more than a lie, and please spare me the definition of what constitutes a takeover, I know the gov't isn't nationalizing the industry. All politicans play to the cheap seats, so let's look at the spirit of the statement rather than the letter of it please, good forbid we take everything a politican says as literal when we know intentional hyperbole (57 states, lol) is being used for dramatic effect.  HCR mandates the purchase of coverage based soley upon the act of breathing, which is the takeover the right is looking to beat up upon.  Whether it's an overstep on congressional authority will be played out it and argued for many years in the courts until the SC finally hears it and puts it to bed, where IMHO many aspects will end up in the legislative graveyard.  Remember most of the New Deal was finally deemed unconstitutional, and I think the personal mandate will be the nail in the coffin there.  Congress will have a hard time playing the Commerce Clause when the bill does not even allow for the purchase of insurance across state lines...
    Posted by sshore123[/QUOTE]

    We pay into Medicare and Social Security unprompted, so why should pre-Medicare Health Care be any different as a matter of national policy or even as a matter of public health.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die : We pay into Medicare and Social Security unprompted, so why should pre-Medicare Health Care be any different as a matter of national policy or even as a matter of public health.
    Posted by MattyScornD[/QUOTE]

    For me preretirement, its my health insurance that I have because of my employment contract.  I'd rather argue with a private company than I would with a Federal Government bureaucrat who'd find a loophole for his connected friend but just stick to the public who pays his salary.

    Once I retire I get what I bargained for in this case Medicare with AARP Advantage Program.  

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die : We pay into Medicare and Social Security unprompted, so why should pre-Medicare Health Care be any different as a matter of national policy or even as a matter of public health.
    Posted by MattyScornD[/QUOTE]

    Just in case you didn't notice, Social Security and Medicare are broke, and will completely become unsustainable shortly. so, let's just throw another unfunded liability on top of the current problem.

    when will you socialist idiots get it?

    fools...evil fools.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhichOnesPink. Show WhichOnesPink's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die:
    [QUOTE]Good idea. I'd like to see one person on here demonstrate cogently how the HCR law truly represents a "government takeover" of healthcare....
    Posted by MattyScornD[/QUOTE]

    It doesn't....yet...: )
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BobinVa. Show BobinVa's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    Radical Democrat John Conyers clearly thinks that ObamaCare is the essential first step to single payer socialized medicine...
    When ObamaCare begins to destroy the private sector health care system, (whats left of it), the 'cure' for the chaos will then be a big dose of more government intervention, what caused the problems in the first place.....and so on...

    March 2011:
    “Do you see a single-payer health care system ultimately in the United States?”

    “Of course,” Conyers said. “Universal health care–well, every industrial country on the planet already has a universal system of health care.”

    When asked if he thinks President Obama’s health-care law will lead to a single-payer health-care system in the U.S., Conyers said: “Well it’s a platform. I don’t think they flow smoothly but without that, if we didn’t have this then health care, universal health care would be an even more difficult legislative objective,” he said.

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhichOnesPink. Show WhichOnesPink's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die : Couldn't use your own words...you had to run crying to Daddy WSJ, huh...??  None of this is demonstrably factual (hence: opinion) and just picks on politifact. It shouldn't be hard.  Give it a shot.
    Posted by MattyScornD[/QUOTE]

    You mean like how beKool does?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from sshore123. Show sshore123's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die : We pay into Medicare and Social Security unprompted, so why should pre-Medicare Health Care be any different as a matter of national policy or even as a matter of public health.
    Posted by MattyScornD[/QUOTE]

    But who is provding the services in those 2 examples
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die : Just in case you didn't notice, Social Security and Medicare are broke, and will completely become unsustainable shortly. so, let's just throw another unfunded liability on top of the current problem. when will you socialist idiots get it? fools...evil fools.
    Posted by skeeter20[/QUOTE]

    Much better to have our seniors broke and ill with a basic inability to survive.  Put them on an ice flow already!  Compassion is a dirty word for conservatives like you.  Ego over empathy.  Selfish over selfless.  Not very human at all.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BobinVa. Show BobinVa's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    "Compassion is a dirty word for conservatives like you."

    And liberal "compassion" is personally being selfish, not helping one on one, but forcefully imposing a monstrous statist cold bureacracy on everyone else.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from beKool. Show beKool's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    Sane people know its a false talking point .

    What really gets me is those that push the lie always cry about people being accountable . Here we have a golden opportunity to make that a reality in this area , but for some reason conservatives have no problem with a private for profit health care company forcing them to pay higher premiums/costs to insure what the right calls dead beats.

    Really where is the logic in that ?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die : Much better to have our seniors broke and ill with a basic inability to survive.  Put them on an ice flow already!  Compassion is a dirty word for conservatives like you.  Ego over empathy.  Selfish over selfless.  Not very human at all.
    Posted by Reubenhop[/QUOTE]

    Selfish?  Just an economic reality.  Lacking compassion?  Huh?  Again, oh, never mind.  just this:

    A, simple question.  Where does the money come from to provide these benefits?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    OK.  times up.  Geithner is paying for all this largess by raiding public pensions.

    Does that get your attention?   He is doing it.  I'm as serious as a heart attack.

    How you like them compassion apples now?




     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from whatnow4. Show whatnow4's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    Matty and Betool demanded that someone explain why it is a takeover. . . . so username provides a link to an article.

    One person mocks him for not using his own words (what happened to always posting links?) and the others mock the WSJ.

    You people are kooks! 

    By the way, if you mock username for posting a link and not using his words, please do the saem to betool.  All he does all day is copy and paste, without links, arguably trying to take creadit for other peopls thoughts.

    Copy any of his posts, and google it.  The search results will center on Dailykos/Huff post and other far left organizations.

    And then you people mock the WSJ?  Really?
     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName99. Show UserName99's posts

    Re: The (false) talking point that simply won't die

    Not a government takeover?

    Let's see:
    1.  Government defines what health insurance is.
    2.  Government defines what "minimum essential coverage" is.
    3.  Government forces everyone to buy one of four varieties of overpriced, low-value health insurance.
    4.  Government expands government-run Medicaid by 16 million people and plans to issue government checks to buy government-approved health insurance.

    5.  Congress establishes 159 government agencies to run the new health-care system, not to mention the 15,000 new IRS agents to implement it.
    6.  The government grants new powers to the Secretary of Health and Human Services, who will "deem," "create," "define," "determine," "approve," "disapprove" and otherwise dictate everything about health care in America.
    7.  The government takes away the power of individuals to appeal bad decisions by the secretary to the courts.
    8.  The government assigns Medicare patients to doctors they have never met.
    9.  The government penalizes doctors who don't save money for government and insurance companies or follow cookbook medicine guidelines while expanding rationing powers of government and the insurance companies that it now effectively controls.

    10.  The government encourages the creation of massive new "Accountable Care Organizations" and suggests that doctors join them so they can help the government and insurance companies ration care to patients.


    Nope, no government takeover in the 2,500 pages of legislation. The St. Petersburg Times should change the name of "politifact.com" to "politicalpropaganda.com."

     

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