The stimulus was a fraud

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    The stimulus was a fraud

    Remember when Jesus, I mean Barack Obama told us it would keep unemployment under 8%...
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    Remember when Paul Ryan said he never asked for stimulus funds, except that he did....
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": [QUOTE]Remember when Paul Ryan said he never asked for stimulus funds, except that he did.... Posted by DamainAllen[/QUOTE] Remember when Barack Obama said if he didn't have the economy fixed in 3 yrs he would be looking at a one term proposition.
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The stimulus was a fraud : I hope for once Barry is right on that prediction. Posted by NO MO O[/QUOTE] Bad news for an incumbent to have a challenger this close to him, things tend to break the challengers way.
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    If it was so bad, then why did Paul Ryan write so many letters to steer some of the stimulus to his district?  Is Paul Ryan complicit in the fraud?
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    In Response to Re: The stimulus was a fraud:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": Remember when Barack Obama said if he didn't have the economy fixed in 3 yrs he would be looking at a one term proposition.
    Posted by Harpua710[/QUOTE]

    I do.  And now the people will decide if his words were indeed a prophecy of what is to come in November. 
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": [QUOTE]If it was so bad, then why did Paul Ryan write so many letters to steer some of the stimulus to his district?  Is Paul Ryan complicit in the fraud? Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE] Who was more responsible for the nearly trillion dollar failure to keep unemployment under 8% Paul Ryan or Barack Obama?
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    In Response to Re: The stimulus was a fraud:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": Who was more responsible for the nearly trillion dollar failure to keep unemployment under 8% Paul Ryan or Barack Obama?
    Posted by Harpua710[/QUOTE]

    So now you're complaining about the Tax Cuts Obama got passed? One mintue you people are whining about Obama wants to raise taxes in the next you whine about him cutting taxes.  MAKE UP YOUR MIND.

    See if you can follow the logic.....

    The Stimulus bill was passed on February 17, 2009.  So how long after the passing of the bill should the country begin seeing the effects of the bill?  Can we agree that it takes longer than 2 weeks?

    The US Unemployment rate for February 2009 was....8.3%.

    So how could the Stimulus prevent something that had already happened?

    Oh, and Obama had been in office for less than 1 month.
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The stimulus was a fraud : So now you're complaining about the Tax Cuts Obama got passed? One mintue you people are whining about Obama wants to raise taxes in the next you whine about him cutting taxes.  MAKE UP YOUR MIND. See if you can follow the logic..... The Stimulus bill was passed on February 17, 2009.  So how long after the passing of the bill should the country begin seeing the effects of the bill?  Can we agree that it takes longer than 2 weeks? The US Unemployment rate for February 2009 was....8.3%. So how could the Stimulus prevent something that had already happened? Oh, and Obama had been in office for less than 1 month. detonate Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE] I haven't mentioned tax cuts or tax hikes as part of a stimulus or not, I am talking about the stimulus bill as a whole that he and his administration said would prevent unemployment from going above 8%, did they not make that claim? Also, does the labor department issue a months unemployment numbers during a month or on the first Friday of the following month? Obviously these geniuses thought just by passing a bill in February of 2009 the economy would just marvel at their greatness and magically stay under 8%. They said it not me. Unemployment was at 7.8% when they passed that incredible piece of legislation, we've been above 8% ever since, maybe they meant it would keep us above 8%? What was there forecast for where that magical piece of legislation would have the unemployment rate now in August of 2012? Can we agree that it wasn't at 8.3%? I'm being conservative on my guess here but I'm guessing somewhere around 6% but without looking it may have been a lower estimate.
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    Apprently understanding space and time is difficult for you.  Obama pressed for the stimulus and, yes, claimed it would prevent unemployment from passing 8%.  Now when data came out AFTER the stimulus was enacted we found that the hole we were in was actually much deeper than ANYONE anticipated and that unemployment had already passed 8 percent. 

    For more, I will let the fact checkers chime in:

    But what we saw from the administration in January 2009 was a projection, not a promise. And it was a projection that came with heavy disclaimers.

    "It should be understood that all of the estimates presented in this memo are subject to significant margins of error," the report states. "There is the more fundamental uncertainty that comes with any estimate of the effects of a program. Our estimates of economic relationships and rules of thumb are derived from historical experience and so will not apply exactly in any given episode. Furthermore, the uncertainty is surely higher than normal now because the current recession is unusual both in its fundamental causes and its severity."

    There's also a footnote that goes along with the chart that states: "Forecasts of the unemployment rate without the recovery plan vary substantially. Some private forecasters anticipate unemployment rates as high as 11% in the absence of action."

    The administration has acknowledged its projections were wrong.

    In a July 2, 2009, interview, Romer said on Fox: "None of us had a crystal ball back in December and January. I think almost every private forecaster realized that there were other things going on in the economy. It was worse than we anticipated."

    Indeed, in January 2009, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office projected the unemployment rate would climb to 8.3 percent in 2009 and peak at 9 percent in 2010. By February, the prediction was even higher — 9 percent in 2009 without the stimulus, and 7.7 to 8.5 percent with a stimulus.

     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": [QUOTE]Apprently understanding space and time is difficult for you.  Obama pressed for the stimulus and, yes, claimed it would prevent unemployment from passing 8%.  Now when data came out AFTER the stimulus was enacted we found that the hole we were in was actually much deeper than ANYONE anticipated and that unemployment had already passed 8 percent.  For more, I will let the fact checkers chime in: But what we saw from the administration in January 2009 was a projection, not a promise. And it was a projection that came with heavy disclaimers. "It should be understood that all of the estimates presented in this memo are subject to significant margins of error," the report states. "There is the more fundamental uncertainty that comes with any estimate of the effects of a program. Our estimates of economic relationships and rules of thumb are derived from historical experience and so will not apply exactly in any given episode. Furthermore, the uncertainty is surely higher than normal now because the current recession is unusual both in its fundamental causes and its severity." There's also a footnote that goes along with the chart that states: "Forecasts of the unemployment rate without the recovery plan vary substantially. Some private forecasters anticipate unemployment rates as high as 11% in the absence of action." The administration has acknowledged its projections were wrong. In a July 2, 2009, interview, Romer said on Fox: "None of us had a crystal ball back in December and January. I think almost every private forecaster realized that there were other things going on in the economy. It was worse than we anticipated." Indeed, in January 2009, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office projected the unemployment rate would climb to 8.3 percent in 2009 and peak at 9 percent in 2010. By February, the prediction was even higher — 9 percent in 2009 without the stimulus, and 7.7 to 8.5 percent with a stimulus. Posted by DamainAllen[/QUOTE] So between election day 2008, thru the transition and after getting into office, these geniuses had yet to gauge how bad the economy was and could only figure that out after the stimulus was passed? I mean, I'm not an economist but didn't we lose something like 700,000 jobs in January of 2009? They then promised it would keep us under 8% after that while it was at 7.8? I would imagine these geniuses would know that just by passing a bill they couldn't stop the unemployment rate from ticking up another .2% after such catastrophic job losses the month prior
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    In Response to Re: The stimulus was a fraud:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": I haven't mentioned tax cuts or tax hikes as part of a stimulus or not, I am talking about the stimulus bill as a whole that he and his administration said would prevent unemployment from going above 8%, did they not make that claim? Also, does the labor department issue a months unemployment numbers during a month or on the first Friday of the following month? Obviously these geniuses thought just by passing a bill in February of 2009 the economy would just marvel at their greatness and magically stay under 8%. They said it not me. Unemployment was at 7.8% when they passed that incredible piece of legislation, we've been above 8% ever since, maybe they meant it would keep us above 8%? What was there forecast for where that magical piece of legislation would have the unemployment rate now in August of 2012? Can we agree that it wasn't at 8.3%? I'm being conservative on my guess here but I'm guessing somewhere around 6% but without looking it may have been a lower estimate.
    Posted by Harpua710[/QUOTE]

    "......find no instance of anyone in the administration directly making such a public pledge. Rather, it comes via a Jan. 9, 2009, report called "The Job Impact of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan" from Christina Romer, chairwoman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, and Jared Bernstein, the vice president's top economic adviser."

    Their report projected that the stimulus plan proposed by Obama would create 3 million to 4 million jobs by the end of 2010. The report also included a chart predicting unemployment rates with and without the stimulus. Without the stimulus (the baseline), unemployment was projected to hit about 8.5 percent in 2009 and then continue rising to a peak of about 9 percent in 2010. With the stimulus, they predicted the unemployment rate would peak at just under 8 percent in 2009.


    The projection that came with heavy disclaimers.

    "It should be understood that all of the estimates presented in this memo are subject to significant margins of error," the report states. "There is the more fundamental uncertainty that comes with any estimate of the effects of a program. Our estimates of economic relationships and rules of thumb are derived from historical experience and so will not apply exactly in any given episode. Furthermore, the uncertainty is surely higher than normal now because the current recession is unusual both in its fundamental causes and its severity."

    There's also a footnote that goes along with the chart that states: "Forecasts of the unemployment rate without the recovery plan vary substantially. Some private forecasters anticipate unemployment rates as high as 11% in the absence of action."

    Could it be that none of the models where programmed to take into consideration a collapse of the banking system?

    This is the slowest recovery since WWII because the last time our banking system collpased was before WWII.

    Do you guys not understand what happened to the banking system at the end of 2008?  Do you now understand we were on the brink of the entire economy collapsing?

     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    I mean when you're losing hundreds of thousands of jobs each month and in the previous month you've lost 700,000, you're defense is we didn't know how had it was? Even though you've had the transition and and weeks after that in office to gauge how bad it was? I mean are they idiots? 700,000 jobs lost the month prior, I can pretty much guarantee no bill is going to stop job loss dead in its tracks and prevent unemployment from rising another .2%, yet these geniuses did just that after losing 700,000 jobs the month prior but the say didn't know how bad it was. If that is true it says A LOT about their supposed intelligence.
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The stimulus was a fraud : "......find no instance of anyone in the administration directly making such a public pledge. Rather, it comes via a Jan. 9, 2009, report called "The Job Impact of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan" from Christina Romer, chairwoman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, and Jared Bernstein, the vice president's top economic adviser." Their report projected that the stimulus plan proposed by Obama would create 3 million to 4 million jobs by the end of 2010. The report also included a chart predicting unemployment rates with and without the stimulus. Without the stimulus (the baseline), unemployment was projected to hit about 8.5 percent in 2009 and then continue rising to a peak of about 9 percent in 2010. With the stimulus, they predicted the unemployment rate would peak at just under 8 percent in 2009. The projection that came with heavy disclaimers. "It should be understood that all of the estimates presented in this memo are subject to significant margins of error," the report states. "There is the more fundamental uncertainty that comes with any estimate of the effects of a program. Our estimates of economic relationships and rules of thumb are derived from historical experience and so will not apply exactly in any given episode. Furthermore, the uncertainty is surely higher than normal now because the current recession is unusual both in its fundamental causes and its severity." There's also a footnote that goes along with the chart that states: "Forecasts of the unemployment rate without the recovery plan vary substantially. Some private forecasters anticipate unemployment rates as high as 11% in the absence of action." Could it be that none of the models where programmed to take into consideration a collapse of the banking system? This is the slowest recovery since WWII because the last time our banking system collpased was before WWII. Do you guys not understand what happened to the banking system at the end of 2008?  Do you now understand we were on the brink of the entire economy collapsing? Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE] so the presidents advisors saying things doesn't count? Do these advisors say these things on their own accord or because they want to sell the administrations agenda? Do you now understand that making that prediction,claim statement, whatever you want to call it after the fall of 2008, his transition and after his inauguration while losing hundreds of thousands of jobs a month, 700,000 the month prior and then saying we didn't know how bad it wad makes them look even more inept and not prepared to do this job, which is why he will be a one termer.
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    In Response to Re: The stimulus was a fraud:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": so the presidents advisors saying things doesn't count? Do these advisors say these things on their own accord or because they want to sell the administrations agenda? Do you now understand that making that prediction,claim statement, whatever you want to call it after the fall of 2008, his transition and after his inauguration while losing hundreds of thousands of jobs a month, 700,000 the month prior and then saying we didn't know how bad it wad makes them look even more inept and not prepared to do this job, which is why he will be a one termer.
    Posted by Harpua710[/QUOTE]

    The economic advisors said the economy would be worse if they didn't have a stimulus.  Does that not register with you? 

    Are you bothered by the 8% claim or that the stimulus wasn't as effective as they thought it would be?

    Are you suggesting that if he had better advisors and saw the conditions of the economy deteriorating, Obama would have asked for and gotten a bigger stimulus?  Because that seems to be your argument - that Obama's advisors under estimated the severity of the situation, which they said was severe.
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraudy

    In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The stimulus was a fraud : The economic advisors said the economy would be worse if they didn't have a stimulus.  Does that not register with you?  Are you bothered by the 8% claim or that the stimulus wasn't as effective as they thought it would be? Are you suggesting that if he had better advisors and saw the conditions of the economy deteriorating, Obama would have asked for and gotten a bigger stimulus?  Because that seems to be your argument - that Obama's advisors under estimated the severity of the situation, which they said was severe. Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE] Wow, you just don't get it. After losing hundreds of thousands of jobs a month and 700,000 the month prior to say we didn't know how bad it was regardless of the dumb 8% projection that was made or not makes them look stupid. When was the last time the economy was losing 700,000 jobs a month??? They constantly quote that number now to explain how bad things were, they had those figures then when they were coming out but they didn't know how bad things were. Does the magnitude of these numbers somehow become worse in time than when they were occurring? This cannot be defended, we didn't know how bad it was, a 5th grader could've figured out how bad it was but these guys needed 3 yrs to figure that out. Thank God for "recovery summer" in 2010!
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    You've lost me.

    Are you upset that the stimulus wasn't able to keep the unemployment rate below 8% even though by the time the ink on the bill was dry the unemployment rate was already above 8%?

    Are you upset that the President didn't fully appreciate what it would take to reverse the job losses and ask for a bigger stimulus?

    Are you upset that they had a stimulus bill at all and would have preferred the economy to continue to loss 700,000 jobs a month?

    Or maybe you're upset that Bush didn't pass the stimulus soon after the financial sector collapsed to prevent the rate of job loss to accelerate like it did.

    Not sure what you're whining about, but he sounds like you're upset that Obama wasn't a wizard who could wave a wand and fix all of the problems of the economy overnight, even though they were 8 years in the making.

    The economy was bad.  They said they needed a stimulus to prevent it from getting worse.  They got the stimulus and the rate of job losses fell sharply and we started seeing job gains.

    Would you feel better if the President had gone on TV and said "we are facing the greatest threat to our country since the great depresession.  We have 2 choices.  Do nothing and watch economy be completely ravaged, possible starting WW III, which is what happened the last time we were in this position.  Or pass a stimulus bill that should stem the rate of job loss and the then gradually allow the economy to grow."  I'm sure a statement like that from the President wouldn't have caused any panic, especially given that everyone was pretty freaked out at the end of 2008 and beginning of 2009.

     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraudup

    In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": [QUOTE]You've lost me. Are you upset that the stimulus wasn't able to keep the unemployment rate below 8% even though by the time the ink on the bill was dry the unemployment rate was already above 8%? Are you upset that the President didn't fully appreciate what it would take to reverse the job losses and ask for a bigger stimulus? Are you upset that they had a stimulus bill at all and would have preferred the economy to continue to loss 700,000 jobs a month? Or maybe you're upset that Bush didn't pass the stimulus soon after the financial sector collapsed to prevent the rate of job loss to accelerate like it did. Not sure what you're whining about, but he sounds like you're upset that Obama wasn't a wizard who could wave a wand and fix all of the problems of the economy overnight, even though they were 8 years in the making. The economy was bad.  They said they needed a stimulus to prevent it from getting worse.  They got the stimulus and the rate of job losses fell sharply and we started seeing job gains. Would you feel better if the President had gone on TV and said "we are facing the greatest threat to our country since the great depresession.  We have 2 choices.  Do nothing and watch economy be completely ravaged, quote possible starting WW III, which is what happened the last time we were in this position.  Or pass a stimulus bill that should stem the rate of job loss and the then gradually allow the economy to grow."  I'm sure a statement like that from the President wouldn't have caused any panic, especially given that everyone was pretty freaked out at the end of 2008 and beginning of 2009. Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE] WWW III, you're funny. He made a claim when it was at 7.8, it went up to 10%. The stimulus wasn't the magic pill he and his cronies thought it would be, they told is we'd be down to 6% or below by now, that hasn't come close to happening. So the line they gave us was we didn't know how bad it was, well at 700,000 jobs a month an idiot could know how bad it was but not these geniuses. He then went full throttle into healthcare, another fiasco. End of story. WWW III. lol, not everything is solved with spending, its a house of cards. The stimulus didn't save us or bring us back from the brink it only sunk us deeper into debt, no matter how many Keynesian. economists. you want to quote. I
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraudup

    In Response to Re: The stimulus was a fraudup:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": WWW III, you're funny. He made a claim when it was at 7.8, it went up to 10%. The stimulus wasn't the magic pill he and his cronies thought it would be, they told is we'd be down to 6% or below by now, that hasn't come close to happening. So the line they gave us was we didn't know how bad it was, well at 700,000 jobs a month an idiot could know how bad it was but not these geniuses. He then went full throttle into healthcare, another fiasco. End of story. WWW III. lol, not everything is solved with spending, its a house of cards. The stimulus didn't save us or bring us back from the brink it only sunk us deeper into debt, no matter how many Keynesian. economists. you want to quote. I
    Posted by Harpua710[/QUOTE]

    Oh, so you think the stimulus did nothing.  A $900 billion infusion and it did nothing. 

    Are you going to stick with that?  Ok, so what happened to the $900 billion?  Did it just disappear?   And please share why you think it did nothing?  What prevented it from working?  Why does keynesian not work?

    Do you know the difference between a Keynesian and a Monetarist?  Would it surprise you that in addition to Keynesian policies, they were using every Monetarist tool they could think of?  And by your logic, that means monetarists policies don't work either.  Which means we're kind of f*cked because there's only 2 ways to stimulate the economy.

    By the way, let me clue you in.  The argument against keynesian is that government borrowing causes interest rates to go up making it harder for the private sector to borrow money, effectively choking off the benefit from keynesian policies.  And it's true in the long run.  But interest rates are at record low for obviously that hasn't happened.

    And the argument against Monetarist?  When interest rates are at 0% there's not a whole lot the Central Bank can do to stimulate the economy.

    This is intro to Macro Economics. 
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    Who care who said what?  The stimulus DID NOT WORK, period, regardless of whether keeping unemployment under 8% or not.  It actually rose to over 10%, and in fact, is STILL over 10%, except for the slight of hand in the workforce participation rate.

    the only thing the stimulus did was pad some jobs at local municipalities, essentially another union job saving bill.  Those of us in the private sector did not benefit in terms of the unemployment rat.e
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraudup": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The stimulus was a fraudup : Oh, so you think the stimulus did nothing.  A $900 billion infusion and it did nothing.  Are you going to stick with that?  Ok, so what happened to the $900 billion?  Did it just disappear?   And please share why you think it did nothing?  What prevented it from working?  Why does keynesian not work? Do you know the difference between a Keynesian and a Monetarist?  Would it surprise you that in addition to Keynesian policies, they were using every Monetarist tool they could think of?  And by your logic, that means monetarists policies don't work either.  Which means we're kind of f*cked because there's only 2 ways to stimulate the economy. By the way, let me clue you in.  The argument against keynesian is that government borrowing causes interest rates to go up making it harder for the private sector to borrow money, effectively choking off the benefit from keynesian policies.  And it's true in the long run.  But interest rates are at record low for obviously that hasn't happened. And the argument against Monetarist?  When interest rates are at 0% there's not a whole lot the Central Bank can do to stimulate the economy. This is intro to Macro Economics.  Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE] Thank You, I've taken economics courses on my way to an Ma in poly sci from the city university of new york, now please tell me how this cash infusion has us sitting at 8.3% unemployment today. Jobs saved/jobs created is a terrific made up statistic. Bottom line dirtywater, this guy has not gotten the job done and his days at the helm are numbered. He didn't know how bad it was, well then he's too inept to be there. Romney isn't my first choice but he's far better than this failed experiment.
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    It's too bad that you didn't actually pay attention in your Econ courses. You may have actually learned something. You took Econ courses. You're the one that thinks the $900 stimulus had no impact on the economy. You tell me what happened to the $900 billion. Impress me with your MA from City College of NY. Or do they just degrees away at City College of New York?
     
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    Re: The stimulus was a fraud

    In response to "Re: The stimulus was a fraud": [QUOTE]It's too bad that you didn't actually pay attention in your Econ courses. You may have actually learned something. You took Econ courses. You're the one that thinks the $900 stimulus had no impact on the economy. You tell me what happened to the $900 billion. Impress me with your MA from City College of NY. Or do they just degrees away at City College of New York? Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE] I didn't say it did nothing but why aren't we around 6% unemployment like these geniuses said we'd be by now? You're the one that said the stimulus prevented WWW III, we get it man you drank the kool -aid and just love all things Obama and will defend things that didn't do what he said they would do. At this point since things haven't worked its time to play the race game and use class warfare, you should go work at MSNBC they do that over did you see that idiot Toure (what idiot uses one name) used the n-word on tv. Panic has set in when they start using n-word on MSNBC.
     

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