Trayvon-Zimmerman

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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : So the "Justifiable Homicide...table 15" would show all deaths. I think those numbers would be more appropriate as to whether the charge that "homicides skyrocketed" is true or not.
    Posted by airborne-rgr


    Expanded Table 15 is for the whole US, not just Florida or states with Stand Your Ground Laws.  For the country as a whole from 2006-2010, justifiable homicides increased but didn't skyrocket and, as a rate per 100,000, may have even dropped. 
     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : Notice just how small the cuts are. I've also cut my scalp - you tend to bleed like hell from a tiny wound.
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow


    Yea consistent with someone sitting on you pounding you head into the sidewalk
     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    Airborne, thank you for following through on those homicide statisics.

    Back to Zimmerman, it seems we are still at the point will he be able to use the Stand Your Ground Law as a defense. If not, then I cannot see how he will not be convicted.

    They have already determined by forensics that the gunshot was at close range. If they determine that he was the agressor, under Florida law he cannot use SYGL as a defense. That if he provoked the confrontation, he probably will not be able to use SYGL as a defense.

     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : I really can't believe that injuries that didn't require hospitalization or least extended medical care can be considered 'life threatening'. It defies common sense.
    Posted by airborne-rgr

    airborne:

    In the bail hearing, there was testimony that Zimmerman had 2 lacerations on the back of his head. 

    I agree they could hardly be considered "life threatening".

    In addition, if Zimmerman is found to have been the aggressor, he will not be able to use the Stand Your Ground Law as a defense, even if he got hurt before he killed Martin.

    Further, since Martin is dead, and cannot testify, we do not even know if these are not self-inflicted lacerations. I do not know if anyone has brought this up, but Zimmerman must have known he was in a world of trouble after he killed Martin. It is not unknown for parties in a criminal action to alter the evidence in their behalf prior to the arrival of the police.

     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : I really can't believe that injuries which didn't require hospitalization or least extended medical care can be considered 'life threatening'. It defies common sense.
    Posted by airborne-rgr

    Are you an ER doc?  Paramedic?  What is the basis for your conclusion?

    I'm not defending Zimmerman but I will say head wounds can be very deceptive...


     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : Bullsh!t If someone has their head pounded into a sidewalk, they will get medical attention.
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow


    Coming into this late and really haven't followed matter for a couple weeks.  Are you sure that he didn't receive medical attention?
     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : I did find this at the CDC website which breaks down all deaths into categories. The numbers do show a marked increase from 2005 on. Year   Deaths Population 2004 - 658 -17,375,259 2005 - 645 -17,783,868 2006 - 821 -18,088,505 2007 - 956 -18,277,888 2008 - 904 -18,423,878 2009 - 822 -18,537,969 Total -4,806 -108,487,367 http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe The criteria I selected: Homicide and Legal intervention Firearm Florida All Races Both sexes All Ages Group by: Year
    Posted by airborne-rgr


    Part of the problem is inconsistency of the data.  The CDC gets their information from the state health agency whereas the FBI gets the data from law enforcement.  I ran a query similar to yours only not including legal intervention, which I assumed was shootings by law enforcement deemed appropriate.  The flow of the rate per 100,000 ran similar to the FBI stats: A slight rise in 06 & 07 and then a decline the last two years.

    Yea      Deaths Population    rate/100K Age adjusted

    1999 545 15,759,421 3.46 3.65
    2000 467 15,982,378 2.92 3.05
    2001 573 16,353,869 3.50 3.65
    2002 635 16,680,309 3.81 4.00
    2003 660 16,981,183 3.89 4.07
    2004 647 17,375,259 3.72 3.86
    2005 631 17,783,868 3.55 3.75
    2006 803 18,088,505 4.44 4.63
    2007 935 18,277,888 5.12 5.38
    2008 886 18,423,878 4.81 5.09
    2009 804 18,537,969 4.34

     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : Perhaps personal experience. At least that's what my comments regarding the head injuries are. In my youth, wrestling, playing football, and doing stupid things, I have had the opportunity to have my nose smashed, my head baanged into the ground, my head being baanged into other helmets, being knocked flat unconscious, and yes, ending up with a bunch of glass shards sticking out of my head (producing a downright river of blood from pretty minor wounds). That still shows two small scrapes to the scalp. Now that does not necessarily mean that there was not a concussive shock from the impact. But the point I tend to agree with (again, experience), is this: When your head really is slammed with serious force into the ground, you tend to get medical attention. Now maybe, if your a reckless sports player, you will do your best to shake it off and finish whatever you're doing first - provided your legs still work - but you do end up getting help. Something is very obviously wrong when you have a concussion. In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : I heard that troopers cleaned him up in the cruiser. But believe I read he did not seek medical attention. Though a witness said the next day he had bandages on.
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow


    A head does bleed excessively for even the smallest cuts.  However, I read that he refused medical treatment at the scene and went to the hospital on his own later.  That seems to be backed up by O'Mara's questioning the lead investigator if he got Zimmerman's medical records.  When he said no, he didn't, O'Mara offered them to him.  Leads me to believe there's something in there that's relevant.
     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    Forum quarterbacks, that's all we are. We could come up with a hundred different scenarios. Not a one of us was there that night. We don't know if Zimmerman lost his balance and fell, if he took down Trayvon then ended up at the bottom of the scrum, or if Trayvon took down Zimmerman. Time will tell if both sides have gathered all the facts and have reliable evidence. Then again we may never know the whole story. IMO, by watching the bail hearing....both sides will leave no rock unturned. The bail hearing took it down to the tiniest detail in which the usage of wording was questioned.
    Posted by msobstinate99

    msobstinate:

    If you do not want to be a "forum quarterback" then for heavens sake do not participate. For those that wish to discuss this case, it would be nice not to label them in a degrading fashion.

    As for your analysis, the central issue remains, was Zimmerman the aggressor that night? If so, he will not be able to assert the Stand Your Ground Law as a defense. In that case, I can see, as most people, no way he will not be convicted.

     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : Part of the problem is inconsistency of the data.  The CDC gets their information from the state health agency whereas the FBI gets the data from law enforcement.  I ran a query similar to yours only not including legal intervention, which I assumed was shootings by law enforcement deemed appropriate.  The flow of the rate per 100,000 ran similar to the FBI stats: A slight rise in 06 & 07 and then a decline the last two years. Yea      Deaths Population    rate/100K Age adjusted 1999 545 15,759,421 3.46 3.65 2000 467 15,982,378 2.92 3.05 2001 573 16,353,869 3.50 3.65 2002 635 16,680,309 3.81 4.00 2003 660 16,981,183 3.89 4.07 2004 647 17,375,259 3.72 3.86 2005 631 17,783,868 3.55 3.75 2006 803 18,088,505 4.44 4.63 2007 935 18,277,888 5.12 5.38 2008 886 18,423,878 4.81 5.09 2009 804 18,537,969 4.34
    Posted by Hingmarsh

    Hingmarsh:

    If you look at homicides involving a firearm before the SYG law and afterwards, there is a statistically significant increase....from about 59% in the before period to about 67% in the after period.

     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : It's fun being a forum quarterback. Lighten up, no need to be so sensitive. I never realized posting in an anonymous forum had a specific title. Geez.
    Posted by msobstinate99

    msobstinate:

    I would very much like to "lighten up" with you. I would like to leave the past in the past and move forward. With all due civility and respect.

    As for fun. That is not why everyone posts here. Many post to , among other reasons, help crystallize their opinions on various issues, and have stated so. They also come to try to have exchanges with posters of differing viewpoints. 

    I also come to learn from posters whose views are more in line with my own. And I have. Quite a lot.

    Maybe you can accept I take it fairly seriously, and that is why I put the time and energy into this, and I will accept you come here with a lighter attitude.

     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : Hingmarsh: If you look at homicides involving a firearm before the SYG law and afterwards, there is a statistically significant increase....from about 59% in the before period to about 67% in the after period. http://open.salon.com/blog/kanuk/2012/04/20/added_homicides_more_evidence_against_stand_your_ground
    Posted by andiejen


    Once again I think there are inconsistencies in the data.  The Salon poster states that he/she got the data from the FBI and Florida Law Enforcement but the number of homicides he/she lists by year are far above those of the FBI and CDC.  I think it's difficult to get a true picture without consistent data.  Plus, the SYG law is not a gun law but a self defense law.  Assuming there were increases in total homicides by firearms after the SYG law, they were followed by decreases in the last couple years.  We don't really know why these occured but a reasonable person could ask the following:  1)  How much of the increase is due to attackers rather than victims being killed 2). In those cases, how many potential victims lives were saved?  I doubt it was always a 1:1 ratio as I would bet that in many instances a shooter was defending not just him or herself, but also family members.  It's difficult to know the true effects of this law without more in depth study.
     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : Perhaps personal experience. At least that's what my comments regarding the head injuries are. In my youth, wrestling, playing football, and doing stupid things, I have had the opportunity to have my nose smashed, my head baanged into the ground, my head being baanged into other helmets, being knocked flat unconscious, and yes, ending up with a bunch of glass shards sticking out of my head (producing a downright river of blood from pretty minor wounds). That still shows two small scrapes to the scalp. Now that does not necessarily mean that there was not a concussive shock from the impact. But the point I tend to agree with (again, experience), is this: When your head really is slammed with serious force into the ground, you tend to get medical attention. Now maybe, if your a reckless sports player, you will do your best to shake it off and finish whatever you're doing first - provided your legs still work - but you do end up getting help. Something is very obviously wrong when you have a concussion. In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : I heard that troopers cleaned him up in the cruiser. But believe I read he did not seek medical attention. Though a witness said the next day he had bandages on.
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow

    From personal experience playing contact sports and as a paramedic for a few years, I think it's fair to say that head injuries can be quite deceptive and there isn't always a lot of visible trauma.  The scalp is extremely vascular, which is why it bleeds so much, even with a minor scrape.  There appears to be documented injuries, but it's impossible to determine the extent of the injury without a medical evaluation.  If he was concussed, his decision making ability may be impaired, including the decision to immediately seek or not seek medical attention.  The trooper who cleaned him in the car, if that happened, is pretty dumb.  If he needed cleaning up in the car, he should have been transported.  So the question is did he seek medical attention after he was done with the cops?  Whatever the answer to the question is, he may have embellished his story a bit.

     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : Hingmarsh: If you look at homicides involving a firearm before the SYG law and afterwards, there is a statistically significant increase....from about 59% in the before period to about 67% in the after period. http://open.salon.com/blog/kanuk/2012/04/20/added_homicides_more_evidence_against_stand_your_ground
    Posted by andiejen


    I looked through the analysis provided in the link you posted.  It is flawed.  The author omitted critical data needed to determine if the differences are stastically significant.  Just eyeballing the points that are included, it's a hard sell.  Is there an increase?  Yes.  Statistically significant?  Maybe, maybe not.   
     
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    Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman

    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman:
    In Response to Re: Trayvon-Zimmerman : The reason it ran similar to FBI data is because your query is leaving out exactly those homcides that would be deemed 'justifiable' under the SYG law. Legal intervention does, in no way, restrict it to law enforcement. Anyone can be in a position to legally use deadly force.  Legal intervention, even if only by law enforcement, would not explain a 30% increase in firearm deaths. Legal intervention means ANY death which was deemed not be be unlawful which includes those under SYG laws. In order to get an accurate statistic you need to include ALL firearm deaths, both legal and otherwise, and then look at those deemed 'legal intervention. That means there was a significant increase in firearm deaths immediately following the SYG law.
    Posted by airborne-rgr


    Oh, no doubt there was a significant Total Homicides increase following the SYG law but the last three years have declined and, on a rate basis, 2010 was insignificantly higher than 2005. The FBI Expanded Table 15, Justifiable Homicides only shows increases of 3-4% on average for 2006-2010.  Even if they were included, they would not explain why 06 & 07 spiked.  Why 2006 and 2007 spiked is something we don't know for sure.  But there have been declines in the rates the last three years.
     
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