While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    It may be the most incriminating evidence yet.

    Last week, while the world’s eyes were fixed upon the Obama administration’s fumbled response to the Syria crisis, new documents emerged in the allegedly “phony” IRS scandal.

    These documents – emails from Lois Lerner, then Director of Exempt Organizations at the IRS – were short, but highly damaging to the IRS’s persistent (and pernicious) spin.

    The first email, a February 1, 2011, message to – among others – Obama donor and fellow IRS executive Holly Paz, proclaims: “Tea Party matter very dangerous. This could be the vehicle to go to court on the issue over whether Citizen’s United overturning the ban on corporate spending applies to tax exempt rules . . . Cincy should probably NOT have these cases – Holly please see what they have please [sic].”

    The next key email, sent on July 10, 2012 (just as the 2012 election season was truly heating up) came in response to an article forwarded to Lerner noting Democratic complaints that anonymous donors could be influencing Senate races.

    Lois Lerner’s emails are proving our case: the IRS is partisan, it’s corrupt and its leaders don’t tell the truth.

     

    Lerner’s immediate response? “Perhaps the FEC will save the day.”

    Save the day from what? Democratic losses? Constitutionally-protected free speech?

    Though short, these emails tell us three key things:

    First, Lois Lerner unquestionably misled the public when she stated in her initial, May 10, 2013, apology for IRS targeting that the scandal centered around “our line people in Cincinnati.” In reality, this was and is a Washington scandal, with senior IRS officials at the epicenter.

    Reading her May statement now, one is struck by the extent to which she blames the scandal entirely on Cincinnati personnel, repeatedly distancing herself from the decisions, except as a problem-solver. Those responsible were “they,” while those who allegedly fixed the problem were “we.”

    Second, key leaders at the IRS are highly partisan. Lerner’s May statement contains this howler: “They didn’t do this because of any political bias. They did this because they were working together.”

    I guess that statement brings new meaning to the Democrats’ admonition that government is “simply the name we give to the things we choose to do together,” but it is, ultimately, false.

    We already knew that Holly Paz, then the director of the Office of Ruling and Agreements, was a substantial donor to the Obama campaign, but now we know that Democratic complaints were of specific concern to Lois Lerner – of enough concern that she was hoping that the Federal Election Commission would “save the day.”

    But of course, she didn’t need the FEC to save the day for the Democrats. The IRS was saving the day quite effectively on its own.

    At the ACLJ, we represent 41 conservative groups in 22 states – many of them 2012 battleground states – that faced considerable delays and harassment from the IRS. Their activities were hampered, their fundraising crippled, and their attention diverted by intrusive and improper IRS questions.

    Or, put another way, as we stated in our Amended Complaint, the IRS “substantially and materially interfered with Plaintiffs’ abilities to engage in effective advocacy and other expressive activities.”

    Third, it’s deeply discouraging to read the extent of Lerner’s hostility to the First Amendment. The Citizen’s United ruling, which she so obviously disdained, significantly expanded free speech rights and further protected political speech from government control – an evident nightmare for a partisan bureaucrat like Lerner.

    The IRS, arguably the nation’s most intrusive arm of government, should not be taking positions against free speech. At worst it should be agnostic, and ideally its employees should remember their fundamental obligation: to protect the Constitution of the United States.

    From the beginning of this scandal, we at the ACLJ have been acutely aware of the IRS’s partisan bias. We provided evidence of this bias more than a year before Lerner’s false “apology” on May 10. Yet the mainstream media and many political leaders yawned.

    No one should be yawning now. Lois Lerner’s emails are proving our case. The IRS is partisan, it’s corrupt, and its leaders don’t tell the truth.



    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/17/irs-corruption-update-three-key-revelations-from-lois-lerners-emails/#ixzz2fLDWkc1j

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    I agree but, we can only change the future not the past.

    This was during an election cycle and could have directly affected our democratic process and that is what is most troubling!

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from StalkingButler. Show StalkingButler's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    Citizen's United expanded free speech rights for only a very small subset of Americans and allowed those Americans' speech to more easily drown out everyone else

    Indeed. And that became so evident in the last election.

    /eyeroll

     

    --

    Think for yourself, question authority.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    Citizen's United expanded free speech rights for only a very small subset of Americans and allowed those Americans' speech to more easily drown out everyone else's.

    [QUOTE]

    Not that it's any relevence since the IRS is not supposed to police that.


    any evidence of that opinion? I'll wait.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hansoribrother. Show Hansoribrother's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    The IRS is out harassing people and organizations based on their political point of view and all the lefties can think about is Citizens United ruling.

    If Bush were out using the IRS to harass Planned Parenthood, moveon.org, etc. what would they be saying??

    The truth is that the lefties are perfectly happy obstructing civil liberties - as long as they get to choose who's rights get restricted.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

    The IRS is out harassing people and organizations based on their political point of view and all the lefties can think about is Citizens United ruling.

    If Bush were out using the IRS to harass Planned Parenthood, moveon.org, etc. what would they be saying??

    The truth is that the lefties are perfectly happy obstructing civil liberties - as long as they get to choose who's rights get restricted.

     

    Or ACORN?

    Planned Parenthood is not a political organization, and MoveOn.org is a PAC.  This pretty much sums up why this will never be a real scandal - tea party groups wanted very badly to commit tax fraud, and the IRS delayed them and made them fill out extra paperwork ... before they were allowed to commit tax fraud.  

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

    The IRS is out harassing people and organizations based on their political point of view and all the lefties can think about is Citizens United ruling.


    Drop the pretense that the two charged notions are mutually exclusive.

    Or are you willing to vouch for all of these "social welfare" organizations whose sole purpose is to raise money for greedy pols...?

     

    If one concedes that money in politics is a problem, then Citizens United is a strategic battlefront to combat it.

     

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hansoribrother. Show Hansoribrother's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to slomag's comment:

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

    The IRS is out harassing people and organizations based on their political point of view and all the lefties can think about is Citizens United ruling.

    If Bush were out using the IRS to harass Planned Parenthood, moveon.org, etc. what would they be saying??

    The truth is that the lefties are perfectly happy obstructing civil liberties - as long as they get to choose who's rights get restricted.

     

     

     

    Or ACORN?

    Planned Parenthood is not a political organization, and MoveOn.org is a PAC.  This pretty much sums up why this will never be a real scandal - tea party groups wanted very badly to commit tax fraud, and the IRS delayed them and made them fill out extra paperwork ... before they were allowed to commit tax fraud.  

     



    Planned Parenthood, in real life, is most certainly a political organization.

    Glad to see that you are OK with IRS targetting political groups. Fine supporter of the constitution are you!

    Donations to MoveOn.org Civic Action, a 501(c)(4) issue advocacy organization, are used primarily for our nonpartisan civic engagement projects. Click here to contribute by check. Donations made on this page will not be used to support or oppose any federal candidates; that work is being done by MoveOn.org Civic Action's sister organization, MoveOn.org Political Action. Your financial support of MoveOn.org Civic Action makes our important work possible.

    If you are OK with the IRS going after Tea Party organizations, I'm sure you'd have no problem with some future Republican adminstration doing same with moveon.org?

    What afugging hypocrite.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hansoribrother. Show Hansoribrother's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

    The IRS is out harassing people and organizations based on their political point of view and all the lefties can think about is Citizens United ruling.

     

     


    Drop the pretense that the two charged notions are mutually exclusive.

    Or are you willing to vouch for all of these "social welfare" organizations whose sole purpose is to raise money for greedy pols...?

     

    If one concedes that money in politics is a problem, then Citizens United is a strategic battlefront to combat it.

     

     



    I am for whatever the laws allow. Are only conservative groups out there getting donations for pols? I hardly doubt it. Then why single out groups based on their political beliefs?

    The problem with money in politics is not the poeple donating money, it is the people taking it. WHat passes the sniff test now used to be called a bribe.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from macnh1. Show macnh1's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........


    obama used the IRS to go after his oponents...get over it, he's untouchable and nobody cares......he covered up benghazi...nobody cares...move on....obama is great and he does no wrong....and we love him so much that theres nothing he cant get away with....

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

    The problem with money in politics is not the poeple donating money, it is the people taking it. WHat passes the sniff test now used to be called a bribe.

     


    It takes two to tango.  Always has, always will.  They are peddling influence and the rich are certainly buying it.

    Denying this is willful blindness.

    It's still bribery with a different name, and using the law as an umbrella doesn't change that or the corruption at hand.

     

     
  13. This post has been removed.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    Which is it? You agree with what I said about Citizens United or not? 

    I thought it was clear that I wasn't commenting on the IRS issue. I already made myself clear. IF there was improper targetting, let the necessary heads roll. If there is evidence that Obama ordered it, like the evidence that Nixon ordered and covered up Watergate, then let him go Nixon's route.



    I agree that some groups can drown out others.

    I do not believe it was relevent to this conversation or that the IRS has any authority to regulate that.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to MattyScornD

    Or are you willing to vouch for all of these "social welfare" organizations whose sole purpose is to raise money for greedy pols...?

     

    If one concedes that money in politics is a problem, then Citizens United is a strategic battlefront to combat it.

     [/QUOTE]

    That's irrelevent to this thread since the IRS has no authority to decide who is "raising money for greedy pols" and whop isn't.

     
  16. This post has been removed.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to tvoter's comment:

     

    Third, it’s deeply discouraging to read the extent of Lerner’s hostility to the First Amendment. The Citizen’s United ruling, which she so obviously disdained, significantly expanded free speech rights and further protected political speech from government control – an evident nightmare for a partisan bureaucrat like Lerner.

     

    Citizen's United expanded free speech rights for only a very small subset of Americans and allowed those Americans' speech to more easily drown out everyone else's.

     



    It didn't expand any rights.  It simply validated existing rights.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hansoribrother. Show Hansoribrother's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

    The problem with money in politics is not the poeple donating money, it is the people taking it. WHat passes the sniff test now used to be called a bribe.

     

     


    It takes two to tango.  Always has, always will.  They are peddling influence and the rich are certainly buying it.

    Denying this is willful blindness.

    It's still bribery with a different name, and using the law as an umbrella doesn't change that or the corruption at hand.

     



    Yes, it takes two to tango, but only one with some honesty and integrity to stop it. 

    This problem could easily be stopped if the people that we elect to be honest servants of the people did their job. Companies would stop giving if the giving did no good. But these two entities have succeeded in creating a self-serving cycle of cronyism and a rape of the tax payer for their benefit.

    Putting all the blame on companies and whining about money in politics is fruitless and short-sighted. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to slomag's comment:

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

    The IRS is out harassing people and organizations based on their political point of view and all the lefties can think about is Citizens United ruling.

    If Bush were out using the IRS to harass Planned Parenthood, moveon.org, etc. what would they be saying??

    The truth is that the lefties are perfectly happy obstructing civil liberties - as long as they get to choose who's rights get restricted.

     

     

     

    Or ACORN?

    Planned Parenthood is not a political organization, and MoveOn.org is a PAC.  This pretty much sums up why this will never be a real scandal - tea party groups wanted very badly to commit tax fraud, and the IRS delayed them and made them fill out extra paperwork ... before they were allowed to commit tax fraud.  

     



    That's some conspiracy you got going on there.

     

    Planned Parenthood not a political organziation?  Then, what is this that I found on their NY website?

    "Political Action Group

    Political activists inform and engage voters, organize phone banks and letter-writing campaigns, and visit elected officials to support or oppose legislation."

    And, Moveon.org is not a politically active group?  I don't even need to research that one.

     

    So, if the TEA party wants to badly commit tax fraud, it might be becasuethese liberal groups already are.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    In response to slomag's comment:

     

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

     

     

    The IRS is out harassing people and organizations based on their political point of view and all the lefties can think about is Citizens United ruling.

    If Bush were out using the IRS to harass Planned Parenthood, moveon.org, etc. what would they be saying??

    The truth is that the lefties are perfectly happy obstructing civil liberties - as long as they get to choose who's rights get restricted.

     

     

     

     

     

    Or ACORN?

    Planned Parenthood is not a political organization, and MoveOn.org is a PAC.  This pretty much sums up why this will never be a real scandal - tea party groups wanted very badly to commit tax fraud, and the IRS delayed them and made them fill out extra paperwork ... before they were allowed to commit tax fraud.  

     

     



    That's some conspiracy you got going on there.

     

     

    Planned Parenthood not a political organziation?  Then, what is this that I found on their NY website?

    "Political Action Group

    Political activists inform and engage voters, organize phone banks and letter-writing campaigns, and visit elected officials to support or oppose legislation."

    And, Moveon.org is not a politically active group?  I don't even need to research that one.

     

    So, if the TEA party wants to badly commit tax fraud, it might be becasuethese liberal groups already are.



    Legit 501c4s can engage in political advocacy, but it cannot be their primary purpose.  

    Moveon.org was forced to split into two branches - the political advocacy branch is a PAC, not a 501c4.  In other words, they have to jump through hoops to get any tax-exempt status at all.  So why should the tea party groups be any different?

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:



    The master of changing the subject (you) has no authority to police threads to enforce discussion on what he wants people discuss.




    lol I started the thread.

    While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    posted at 9/19/2013 8:32 AM EDT

    • tvoter
    • Posts: 4654
    • First: 3/29/2012
    • Last: 9/19/2013

    It may be the most incriminating evidence yet.

    Last week, while the world’s eyes were fixed upon the Obama administration’s fumbled response to the Syria crisis, new documents emerged in the allegedly “phony” IRS scandal.

    These documents – emails from Lois Lerner, then Director of Exempt Organizations at the IRS – were short, but highly damaging to the IRS’s persistent (and pernicious) spin.

    The first email, a February 1, 2011, message to – among others – Obama donor and fellow IRS executive Holly Paz, proclaims: “Tea Party matter very dangerous. This could be the vehicle to go to court on the issue over whether Citizen’s United overturning the ban on corporate spending applies to tax exempt rules . . . Cincy should probably NOT have these cases – Holly please see what they have please [sic].”

    The next key email, sent on July 10, 2012 (just as the 2012 election season was truly heating up) came in response to an article forwarded to Lerner noting Democratic complaints that anonymous donors could be influencing Senate races.

    Lois Lerner’s emails are proving our case: the IRS is partisan, it’s corrupt and its leaders don’t tell the truth.

     

    Lerner’s immediate response? “Perhaps the FEC will save the day.”

    Save the day from what? Democratic losses? Constitutionally-protected free speech?

    Though short, these emails tell us three key things:

    First, Lois Lerner unquestionably misled the public when she stated in her initial, May 10, 2013, apology for IRS targeting that the scandal centered around “our line people in Cincinnati.” In reality, this was and is a Washington scandal, with senior IRS officials at the epicenter.

    Reading her May statement now, one is struck by the extent to which she blames the scandal entirely on Cincinnati personnel, repeatedly distancing herself from the decisions, except as a problem-solver. Those responsible were “they,” while those who allegedly fixed the problem were “we.”

    Second, key leaders at the IRS are highly partisan. Lerner’s May statement contains this howler: “They didn’t do this because of any political bias. They did this because they were working together.”

    I guess that statement brings new meaning to the Democrats’ admonition that government is “simply the name we give to the things we choose to do together,” but it is, ultimately, false.

    We already knew that Holly Paz, then the director of the Office of Ruling and Agreements, was a substantial donor to the Obama campaign, but now we know that Democratic complaints were of specific concern to Lois Lerner – of enough concern that she was hoping that the Federal Election Commission would “save the day.”

    But of course, she didn’t need the FEC to save the day for the Democrats. The IRS was saving the day quite effectively on its own.

    At the ACLJ, we represent 41 conservative groups in 22 states – many of them 2012 battleground states – that faced considerable delays and harassment from the IRS. Their activities were hampered, their fundraising crippled, and their attention diverted by intrusive and improper IRS questions.

    Or, put another way, as we stated in our Amended Complaint, the IRS “substantially and materially interfered with Plaintiffs’ abilities to engage in effective advocacy and other expressive activities.”

    Third, it’s deeply discouraging to read the extent of Lerner’s hostility to the First Amendment. The Citizen’s United ruling, which she so obviously disdained, significantly expanded free speech rights and further protected political speech from government control – an evident nightmare for a partisan bureaucrat like Lerner.

    The IRS, arguably the nation’s most intrusive arm of government, should not be taking positions against free speech. At worst it should be agnostic, and ideally its employees should remember their fundamental obligation: to protect the Constitution of the United States.

    From the beginning of this scandal, we at the ACLJ have been acutely aware of the IRS’s partisan bias. We provided evidence of this bias more than a year before Lerner’s false “apology” on May 10. Yet the mainstream media and many political leaders yawned.

    No one should be yawning now. Lois Lerner’s emails are proving our case. The IRS is partisan, it’s corrupt, and its leaders don’t tell the truth.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

    In response to slomag's comment:

     

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

     

     

    The IRS is out harassing people and organizations based on their political point of view and all the lefties can think about is Citizens United ruling.

    If Bush were out using the IRS to harass Planned Parenthood, moveon.org, etc. what would they be saying??

    The truth is that the lefties are perfectly happy obstructing civil liberties - as long as they get to choose who's rights get restricted.

     

     

     

     

     

    Or ACORN?

    Planned Parenthood is not a political organization, and MoveOn.org is a PAC.  This pretty much sums up why this will never be a real scandal - tea party groups wanted very badly to commit tax fraud, and the IRS delayed them and made them fill out extra paperwork ... before they were allowed to commit tax fraud.  

     

     



    Planned Parenthood, in real life, is most certainly a political organization.

     

    Glad to see that you are OK with IRS targetting political groups. Fine supporter of the constitution are you!

    Donations to MoveOn.org Civic Action, a 501(c)(4) issue advocacy organization, are used primarily for our nonpartisan civic engagement projects. Click here to contribute by check. Donations made on this page will not be used to support or oppose any federal candidates; that work is being done by MoveOn.org Civic Action's sister organization, MoveOn.org Political Action. Your financial support of MoveOn.org Civic Action makes our important work possible.

    If you are OK with the IRS going after Tea Party organizations, I'm sure you'd have no problem with some future Republican adminstration doing same with moveon.org?

    What afugging hypocrite.



    If by 'going after' you mean forcing them to split into two branches, keeping their 501c4 free of political advocacy, it's already been done.

    It might be a good idea to actually read what's on your clipboard before pasting it into your post.

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    I started the thread.


    And you want a gold star?

     




    Yes please.....

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to tvoter's comment:

     

    I do not believe it was relevent to this conversation

     



    The master of changing the subject (you) has no authority to police threads to enforce discussion on what he wants people discuss.

     



    You, saying that, is funny.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: While everyone was focused on the Syria mess...........

    In response to slomag's comment:

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

    In response to slomag's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

     

     

     

     

    The IRS is out harassing people and organizations based on their political point of view and all the lefties can think about is Citizens United ruling.

    If Bush were out using the IRS to harass Planned Parenthood, moveon.org, etc. what would they be saying??

    The truth is that the lefties are perfectly happy obstructing civil liberties - as long as they get to choose who's rights get restricted.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Or ACORN?

    Planned Parenthood is not a political organization, and MoveOn.org is a PAC.  This pretty much sums up why this will never be a real scandal - tea party groups wanted very badly to commit tax fraud, and the IRS delayed them and made them fill out extra paperwork ... before they were allowed to commit tax fraud.  

     

     

     



    Planned Parenthood, in real life, is most certainly a political organization.

     

     

    Glad to see that you are OK with IRS targetting political groups. Fine supporter of the constitution are you!

    Donations to MoveOn.org Civic Action, a 501(c)(4) issue advocacy organization, are used primarily for our nonpartisan civic engagement projects. Click here to contribute by check. Donations made on this page will not be used to support or oppose any federal candidates; that work is being done by MoveOn.org Civic Action's sister organization, MoveOn.org Political Action. Your financial support of MoveOn.org Civic Action makes our important work possible.

    If you are OK with the IRS going after Tea Party organizations, I'm sure you'd have no problem with some future Republican adminstration doing same with moveon.org?

    What afugging hypocrite.

     



    If by 'going after' you mean forcing them to split into two branches, keeping their 501c4 free of political advocacy, it's already been done.

     

    It might be a good idea to actually read what's on your clipboard before pasting it into your post.

     



    So, that's what Planned Parenthood and move on.org are doing?

    is it the left or the right side of their desks that is not political?

     
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