Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : the rest of you list is a stupid application of an extreme reduction.
    Posted by skeeter20


    Forgive me.  I got a little carried away.

    Except for the UHC part.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhichOnesPink. Show WhichOnesPink's posts

    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    "tell us what to eat."

    Has the government mandated that you eat certain foods and not others? No? There goes that one. Unless you're saying that "liberals" should not have the right to express their opinion on what is and is not healthy.


    Ah...so using your logic...has the govt mandated you can't have an abortion? No? Unless you're saying that "conservatives" should not have the right to express their opinion on being "pro-life"?

     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : Pot calling the kettle black.
    Posted by Newtster


    Just the reverse, my friend, just the reverse.  I believe in individual choice.  Social conservatives most definitely do not.  I just believe the government should assist people in having a full range of choices.  You object because you don't like to share such choices.  That probably goes back to sandbox days for you.
     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : Pro-choice on abortion is nothing of the sort.  It is merely a mechanism to soften the blow of choosing to end a life for the convenience of another.  that's not pro-choice, pro-convienience. The true choice is economic.  Let me choose to do with my money what I want to the greatest extent possible, within bounds of interfering with anyone else's freedom to choose. I know this concept of personal responsibility and personal liberty is foreign to you, as you hold a collectivist mindset.
    Posted by skeeter20


    Sure.  Whatever.  Having an abortion is the most difficult of personal decisions.  Yet you want to force people to accept your version of morality and deny them the choice to find their own path.  You are a collectivist of a different kind who believes personal liberty on such matters should be criminalized.  Your claim to be in favor of individual choice is completely fraudulent.  
     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    "A victim of collision in the open sea, nobody ever said that life was free, sank, swam, go down with the ship, but use your freedom of choice.

    Freedom of choice , is what you got. Freedom from choice , is what you want.

    Then if you got it, you don't want it. Seems to be the rule of thumb.

    Don't be tricked by what you see, you've got two ways to go.

    I'll say it again in the land of the free, use your freedom of choice."

    From the song 'Freedom of Choice' by DEVO, the guys who foretold devolution in society was coming, years before it got here.
     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : And I submit that the decision to have a child, especially in this day and age, is also very much an economic one. Therefore, both contraception and abortion are often economic as well as health decisions.
    Posted by MattyScornD


    Well, they are your decisions, and your costs, within the boundaries of what society dictates as acceptable.  You want a kid, go for it.  You don't want a kid, go to a drug store.  Either way, not for me or the government to either subsidize or force the subsidy of those decisions, that's all.

    BTW:  Do you sign off on the infanticide being pushed by some liberals?
     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : Well, that depends what our options are.  If we can cover everyone without mandates, then by all means, let's do it... ...but if we can't, and mandates are the only way to get everyone on board, then that's what it takes.  I hope it doesn't come to that, but the opposition isn't making it any easier. I'll quote a favorite pulp flick, The Untouchables , when Malone says to Ness, "Oh yeah, and THEN what are you prepared to do...?" And the answer should always be, "Whatever it takes".
    Posted by MattyScornD


    Well, we disagree, respectfully. I just don't see government doing anything good or moral by throwing the big blanket of universal coverage over everyone.  I see much better system in letting individual people take care of their own needs, perhaps subsidized by those around them, if needed.  the big exception are those who truly cannot help themselves, the mentally impaired, the severely physically disabled.  And, these conditions have to be severe. 

    Blindness, for example, not always an impediment to working and providing for yourself.  I worked with two blind men, and used to commute with another.  They got out of bed and did it, so I don't see why others cannot.  More likely they will not.
     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : Forgive me.  I got a little carried away. Except for the UHC part.
    Posted by MattyScornD



    Hah!  Enjoy your evening.
     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : Sure.  Whatever.  Having an abortion is the most difficult of personal decisions.  Yet you want to force people to accept your version of morality and deny them the choice to find their own path.  You are a collectivist of a different kind who believes personal liberty on such matters should be criminalized.  Your claim to be in favor of individual choice is completely fraudulent.  
    Posted by Reubenhop[/QUOT

    If I accept your premise that abortion is a decision made by an individual with out regards to the unborn child, then  you would be correct.

    However, we are dealing with another life in the abortion equation, the unborn child.  Who speaks for the child?

    This is the flaw in the typical liberal stance, it is completely unwilling to be bound by the science on the issue.  That unborn child is alive.  Liberals draw this artificial line in the sand:  on one side, life, on the other side, non-life.  I am not sure that that line is drawn with any real scientific basis or moral gravity, it is simply arbitrary.  Therefore, I do not think that you or anyone else has the right to eliminate that life.

    Now, we have some liberals saying we should be able to kill born children.  Couldn't see that one coming (sic).  So, now is the standard that if they can't drive a car, they are not really a living person?


     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : Republicans Hatched Idea for Obama's Health Insurance Mandate Republicans were for President Obama's requirement that Americans get health insurance before they were against it. The obligation in the new health care law is a Republican idea that's been around at least two decades. It was once trumpeted as an alternative to Bill and Hillary Clinton's failed health care overhaul in the 1990s. These days, Republicans call it government overreach. The concept of the individual health insurance mandate is considered to have originated in 1989 at the conservative Heritage Foundation. In 1993, Republicans twice introduced health care bills that contained an individual health insurance mandate. Advocates for those bills included prominent Republicans who today oppose the mandate including Orrin Hatch (R-UT), Charles Grassley (R-IA), Robert Bennett (R-UT), and Christopher Bond (R-MO). In 2007, Democrats and Republicans introduced a bi-partisan bill containing the mandate. In the early 1970s, President Richard Nixon favored such a mandate. In the 1990s, Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole and House Speaker Newt Gingrich supported a mandate. The Heritage Foundation, one of the top conservative think tanks, embraced a mandate. “Yes, in the early 1990s, we, along with other prominent conservative economists, supported the idea of such a mandate,” Robert Moffit, a Heritage scholar, wrote in an Op-Ed in The Washington Post. “It seemed the only way to solve the ‘free-rider’ problem in which individuals can, under federal law, walk into any hospital emergency room nationwide and rack up big bills at taxpayer expense,” Moffit added. In fact, “The idea of an individual mandate as an alternative to single-payer was a Republican idea,” says health economist Mark Pauly of the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School. More recently, when asked on Fox News in February 2007 about the Romney plan, Republican Sen. Jim DeMint, chairman of the Senate Steering Committee and a favorite of the tea party movement, said, “Well, that’s something that I think we should do for the whole country.” Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/27/republicans-hatched-idea-obamas-health-insurance-mandate/#ixzz1oGpTNZkl http://healthcarereform.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004182
    Posted by airborne-rgr


    I'm glad that the republicans have come around to the proper side of this argument, at last.  now, if we can get the democrats to do the same.
     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? :
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : Sure.  Whatever.  Having an abortion is the most difficult of personal decisions.  Yet you want to force people to accept your version of morality and deny them the choice to find their own path.  You are a collectivist of a different kind who believes personal liberty on such matters should be criminalized.  Your claim to be in favor of individual choice is completely fraudulent.   Posted by Reubenhop[/QUOT If I accept your premise that abortion is a decision made by an individual with out regards to the unborn child, then  you would be correct. However, we are dealing with another life in the abortion equation, the unborn child.  Who speaks for the child? This is the flaw in the typical liberal stance, it is completely unwilling to be bound by the science on the issue.  That unborn child is alive.  Liberals draw this artificial line in the sand:  on one side, life, on the other side, non-life.  I am not sure that that line is drawn with any real scientific basis or moral gravity, it is simply arbitrary.  Therefore, I do not think that you or anyone else has the right to eliminate that life. Now, we have some liberals saying we should be able to kill born children.  Couldn't see that one coming (sic).  So, now is the standard that if they can't drive a car, they are not really a living person?
    Posted by skeeter20


    Your flaw is that you do not recognize that there is no consensus on this matter and that reasonable people come to different conclusions. You are "right" and you don't care about others. You will force others to acdcept your view and have no choice at all.  It is arrogance personified and makes your talk of individual choice a complete fraud.
     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : Your flaw is that you do not recognize that there is no consensus on this matter and that reasonable people come to different conclusions. You are "right" and you don't care about others. You will force others to acdcept your view and have no choice at all.  It is arrogance personified and makes your talk of individual choice a complete fraud.
    Posted by Reubenhop



    I don't judge the properness of my ideas by the consensus of others.  I take their opinions and consider them.  The truth, however, is hardly ever found in consensus, but usually found in a well reasoned argument, which you have the skill to do, but you cling bitterly to the wrong ideology.

    This is what brings you to such ideological red herrings, like forcing people to accept my point of view, while you insist that forcing people to be subservient to the federal and local governments is good for them, through ideas like free contraception.

    Come on, you are smarter than that.  Take a step back from your argument and really think about where we are going based on your ideology.  do you really want that?  Why?
     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : I don't judge the properness of my ideas by the consensus of others.  I take their opinions and consider them.  The truth, however, is hardly ever found in consensus, but usually found in a well reasoned argument, which you have the skill to do, but you cling bitterly to the wrong ideology. This is what brings you to such ideological red herrings, like forcing people to accept my point of view, while you insist that forcing people to be subservient to the federal and local governments is good for them, through ideas like free contraception. Come on, you are smarter than that.  Take a step back from your argument and really think about where we are going based on your ideology.  do you really want that?  Why?
    Posted by skeeter20


    There is obviously no consensus on this matter, but you don't much care: your way must win.  "Wrong ideology" or not: your views indicate there should be no choice on the matter, mine accept there should be. Take a step away from your argument and see that you want to define rights for others and deny choice. You don't seek to convince, you seek to force compliance through government action.  You are the enemy that you are complaining of in this post. Why is the right afraid to allow people to choose? 
     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : There is obviously no consensus on this matter, but you don't much care: your way must win.  "Wrong ideology" or not: your views indicate there should be no choice on the matter, mine accept there should be. Take a step away from your argument and see that you want to define rights for others and deny choice. You don't seek to convince, you seek to force compliance through government action.  You are the enemy that you are complaining of in this post. Why is the right afraid to allow people to choose? 
    Posted by Reubenhop


    Sure there is a consensus: that the unborn child, fetus, whatever you want to call it, is alive, and will be born alive, stipulating illnesses of a variety.

    Are you denying that consensus?  that's pure science.  I'm not forcing anything, other than that the government protect it's citizens, current and future.  That's not forcing compliance any more than the government forces compliance that keeps you from killing you neighbor and taking his land.

    The primary responsibility is to secure us from external and internal threats.  Abortion is a threat to the unborn child.
     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from rockyracoon. Show rockyracoon's posts

    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    The right wants to protect your choices by allowing your employer to deny choices in your INSURANCE coverage based on whatever they feel like basing it on. A nurse that works for a hospital run by the Catholic Church is denied the choice of having some very basic medical services covered because of the beliefs of a bunch of old men. How does this enhance or protect her choices? I know that some of you will say that she doesn't have to work there but again I ask, How does this enhance or protect her choices?
     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : Well, we disagree, respectfully. I just don't see government doing anything good or moral by throwing the big blanket of universal coverage over everyone.  I see much better system in letting individual people take care of their own needs, perhaps subsidized by those around them, if needed.  the big exception are those who truly cannot help themselves, the mentally impaired, the severely physically disabled.  And, these conditions have to be severe.  Blindness, for example, not always an impediment to working and providing for yourself.  I worked with two blind men, and used to commute with another.  They got out of bed and did it, so I don't see why others cannot.  More likely they will not.
    Posted by skeeter20


    A quick look at medicaid expenses shows that the vast majority of those funds goes to precisely these groups - "those who truly cannot help themselves".  (How do you define "severe"?)

    But if you want to start splitting hairs over how well people are able to sufficiently manage their health care expenses, then there are many, many more people who fall into that category, especially considering the (ever rising)costs of those services.  And the fact remains that medical bills are one of the most significant causes of people and families being forced into personal bankruptcies.

    Your view would stipulate - even if NO legislative action was taken - that even basic medical services would be available only as a luxury to those who could afford them.  And, in some ways, this is already true.

    Sorry, but I find that unacceptable given the relative advancement of our society...when we know what the problem is and how to combat it yet take no commensurate action in the affirmative.
     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    The right wants to protect your choices by allowing your employer to deny choices in your INSURANCE coverage based on whatever they feel like basing it on. A nurse that works for a hospital run by the Catholic Church is denied the choice of having some very basic medical services covered because of the beliefs of a bunch of old men. How does this enhance or protect her choices? I know that some of you will say that she doesn't have to work there but again I ask, How does this enhance or protect her choices?
    Posted by rockyracoon


    Except that this issue is the exception not the rule. Other than Catholic Church as an employer can you name other employers who have denied certain coverages based on a belief system?
    The Left is acting as if this is something widespread....it is not.
     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : yeah - IT'S a JOKE And no, schooling is not a right. It's a privelege.
    Posted by Newtster


    I love that a person who thinks schooling is a right not a privilege doesn't know how to spell the word privilege. 

     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : Sure there is a consensus: that the unborn child, fetus, whatever you want to call it, is alive, and will be born alive, stipulating illnesses of a variety. Are you denying that consensus?  that's pure science.  I'm not forcing anything, other than that the government protect it's citizens, current and future.  That's not forcing compliance any more than the government forces compliance that keeps you from killing you neighbor and taking his land. The primary responsibility is to secure us from external and internal threats.  Abortion is a threat to the unborn child.
    Posted by skeeter20


    Science does not answer the question we have here. Possible life is not the same as viable life. A fetus and a human are different things.  Human rights are what we are talking about. There is no such thing as a "future citizen" that the government needs to protect. And in any event you are just repeating your argument: you are right, everyone else is wrong, and you will deny people  choice by governmental action. You do exactly what you complain about in the Left's program. It is blatant hypocrisy.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from StalkingButler. Show StalkingButler's posts

    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    A fetus and a human are different things.

    Then what the heck is it, a sasquatch? I'm guessing that if you did a DNA test on a human fetus you'd find that, genetically speaking, the fetus was fully human.

    Science!

     
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    Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?

    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose?:
    In Response to Re: Why is the left so afraid to allow people to choose? : yeah - IT'S a JOKE And no, schooling is not a right. It's a privelege. Kids get expelled from school. Do we revoke people's right to free speech? Do you recall the word "inalienable" from the Declaration of Independence? Does it mean anything to you? How can you have a right that depends on the labor of others? What if there are no doctors or teachers or any that are any good, where are your rights then? What if you cannot afford to pay for it, does that mean someone should work for nothing or that you have the rght to take someone else's money to pay for it? The concept of having a right to healthcare, education or housing is absurd. It is totally naive, idiotic. As I recall you are a lawyer??  I must be mistaken.
    Posted by Newtster


    So when we send a criminal to life without parole is his right to liberty really inalienable? How about when we execute one: pretty much alienated his right to life.  This right thing is pretty darn flexible given differing circumstances. And all our states guarantee a public education for children and have done so for almost 200 years. But no rights there... Your rigid mindset keeps you from seeing actual reality. 
     
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