This post has been removed.

This post has been removed.

In response to FortySixAnd2's comment:

OK...so if you can extrapolate that out to a representative sample of the population, you can get an idea of a magnitude of the problem.  (Note: we also live longer, on average, now and metabolism rates vary wildly from child to adult)

As far as a fat tax, the insurance market will start - if it hasn't already - levying surcharges against unhealthy behaviors.  This would have happened without Obamacare; the difference now is that the law states that insurance plans cannot discriminate or deny coverage due to pre-existing conditions.

Since it's impossible to issue a mandate telling people what they can and can't eat or how much to exercise, the change has to come at the pain points -- health care services and the insurance required to affordably access those services.

And even then, every person is different and will require individualized treatment from their doctor...hence the need to get as many people as possible into some kind of preventive care ASAP.

 

 

This post has been removed.

In response to airborne-rgr's comment:

 

In response to skeeter20's comment:

 

 

 

In response to airborne-rgr's comment:

 

In response to skeeter20's comment:

 

Budgets mean nothing.  they are cutting the growth in spending, not cutting spending.  Look it up.

spending is UP in Europe.  Examples:

UK spending is up:

Government Spending in the United Kingdom increased to 84685 GBP Million in the third quarter of 2012 from 84021 GBP Million in the second quarter of 2012. .

France:  Spending is up:

Government Spending in France increased to 39239 EUR Million in the fourth quarter of 2012 from 39078 EUR Million in the third quarter of 2012. Government Spending in France is reported by the INSEE, France. Historically, from 1950 until 2012, France Government Spending averaged 23856.97 EUR Million reaching an all time high of 39420 EUR Million in May of 2010

Italy:  Spending is flat, 788 to 789 (actually up slightly).

 

Trying to grow spending 10%, then cutting that 10% is not a cut in spending, it is a cut in growth.

 

Bottom line, there is NO austerity in Europe in general, though there are a couple exceptions.

 

 

 

You are constantly showing how ignorant you are on just about any subject but economics in particular.

Hey spanky, countries like UK have BUDGETS that last a year.

That means when spending goes up or down from quarter to quarter that doesn't mean jackshit about whether the country's budgets are up or down. That spending is already accounted for and timing within the year is arbitrary.

OECD.Stat includes data and metadata for OECD countries:

Government final expenditure in US dollars

             2010          2011

UK        508.1        493.6

Italy     409.6        406.3

Spain   313.7        310.1

Port        58.7          54.1

All those countries CUT spending are are now in a recession.

 

Countries that didn't cut spending, like Germany, Sweden, Australia are NOT in a recession.

http://www.oecd.org/statistics/

 

Your numbers are wrong.  Maybe wherever you got them did not convert properly, taking into account important factors like inflation and real value, ie, "value at the time".

 

Spending is up @3.9% across Europe.  In the countries we are generally talking about, spending is up 1.8%.  Country by country:

 

                       2010              2011             2012

France             1071               1096             1118

UK                   805                858               851

Greece             125                114               108

Spain               485               480                468

Portugal          84                   89                  84

Ireland            78                 104                  76

Italy                788              784                   789

 

Check out a neat artricle on what is going on here:

http://cafehayek.com/2012/05/the-slashed-spending-of-european-governments.html

Look at the chart near the bottom of the articel that shows you, clearly, that there is no austerity going on in Europe. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey spanky, it helps to do your own homework and not rely on the echo chamber rhetoric.

From YOUR article:

(If you want to play with the numbers yourself, go here, which will give you borrowing and lending. Change the pull down menu that says borrowing and lending to government expenditures. To get the actual amounts rather than percentage of GDP, hit the â€ÂÂÂœSelect Data” tab at the top and you’ll see the choices.)

 

Well guess what, I did go here and used their tables.

Here are the results of Total General Gov't Expenditure in Euro's:

                            2008               2009             2010             2011
UK                    862,432.8      867,155.4      860,997.4     848,124.2
Greece             117,992.0      124,669.0      114,302.0    108,003.0
Spain               450,948.0      484,759.0      485,467.0     480,111.0
Ireland             77,008.7         78,499.8       103,426.6      76,536.1
Portugal           77,055.3          83,842.3         88,502.4      84,373.8

    http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/submitViewTableAction.do

In the years between 2008 and 2010, immediately after the global collapse, the countries raised spending and were NOT in a recession.

Between 2010 and 2011 all of the same countries CUT spending  and ALL are now in a double dip recession.

 

Ya can't argue facts.

 

 

And this little gem is so misleading, it proves my point:

Spending is up @3.9% across Europe.  In the countries we are generally talking about, spending is up 1.8%.

Spending averages across all countries is a useless figure.

The INDIVIDUAL countries where spending is up are NOT in a recession.

The INDIVIDUAL countries where spending is down ARE in a recession.

 

Not true, and you left out 2012 numbers, I can only assume because they counter your argument.  Look at the GD chart in the article.  That's about as clear an indication that spending is not down that you are going to get. Maybe your numbers don't properly count for inflation or exhange rates, I don't know.

 

Look, I don't know how I can better explain this.  Maybe you are missing some facts, maybe you want this liberal false narrative to be true, but it is not.

Some thiings to consider:Budget is not the only determinant of whether an economy is growing or declining.  Other significant factors include impact of pensions, trade unions, types of industries, regulation, and a whole bunch more.

Your overly pedantic (and incorrect) insistence that when spending goes down, countries go into recession is just plain false.  I have given you enough data to figure that out, yet you resist.  I don't know what else I can do to tryto educate you in this regard. Consider this:  From an economics persepctive, long term deficit spending doesn't eliminate the recssison, it simply papers it over with future GDP.  think about it.  there is no free 

I am not trying to knock you down, I am just trying to open your eyes.  I suggest droppng the ideology and try to understand the facts I have presented.

 

In response to FortySixAnd2's comment:

I've explained this before.  It already exists.  Through employer sponsored plans, the insurance company imposes a surcharge, say for smoking.  The insured signs off to say they are tobacco-free for six months prior to enrollment.  In theory, a person could still smoke and not get caught.  But if they ARE caught, it could be grounds for termination and/or suspension of the policy.

And if the insurance company doesn't know for sure, they can certainly get the treating physician to tell them.

 

 

This post has been removed.

This post has been removed.

Health care policy for liberals is like all liberal policies .

1) Government intervention on a small scale fails, makes the problems worse. Subsidizes failure.

2) Citing the failure, liberals lobby for more governmment intervention to fix the failures.

3) Rinse and repeat.

ObamaCare's massive failures will lead to a "crisis" , and a good place for the Left: single-payer, socialized medicine.

 

 

In response to ComingLiberalCrackup's comment:

I suggest you read the article and then come up with solutions to the obvious problems related there.  It is far too easy to rail against others while coming up with nothing of your own.  Be honest: you just don't care.

In response to FortySixAnd2's comment:

My employer's group plan, for one.

Thankfully, I quit smoking long ago.

There's no way of knowing how strict the compliance policy is, but the disincentive is there.  

That you never saw it happen does not mean that it doesn't happen now.

 

Now, re: a "fat tax", which is what we were talking about, there is no conceptual difference.  So, can we assume you're ok with this "smoker tax", too...?

The question becomes how much control we allow the insurers to exert over our lifestyles and whether premiums should reflect that...even within the cold comfort of an employer-sponsored plan.

 

 

This post has been removed.

In response to ComingLiberalCrackup's comment:

It's not the government's fault that people can't save enough money on their own to cover medical expenses and thus look to the private insurance market to bridge the gap.

However, without Medicare and the VA subsidizing the health care field with sheer volume of purchases, health care costs would be even higher than they are now.

 

Repetition For The Dense #1,063: We already HAVE so-called "socialized medicine".  And it's recipients largely couldn't be happier with it.

 

 

 

In response to Reubenhop's comment:

 

In response to ComingLiberalCrackup's comment:

 

Health care policy for liberals is like all liberal policies .

1) Government intervention on a small scale fails, makes the problems worse. Subsidizes failure.

2) Citing the failure, liberals lobby for more governmment intervention to fix the failures.

3) Rinse and repeat.

ObamaCare's massive failures will lead to a "crisis" , and a good place for the Left: single-payer, socialized medicine.

 

 

 

I suggest you read the article and then come up with solutions to the obvious problems related there.  It is far too easy to rail against others while coming up with nothing of your own.  Be honest: you just don't care.

 

 

False choice.  How can we come up with solutions to a government created problem?  Particularly when the only solutions you will listen to are solutions that involve government?

 

Kinda like the "conversation on gun control".  In reality, it means my mind is made up, so you (meaning me and crackup) shut up.

In response to FortySixAnd2's comment:

Well, there you go, then.  So there should be no problem with a "fat tax", much less the govt levying the same type of surcharge on medicare and medicaid recips.

And it's worth mentioning certain politicians who wish to implement a "fat tax" of sorts on sales of tonic and candy.

Why stop there?  What about giant burgers, fried chicken and cheescake?

Where does it end?  (other than the morgue)

 

In response to skeeter20's comment:

You're suggesting the spiraling costs of health care are a "govt-created problem"?  Really?!?

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

 

In response to MattyScornD's comment:

It ends in a liberal uptia:  A social fascist nation full of people with pasted on smiles,all dressed in gray.

In response to skeeter20's comment:

You're not paying attention.  The smoker surcharge is a private sector creation.  Cost mitigation of insuring employees.

 

 

 

This post has been removed.

This post has been removed.

In response to ComingLiberalCrackup's comment:

The Euro model was financed by the American taxpayer financed Marshall Plan. Israel's socialist system is financed by American taxpayers today. Comrade, indeed ......

In response to skeeter20's comment:

Read the article: it is not a government based problem.  Getting charged by a private provider an exorbitant amount for basic healthcare that is much cheaper elsewhere has NOTHING to do with government and EVERYTHING to do with greed.  And again you just don't care...

In response to skeeter20's comment:

You spew nonsense.  

Go make your rants on the street corner with your poster of Obama with a Hitler moustache.  That's where you belong.

In response to MattyScornD's comment:

Wow, this coming from a self-admitted whiny-liberal!

I thought you folks didn't believe in personal responsibility, it's always someone elses fault!

Or in Ruby's case, just blame whitey!

BTW, love the Hitler reference, it's so you!

In response to doozy-day's comment:

It wasn't my reference, chumly, but there you go being all wrong n' stuff again....