Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from KittyDuke. Show KittyDuke's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    I got my info from the EPA.  Dubious source, I know....

    considering who (theoretically) is the leader of the (temporarily) free world..
    yes very dubious.
     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rushfan2112. Show Rushfan2112's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated... : Only two states require companies to disclose the composition of their fracking fluid, WY and PA, and even then they can withold elements due to proprietary interest. The list of components from the PA DEP lists Ethylbenzene, one of the primary and most hazardous of BTEX (VOC's), as an ingredient. http://assets.bizjournals.com/cms_media/pittsburgh/datacenter/DEP_Frac_Chemical_List_6-30-10.pdf A voluntary list for western states contains 'Petroleum Distillate', 'Hydrotreated Light Petroleum Distillate' and  'Naphthalene'. BTEX are derivatives of petroleum products. http://fracfocus.org/chemical-use/what-chemicals-are-used So I have no idea wher your getting your info, unless you're relying on squeeter...which would explain alot.
    Posted by airborne-rgr[/QUOTE]

    What "a lot" would that explain?

    Actually that information came from PA.  And from an occupational perspective, since benzene is a CA, they kinda have to report on the MSDS the presence unless it is less than 0.1%.  Got it?  It can get a little fuzzy sometimes.  I missed Ethyl benzene, my mistake.  But the same mechanistic theory applies to go from that to benzene, except it's a bit more stable than benzoic acid.  That said, skeeters point about benzene still holds.  There are 4 cpds within the "BTEX class", benzene is the benchmark by which the rest are compared to.  If you want to discuss chemistry with me I'm happy to do so, we might even learn something new.
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rushfan2112. Show Rushfan2112's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated... : Squeeters post was on AIR TOXICS and has no bearing on the composition of fracking fluids or their appearance in the monitoring wells. The fact that ethyl benzene is reported on the PA fracking fluid components list means that ethyl benzene (BTEX) is in the fluid. Period. The fact that petroleum distillates, the main source for BTEX, are self-reported by the industry in their fluids means that there is an almost absolute assumption that BTEX will be found in the fracking fluid. Period.
    Posted by airborne-rgr[/QUOTE]

    His point was that benzene is not used in the cracking process.  Ethylbenzene is NOT benzene, and ethylbenzene is NOT BTEX.  Okay?  When you are talking about BTEX, you are referring to a group of compounds that include benzene, toluene, ethyl benzene and xylene.  That the MSDSs not include benzene supports his position that benzene is not used.  Okay?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rushfan2112. Show Rushfan2112's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated... : What does the MSDS have to do with this thread? Every fracking site has a MSDS of the components of the fracking fluid. Have you read any of these on-site MSDS's? Neither have I, so the only way to get a components list is use either the PA list or the national fluids list. On both lists, benzene (or an affiliated BTEX chemical) is either listed explicitly or it's known originating compound, petroleum distillates. It's not rocket, or chemical science. BTEX is a component of fracking fluid. I would also make a bet that BTEX appears on the drill-site MSDS's.
    Posted by airborne-rgr[/QUOTE]

    So you're assuming that I've never seen an MSDS?  That's too bad, as I said earlier we could probably learn something new.  In the past I did some consulting for and within the petroleum industry, and as a consultant I saw quite a few things both on paper and in person.  But by all means go ahead and continue to make broad baseless assumptions.

    Again if you want to discuss chemistry with me I'm happy to do so.
     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated... : Listen, in order to make a logical argument you have to base it on available knowledge. You can't just state some wild opinion, based on some other wingnut opinion and be taken seriously. squeeter stated some opinion about bezene and you just parroted it with absolutely no freakin proof. It's absurd. What freakin MSDS are you talking about that doesn't include benzene? What MSDS for the petroleum industry wouldn't include a BTEX agent? And since when is 'ethyl benzene' not a BTEX? Here's typical MSDS's for crude oil. It lists EVERY BTEX component. http://www.elpaso.com/msds/A0017-Crude%20Oil.pdf http://www.martinmarietta.com/Products/MSDS-CrudeOil.pdf http://www.marathonpipeline.com/msds/pdf/Crude/0110MAR019.pdf
    Posted by airborne-rgr[/QUOTE]

    Look, how about getting some proof?  Even the EPA isn't at that step.  You may be right, but to the extent us keyboard warriors and chemists can indicate, the case by the EPA has not be made...yet.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rushfan2112. Show Rushfan2112's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated... : Geepers, you may know chemistry but reading comprehension is not a strong point. I specifically stated the MDSD's FOR THE FRACKING WELLS!!! So you've seen the MSDS for the fracking wells at the start of this post? Just because you've done 'some' consulting and seen 'some' papers does not mean YOU can generalize about all the fracking wells, especially those in this thread. But I guess your generalizations are more substantive...
    Posted by airborne-rgr[/QUOTE]

    "The fact that ethyl benzene is reported on the PA fracking fluid components list means that ethyl benzene (BTEX) is in the fluid. Period."

    These are your words.  When you say ethylbenzene (BTEX), that tells the reader that what you're putting in parentheses means the previous word or phrase.  my reading comprehension skills are just fine thank you.  Your writing skills are terrible or you don't understand what you're writing.


     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rushfan2112. Show Rushfan2112's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated... : What the freak are you talking about??? BTEX - "BTEX is the term used for benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene , and xylene-volatile aromatic compounds typically found in petroleum product, such as gasoline and diesel fuel." - Environmental Protection Agency, 2010 Other names for ethyl benzene include, EB, ethylbenzol, phenylethane and ethylbenzene . What freakin MSDS doesn't include benzene? If I run a search on an MSDS it will return hundreds of 'benzenes'.
    Posted by airborne-rgr[/QUOTE]

    That's right I'm glad you looked that up.  BTEX, if you read and understood my previous post, is an acronym for 4 compounds that include benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene and xylene.  BTEX does not mean ethyl benzene in and of itself.  If you want to get real technical about it, there really is only one name of the compound.  And that's what IUPAC recognizes, which is ethylbenzene. 

    and the "freaking" MSDSs that don't include benzene are the MSDS for the fluids used in fracking, else it would have been reported.  Try to stay focused here, okay.  I'm happy to give chemistry lessons along the way, try to remember the point.  Skeeter said that benzene wasn't used in fracking, and you blasted him for it.  Well Skeeter has a point and that's supported by what's not reported in the MSDS's, namely benzene.  Are you following me so far?  Your comment was yes there it is, ethyl benzene (BTEX).  Well, you're wrong.  (1) ethylbenzene is not "BTEX".  (2)  ethylbenzene is not benzene.  I'm really not sure how that can be confusing.  Why is there benzene detected?  I pointed out 2 possible mechanistic pathways that could result in benzene.  okay?  I hope that helps.

    Oh, and yes as a consultant I've been able to see some of these documents.  I don't recall seeing benzene listed and it would have been a red flag for me because of the nature of the work that I was doing.  Have a nice evening.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rushfan2112. Show Rushfan2112's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated... : So you know what ethyl benzene is and you know what BTEX is and you couldn't make the obvious leap that I was referring to one specific component of BTEX? 
    Posted by airborne-rgr[/QUOTE]

    Language means something.  Sorry.  I know what you were trying to say to make a point, but the point (and the approach) was wrong.
     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rushfan2112. Show Rushfan2112's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...:
    [QUOTE]Holy. Flaming. Crap. This really isn't difficult. Skeeter: There was no evidence of benzene in the fracking fluid. 12AM: There was "BTEX" and ethylbenzene Rushfan: BTEX = four things, one of which is benzene. Also, Ethylbenze does not equal benzene. 12: But ethylbenze is a BTEX! Rushfan: I get that. See my last comment. 12: hahaha you're so stupid. WhatDoYouWantNow:  PLEASE JUST SHUT UP NOW
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow[/QUOTE]

    No it's not difficult.  Skeeter's point was no benzene.  12am says yes, there it is...ethylbenzene.  RUSH:  That is not benzene.  WDYWN:  Shut up already.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rushfan2112. Show Rushfan2112's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated... : One more time... WHAT "MSDS for the fluids used in fracking" ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???!!!
    Posted by airborne-rgr[/QUOTE]

    and the "freaking" MSDSs that don't include benzene are the MSDS for the fluids used in fracking, else it would have been reported. 

    What part of that do you not understand?  I'm sorry that I didn't post a document.  Geesh, the commonwealth of PA did a lot of really good leg work and posted the components of the frack fluid as listed on the MSDS they compiled, and THEY DO NOT REPORT BENZENE.  That is CONSISTENT WITH MY EXPERIENCE.  The F-ng frack fluid does not have f-n benzene it.  This is not that hard to understand.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    Read the Investors Business Daily today.  there is an editorial with some new facts on this charge from the epa.  Iin summary, the chemicals were found in test wells drilled by the EPA, and the pollutants were likely caused by the drilling itself.  the town's water supplies were tested, and contaminant levels were within safe levels, and significantly lower than the test wells.

    Opening statement:

    After admitting there's no documented evidence of groundwater contamination due to a technique used to extract oil and gas from shale, the EPA tries to manufacture a crisis in Wyoming.

    Sounds like the EPA is backtracking on this fast.

    http://news.investors.com/Article/594555/201112121837/epa-tests-dont-show-fracking-unsafe.htm
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rushfan2112. Show Rushfan2112's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to Rushfan2112's comment:

    In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...:

     

    Detection of high concentrations of benzene, xylenes, gasoline range organics, diesel range organics, and total purgeable hydrocarbons in ground water samples from shallow monitoring wells near pits indicates that pits are a source of shallow ground water contamination in the area of investigation. When considered separately, pits represent potential source terms for localized ground water plumes of unknown extent. When considered as whole they represent potential broader contamination of shallow ground water. A number of stock and domestic wells in the area of investigation are fairly shallow (e.g., < 30 meters below ground surface) representing potential receptor pathways. Benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, and xylenes (BTEX) were detected in MW02 at concentrations of 246, 617, 67, and 750 micrograms per liter, respectively. Trimethylbenzenes were detected in MW02 at 105 micrograms per liter. Gasoline range organics were detected in MW01 and MW02 at 592 and 3710 micrograms per liter. Diesel range organics were detected in MW01 and MW02 at 924 and 4050 micrograms per liter, respectively. Aromatic solvent (typically BTEX mixture) was used in a breaker. Diesel oil (mixture of saturated and aromatic hydrocarbons including naphthalenes and alkylbenzenes) was used in a guar polymer slurry/liquid gel concentrate and in a solvent. Petroleum raffinates (mixture of paraffinic, cycloparaffinic, olefinic, and aromatic hydrocarbons) were used in a breaker. Heavy aromatic petroleum naphtha (mixture of paraffinic, cycloparaffinic and aromatic hydrocarbons) was used in surfactants and in a solvent. Toluene and xylene were used in flow enhancers and a breaker. Here's the EPA report: http://www.epa.gov/region8/superfund/wy/pavillion/EPA_ReportOnPavillion_Dec-8-2011.pdf
    Posted by airborne-rgr



    This is useful.  My only complaint was with the newspaper article not providing specifics.




     



    I'm sure you have a point, but since you didn't say anything I don't know what is.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rushfan2112. Show Rushfan2112's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to Rushfan2112's comment:

     

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    In response to Rushfan2112's comment:

    In Response to Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...:

     

    Detection of high concentrations of benzene, xylenes, gasoline range organics, diesel range organics, and total purgeable hydrocarbons in ground water samples from shallow monitoring wells near pits indicates that pits are a source of shallow ground water contamination in the area of investigation. When considered separately, pits represent potential source terms for localized ground water plumes of unknown extent. When considered as whole they represent potential broader contamination of shallow ground water. A number of stock and domestic wells in the area of investigation are fairly shallow (e.g., < 30 meters below ground surface) representing potential receptor pathways. Benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, and xylenes (BTEX) were detected in MW02 at concentrations of 246, 617, 67, and 750 micrograms per liter, respectively. Trimethylbenzenes were detected in MW02 at 105 micrograms per liter. Gasoline range organics were detected in MW01 and MW02 at 592 and 3710 micrograms per liter. Diesel range organics were detected in MW01 and MW02 at 924 and 4050 micrograms per liter, respectively. Aromatic solvent (typically BTEX mixture) was used in a breaker. Diesel oil (mixture of saturated and aromatic hydrocarbons including naphthalenes and alkylbenzenes) was used in a guar polymer slurry/liquid gel concentrate and in a solvent. Petroleum raffinates (mixture of paraffinic, cycloparaffinic, olefinic, and aromatic hydrocarbons) were used in a breaker. Heavy aromatic petroleum naphtha (mixture of paraffinic, cycloparaffinic and aromatic hydrocarbons) was used in surfactants and in a solvent. Toluene and xylene were used in flow enhancers and a breaker. Here's the EPA report: http://www.epa.gov/region8/superfund/wy/pavillion/EPA_ReportOnPavillion_Dec-8-2011.pdf
    Posted by airborne-rgr



    This is useful.  My only complaint was with the newspaper article not providing specifics.




     

     



    I'm sure you have a point, but since you didn't say anything I don't know what is.

     

     




     

    I wanted to bump the thread up so that the articles you and airborne located would be here.



    Got it.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Yep, drill, baby drill. To heck with the groundwater pollution. Clean, safe water is overrated...

    No offense...

    ...but "Drill Baby Drill" is ideological sloganeering of the worst kind and deserves every bit of mockery it gets.

    And considering its source, the lucid right should put it to rest for good and for their own sake.

     

     

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