Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ComingLiberalCrackup. Show ComingLiberalCrackup's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

    In response to ComingLiberalCrackup's comment:

     

     

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

     

    Big gov't is inept... except when you agree with it... then it is infallible.

     Yep, no cognitive dissonance there....

     



    Our government is inept! Proof is that the Marathon bombers were allowed in the country as supposed political refugees, immediately got 100K in welfare, and despite intelligence from the Russians, were able to plan and commit terror. Releasing the Gitmo prisoners would be inept and dangerous to Americans. The primary role of government is to protect us from our enemies.                                                                                                

     

     

     

    Yes, because we now have 'Minority Report' capability and can tell when an 8 yr old and a 15 year old will become terrorists a decade in advance.

    Too bad we didn't have this capability when Bush was in office, we could've saved 3000 civilians, 4500 soldiers and a few trillion dollars in unnecessary wars.

     

    And of course thanks for proving my point.

    Gov't is inept....except when you just know it isn't... then it's infallible.



    The issue is not predicting the children becoming terrorists.

    Our inept government allowed this family into the US and immediately on welfare for "political asylum". This meant that the applicants were "likely to be persecuted (i.e. seriously harmed or killed) if forced to return home".

     

    Yet the family travelled back to their homeland continuously, and of course the parents are now there. Doesnt sound like persecution, does it? Our immigration system is a joke.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from StalkingButler. Show StalkingButler's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    So, are we or are we not going to put these torturing criminals on trial? Anyone? Beuler?

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ComingLiberalCrackup. Show ComingLiberalCrackup's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    it gets back to this:  Gitmo works.



    So does execution. If you're going to be a pure utilitarian, you might as well advocate we turn the entire Middle East into a glass plain. Just space 50 megaton blasts roughly 40 miles apart and carpet bomb the place. Sure, millions of innocent people will die, but hey, it would "work".

     

    Another one of skeetards arguments leading straight to evil and nonsense. Surprise surprise.


    Not very self aware, are we?
    Execution by drone of a suspect (and his family, and anyone unlucky enough to be in the vicinity)  IS the Obama policy. Rather than capture alive.

    Drones carpet bomb and turn an area into a glass plain. Innocent people die.

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from StalkingButler. Show StalkingButler's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    Obama signed an executive order prohibiting torture a few months after he was sworn into office. Do you have evidence that torture took place after that time?

    What I'm saying is that torture has been illegal in the US for much longer than Obama has been president. Surely there is no statute of limitations here or, if so, these events took place recently enough so that it wouldn't matter.

    So, If the allegations being made by Mr. Slahi are true, and it seems that several posters here assuming that, why then is the Obama administration not bringing these criminals to trial?

     

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:



    Whether he has the stones or not, he must do it, and soon.  I could understand other matters taking priority - financial crisis, ending the Iraq War, etc. - but in his second term, he has no excuse. 

    This place is an ungodly stain upon the nation's integrity and our whole notion of the rule of law.  That it was also one of the most effective jihadist recruitment tools in the past 10 years bears repeating.

    Now, it's just a f___ing embarrassment.  And since I voted for him, I'll share in the shame until it's closed.  And if he doesn't do it, but his hypothetical gop successor does, then I'll salute he/she instead.

    Such an ugly, cowardly, cruel place.... 




    It's not JUST Gitmo!

    According to UN investigations in 2010 there are more than 27,000 prisoners held by the U.S. in more than 100 secret prisons around the world and on 17 ships as floating prisons. These are almost entirely Muslim prisoners.

    Khalid Sheikh Mohammed one of the 5 now on trial at Guantanamo was subjected to water board torture 183 times. He wore a camouflaged vest to court to make the point that he was once part of the U.S. armed and paid mujahideen force in Afghanistan in 1980s and U.S. proxy army in Bosnia in 1990s. The U.S. can be expected to treat its proxy army in Syria and Libya in the same way.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/u-s-secret-prisons-and-the-guantanamo-trials-systematic-torture/5321172

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    KABUL, Afghanistan — The CIA's infamous secret network of "black site" interrogation centers is gone. But suspected terrorists in Afghanistan are being held and interrogated for weeks at temporary sites, including one run by the elite special operations forces at Bagram Air Base, according to U.S. officials who revealed details of the detention network to The Associated Press.

    The Pentagon has previously denied operating secret jails in Afghanistan, although human rights groups and former detainees have described the facilities. U.S. military and other government officials confirmed that the detention centers exist but described them as temporary holding pens whose primary purpose is to gather intelligence.

    The Pentagon also has said that detainees only stay in temporary detention sites for 14 days, unless they are extended under extraordinary circumstances. But U.S. officials told the AP that detainees can be held at the temporary jails for up to nine weeks, depending on the value of information they produce. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the program is classified.

    The most secretive of roughly 20 temporary sites is run by the military's elite counterterrorism unit, the Joint Special Operations Command, at Bagram Air Base. Working together with CIA and other intelligence officers at the site, JSOC questions high-value targets, the detainees suspected of top roles in the Taliban, al-Qaida or other militant groups.

    The site's location, a short drive from a well-known public detention center, has been alleged for more than a year.

    The secrecy under which the U.S. runs that jail and about 20 others is noteworthy because of President Barack Obama's criticism of the old network of secret CIA prisons where interrogators sometimes used the harshest available methods, including the simulated drowning known as waterboarding.

     

     

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/08/afghanistan-secret-prison_n_846545.html

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    I do not want my government disappearing people forever on accusations it never bothers to support.



    Newsflash!!

    YOUR government has been doing that for centuries and continues today!

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from StalkingButler. Show StalkingButler's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    So who would you prosecute?

     

    Legally water-boarding was not considered torture and that was the finding by John Yoo. This has nothing to do with that.

    What this man is describing is torture under it's legal definition. Therefore, anyone giving an unlawful order to torture is liable for prosecution. No?

     

     

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    And when it has come to light (ie, using committment to mental institutions to shut people up if they made trouble for police/politicians), perpetrators were punished and practices changed.


    What are you trying to babble about? Are you suggesting that since a bad thing happened in the past, nobody should worry about it happening again? 

    No. Methinks it's just typical tvoter-tardery: argument for the sake of argument. 



    methinks you and yous focus on Gitmo for political reasons when you know there is every reason to believe Gitmo is the tip of the iceberg for our past/current govt.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from StalkingButler. Show StalkingButler's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    "Just following orders" isn't necessarily a defense.

    Correct. Even though we're not talking about the Yoo advisory specifically here it's true that a memo wouldn't protect anyone who has engaged in torture.

    Mr. Slahi is alleging activities that, if true, are unquestionably torture. You, ACC, and the apparachik all say it's torture so I have to assume most people on the left agree with you.

    So the question still is, where are the Obama administration prosecutions? If they disagree with you that this man was tortured then there wouldn't be any prosecutions. On the other hand, if they agree with you that he was tortured they would have a moral imperative to detain the guilty parties and prosecute.


    What do you suppose it is?

     

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

     

    Big gov't is inept... except when you agree with it... then it is infallible.

     

    Yep, no cognitive dissonance there....

     




    I don't know anyone on the right who thinks government is infallible on any subject.  I think you are confusing that those on the right want t ohold government accountable for what they truly are responsible for.

     




     

    Except on this issue.

     

     



    How is anyone saying government is infallile on this issue?  Seems like most people are questioning the left's knee-jerk acceptance of the word of a terrorist.  Is it possible that there are some innocents in Gitmo?  Yah.  Is it likely? No.

     

    That's not infallability, that reality.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    it gets back to this:  Gitmo works.



    So does execution. If you're going to be a pure utilitarian, you might as well advocate we turn the entire Middle East into a glass plain. Just space 50 megaton blasts roughly 40 miles apart and carpet bomb the place. Sure, millions of innocent people will die, but hey, it would "work".

     

    Another one of skeetards arguments leading straight to evil and nonsense. Surprise surprise.

     



    Execution is the Obama statergery, i.e. drones.

     

     

    As far as nukes:  I tire of your insane strawperson replies.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from StalkingButler. Show StalkingButler's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    Answer from page 1 to Gitmo applicable here:

     

    That must be really uncomfortable for you having your head in the sand like that. At least the other end is probably free...

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    methinks you and yous focus on Gitmo for political reasons when you know there is every reason to believe Gitmo is the tip of the iceberg for our past/current govt.

    Oh. Are you confused?


    [QUOTE]


    Oh ok, which other sites are you against? Have you ever mentioned them in the many claims of outrage at gitmo?

    You are a fraud and an ill manner simpleton in debate.

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    He wants Dems to be able to match Reps' mantra of "we're the security party" in coming elections, even if he's already had his turn.

    He doesn't wants Reps to be able to successfully pander to the tvoters of America. So he won't do it even if it is the right thing to do.



    You are hysterical! You actually think he cares??

    LMAO!!

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    In response to tvoter's electronic defecation:

    Oh ok, which other sites are you against?



     

    Can you read?

     

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    If I oppose Gitmo, I obviously oppose the same sort of detention in other locaions



    Ok, i guess you just only mention gitmo and never one of the other active and worse conditions for prisoners your govt sponsored black ops is running today!

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    Ok, i guess you just only mention gitmo and never one of the other active and worse conditions for prisoners your govt sponsored black ops is running today!



    Do youknow the names and location of all these "black ops" sites?



    Do you understand why "black ops" are?

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/propublica/2012/07/extraordinary_rendition_proxy_detention_and_gitmo_during_the_obama_administration.html

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    As far as nukes:  I tire of your insane strawperson replies.

     


    I'm sorry it bothers you to be shown just how incredibly absurd the conclusions your "principles" lead to are.

    Maybe you should try thinking things through honestly?

     



    I'm sorry that you are so incapable of assembling a cogent argument that you need to throw red herrings like nuking the Mid East around.

    you might try honesty yourself.

    i tire of your banal arguments.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ComingLiberalCrackup. Show ComingLiberalCrackup's posts

    Re: Yes, We Tortured; Gitmo Must Be Closed, Mr. President.

    WSJ:

    ...the anti-antiterror liberals want to eliminate any distinction between the laws of war and the laws of civilian justice. That includes eliminating executive branch powers to designate people who violate the laws of war as enemy combatants and establish military tribunals, or to hold them as long as hostilities continue.

    Mr. Obama indulged that goal as a candidate, but as President he has adopted nearly all of President Bush's laws-of-war paradigm in practice. The reason his Gitmo policy is so confused and disingenuous is that he still wants to appease his left flank rhetorically.

    Thus on Tuesday, he declared that after 9/11 "the notion was somehow that we had to create a special facility like Guantanamo and we couldn't handle this in a normal, conventional fashion. I understand that reaction. But we're now over a decade out. We should be wiser. We should have more experience in how we prosecute terrorists."

    Except the legal and conceptual justification for his covert global targeted killing campaign—including the Abbottabad raid that killed Osama bin Ladenis the same one that underlies Guantanamo: The U.S. is engaged in a Congressionally authorized armed conflict against al Qaeda and its franchises. The drones flying over Pakistan and the Horn of Africa certainly aren't doing routine law enforcement.

    If Mr. Obama really wants to close Gitmo, he and Congress need to answer some threshold questions. Of the 166 current prisoners, 86 have been cleared for release, most of them to Yemen, yet only six others are moving through the military tribunal process. What does the Administration plan to do with the rest of these men? And where, and under what legal system?

    If the plan is to dump them in civilian courts, many will be found innocent under civilian evidentiary standards and they will be released domestically. The Administration might as well set them loose in Rockford without building the new prison. If they are let go in Yemen or elsewhere, many will join the dozens of other former Guantanamo detainees suspected of returning to the fight and killing U.S. soldiers.

    Recall the case of the Somali Ahmed Abdulkadir Warsame, the single terrorist whom U.S. forces have captured under Mr. Obama outside of Iraq and Afghanistan. The White House refused to send him to Gitmo but it did hold him aboard a Navy ship in international waters for a two-month interrogation. Senator Obama might have called that a "secret prison."

     
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