Circumcision?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from canaqua. Show canaqua's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Neither of my boys (one a young adult, the other elementary school aged) are circed and neither has had a bit of trouble, no UTIs or anything.  Our pediatricians (different one for each) said it was a personal decision and that it wasn't medically necessary, but wasn't harmful either.  No one gave me any problem about it, family/hospital/etc.., despite the fact that all the older males in my family are circumsized.

    My feeling is that it's their body and I'm not making any permanent decisions about it when they are too young to voice an opinion.  If it were a religious issue for us, I might have made a different decision, but it is not. 

    I have made sure that the older one was educated about the fact that having a f*reskin makes him more vulnerable to STDs than a circumsized male.  Just like women are...mucous membrane is more permeable to viruses than keratinized skin is.  He likes women and respects them and understands that protecting himself is also protecting his partner. Everyone should care about the welfare of their sexual partner, male or female, circed or not, in love and committed or not.

    Note: Oh, gee, apparently "f*reskin is a dirty words here, go figure!  No wonder so many people are woefully undereducated about sexual matters...biological terms are are verboten at the Globe? Shame on you.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from roneil68. Show roneil68's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    I went through the same back and forth with regard to making the decision.  What finally made me go along with my husband, who always wanted to circumcise, was the fact that 2 of my girlfriends who chose not to do so were constantly battling yeast infections with their toddler sons.  These 2 boys were always the ones who had to immediatley get out of wet bathing suits when the kids are playing in the sprinkler, deal with sand issues at the beach, etc.  It was not an issue of cleanliness, one of them is a pharmacist and both were well aware of the care necessary.  Just my 2 cents!

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from am1028. Show am1028's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    I would like to read some studies on both ends of the debate.  Most of what I've found online is against circumcision (but that's more just opinion than actual studies as well).  LIL and Wags, could one of you give some references to studies citing the risks of not circumcizing?  I'd like to make an informed decision on this topic if I need to.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SarahInActon. Show SarahInActon's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    As the OP here, I was mainly interested in outside influences on parent's decisions and there have been some interesting answer.

    And Wags, pamphelts hardly count as research.  I'm glad I'm not old enough to remember the pamphlets handed out in doctors offices about the benefits of formula over breastfeeding!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from austengirl. Show austengirl's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Similar to other posters - my Mom was very adamant that should this babe be a boy we circumcise.  She is a nurse and only sees the complications of the uncircumcised but I did take it with a grain of salt as she is not seeing all the NON complicated cases.  No one else has really said anything to us about it except to decide before the birth.
    In our birthing class, we had a Pediatrician/Family Practitioner come to speak to us to review what we sshould expect in the hospital and such with the baby.  He was very good and though I can not give sources as it was his word, he said that yes cancer risk goes up in an uncircumcised male but that the original risk is so low to begin with and the increase is so small that it really is not a reason to promote circumcisions.  He did admit that he sees more UTIs and Yeast Infections in uncircumcised males but that with proper care it should not be a problem if your child was not prone to these in the first place. 
    In the end - I dont really have a desire one way or the other so dad is deciding.   
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kiwiguy. Show Kiwiguy's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    I'm sure you all expected to hear from me once I read the above comments. I'll try to be rational, but I must admit I am pretty angry at reading some of the misinformation posted above, especially pretty inflamatory and pathetically fearmongering lines such as;

    "And are we doing our daughters too any favors, having a hood over an organ they might want to casually check out now and again, when honey says - I have a clean bill of health..."

    Come on. Seriously. And you say you work in the medical profession?? Perhaps everyone should be required to shave off all their pub1c hair, because, you know, how can I see if my wife has warts, or a rash, or some other symptom of an STD if she is not completely free of "obstructions". We are married. I am pretty certain we don't have other partners. I'm not Tiger Woods. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.

    To liven things up, and perhaps bring a touch of sanity back to the thread, I would like to introduce some citations, and comments from them. Take them for what they are - it is the internet, afterall.

    I'll start with what seems to actually be kind of pro circumcision, yet objective.

    http://www.medicinenet.com/circumcision_the_medical_pros_and_cons/article.htm

    This website goes through the various pro's and con's. It clearly indicates very good medical conditions that might require circumcision, either in the newborn or later in life. I would point to the final conclusion though, which states "There is no absolute medical indication for routine circumcision of the newborn." (the end of page 5)

    I think that is pretty self explanatory.

    I found the next source to be interesting.

    http://www.cirp.org/

    Get yourself a fresh cup of coffee before exploring this massive dose of information - with citations and references to the actual studies and journal references, etc. You could spend a full day educating yourself here.

    Because Wag brought up the issue of HIV and circumcision, I'd like to point to that specifically here. Watch out - here comes another pesky citation;

    http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/

    A couple of observations:

    * The main studies that are cited in the US regarding the correlation of circumcision in men and the incidence of the HIV virus were all carried out in AFRICA. Do I need to draw any further lines here??

    * You can probably stop referencing these African studies once you read this fact; "Demographic assumptions. Many of the African studies did not directly verify the circumcision status of the study subjects. The circumcision status was guessed based on tribal or religious affiliation. Without actually examining the patients to determine their circumcision status, obviously, it is impossible to get valid results."
    That is like me meeting two guys at a bar. One is Jewish, the other is French. I'll just assume the Jewish guy is circumcised and the French guy isn't. Then I'll claim my assumption as fact.

    * "Publication bias. Studies claiming a positive link between circumcision and reduced HIV incidence are more likely to be published than studies that found no correlation. Publication bias is a common phenomenon across the medical literature: Studies finding a positive result are "more interesting" to journals and therefore more likely to be published. Publication bias unfairly distorts the true significance of circumcision vis-à-vis HIV infection."
    Take that for what it is worth, I guess.

    * The US has (by far) the highest rate of circumcision in the industrialized world. The US also has the highest rate of HIV virus in men in the industrialized world. Men in European countries which have a comparatively lower rate of circumcision also happen to have a comparatively lower rate of HIV virus infection. This does not make sense if being circumcised reduces the rate of HIV infection.
    From the above cited work:
    "The United States HIV incidence rate is 3.5 times higher than that of the closest advanced industrialized nation. Storms 28 and Nicoll 32"
    noted that the high incidence of male circumcision in the US did nothing to prevent the spread of this infection. Nicoll, in fact, states that "the US is the industrialized country most burdened with HIV."


    Go figure, huh?

    I'm not trashing everything you said Wag, but I think you should reread your post. You gave reasonable information about the links between men with STD's and such, passing those infections and virus's (sp?) on to their sexual partners (female and presumably male). But you then made unsubtantiated links between those men having the STD's and being circumcised. There are two final quotes from the above citation I'd like to share;

    "Sociocultural confounding factors. Poland makes it clear that circumcision is not performed at random. Circumcision is a socio-cultural marker that may indicate wide differences in social and cultural practices among different groups and tribes. For example, circumcision incidence in the U.S. is lower among poor and Hispanic people.6
    Circumcision (and, conversely, intactness) are socioeconomic indicators that may relate to differences in sexual behavior, hygienic behavior, and access to medical care. Failure to control for these confounding factors is a frequent source of error in such studies.
    "

    Perhaps that might be relevant to some of the men you have worked with that have STD's?

    Finally;

    "Circumcision changes sexual behavior. Circumcised men have a greater tendency to engage in riskier, "more highly elaborated" sexual practices.31 Such behavior includes unsafe sex (less frequent use of condoms, which deaden sensation even more for circumcised men; anal sex, or sex with multiple partners). This may contribute to the high rate of HIV infection in the United States, where circumcision rates are still of epidemic proportions."

    I hope this is informative to everyone taking an interest in this topic, and I am sorry if I have bored you to death with such a long post. I just get frustrated by non-sensical statements that get used without reference to actual facts, or opinions that are stated as facts. I do not care if someone believes circumcision is right for them or not. I do care if opinion is presented as fact. Circumcision can be the option for your son for many reasons, including religion, family tradition, personal preference, and even aesthetic's. There is no need to justify your preference, just don't portray wicked evil's if someone disagree's with you, by stating such things as;

    And are we doing our daughters too any favors, having a hood over an organ they might want to casually check out now and again, when honey says - I have a clean bill of health...

    Next you'll be suggesting that if same sex marriage is allowed, by next month people will want to be marrying farm animals.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Notanewbie. Show Notanewbie's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Can I say that when I skimmed Wag's original post I totally misread this part:

    "And are we doing our daughters too any favors, having a hood over an organ they might want to casually check out now and again, when honey says - I have a clean bill of health..."

    I took that to mean the clitoral hood and had a completely different understanding of what she was suggesting.  Funny because both the forsk1n and the clitoral hood derive from the same anatomical melting pot.  They have the same function and both provide a level of additional stimulation that is missing if they are not present.


     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Txgrl82. Show Txgrl82's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Kiwi, great post.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from hot-tomato. Show hot-tomato's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    >>And are we doing our daughters too any favors, having a hood over an organ they might want to casually check out now and again, when honey says - I have a clean bill of health...

    Kiwiguy, I'm glad you pointed this out because I was bothered by this as well. I respect parents' choices on this topic, but I do object to the way that intact p*nises are made to seem "other."

    A f*reskin is not a "hood" or some kind of nefarious cloaking device to trick girls into getting STDs. It is a NATURAL part of the body and whether or not you choose to keep your boys intact when they are born (and again, I respect THIS CHOICE), please be sensitive to making uncircumcised men and boys think that they are freaks/diseased/perverts etc.

    *This is the way our boys are born.* As a parent of two uncirc'ed boys, my job is to make sure that a. they know how to keep that part of their body clean and b. they know how to keep themselves and their s*xual partners safe. It is NO DIFFERENT in that regard from what parents of circ'ed boys will do.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from am1028. Show am1028's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Thank you kiwiguy for providing references.  That was a great post.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Daisy75. Show Daisy75's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    I'd just like to add to kiwiguy's well-researched post with a rather general statement.  Condoms are a fantastic way to protect against STDs whether you/your partner are circumsized or not.  You could circumsize every man in the world, but the reality is that those who do not use condoms (and their partners) will be much more likely to get STDs.  Circumsicion is not a panacea for general penile health.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Txgrl82. Show Txgrl82's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    It's true. If we just walked around lopping parts of our bodies just to prevent the possiblity of diseases, it would be kinda crazy...
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alto2. Show Alto2's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    As a woman who has been intimate with both cut and uncut men, I'm glad my hubby still has his bits and pieces intact. I've noticed that he certainly does have more sensitivity down there than the cut guys I've been with. He's never had a problem keeping it clean and healthy.

    Just my $0.02 as an end user...
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Lostgrouse. Show Lostgrouse's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Well Txgrl, some women who are highly genetically predisposed to breast cancer do lop off their breasts to prevent it.  Totally not related to the topic, but thought I would point that out in a friendly manner before you get flamed or something.  Not that it's the same at all.  

    We find out the sex on Monday and we've already decided to go the non-circ route if we find out we're having a boy.  Just interesting to read all of this!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Txgrl82. Show Txgrl82's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Lostgrouse, I totally thought of that before I posted and agree that that is a totally different situation/decision that I have been blessed not to have to make. I think that is a very brave choice for a woman to make and would never make light of the situation!

    I can't site sources, but I have heard of women that do this and still end up having cancer in the little tissue that they have left. So horrible and sad.

    ETA - Have fun finding out!! So exciting!!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from lemonmelon. Show lemonmelon's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    It's not a decision we had to make, so it's not really my place to post here, but I wanted to note that circumcision in the US became widespread in response to the conditions faced by young men during WWI, specifically the hygienic challenges of trench warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_warfare and http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=8&id=73&Itemid=52). Antibiotics had not yet been invented and personal hygiene was usually impossible in wartime conditions, so other prophylactic measures, some medical, were employed. The military strongly encouraged men to get circumcised and, upon returning home, those men usually opted to have their sons circumcised at birth because they'd been told it was medically beneficial and it was better to do it at birth than as an adult.

    Not that any of that has much to do with the decision process, but I like WWI/II stuff and find it fascinating and maybe you guys do too.

    Luckily for us, it's not a decision we had to make, but we did discuss it before learning the gender of our baby. I was surprised to find that my husband's initial reaction was that he absolutely didn't want it done -- I assumed that there would be a "like father, like son" thing going on. I didn't think it was a big deal -- it's not like babies remember the procedure -- and so we looked into the medical benefits and found that, as kiwiguy noted, the AAP and other medical organizations come down firmly in the "potential benefits, no promises, personal decision" category. So our stance was that we'd see what everyone else was doing and do that too, because it seemed largely a cosmetic/social decision.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SarahInActon. Show SarahInActon's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Hey Lostgrouse, veyr exciting, let us all know what it is (if you happen to be telling).  Best wishes!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from luckinlife. Show luckinlife's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Hi everyone.  Again, I am not recommended or suggesting one over the other but a couple of people asked for references.
    There are tons of studies.  These are just a couple.  You can refute any study and I certainly do not want to get into that.  I am just citing a few. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that we dicuss circ but there is no statement saying the male infants SHOULD undergo circ.  I have no idea if this will change in the future. I think it is a completely personal decision.

    Journal of Infectious Disease May 1, 2010 regarding HPV clearance and Circ.

    Journal of Urology Jan 2010 regarding HIV and circ

    Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal April 2008 - regarding UTI and circ in young children.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kiwiguy. Show Kiwiguy's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Hey lemonmelon.

    Thanks for the link to the history of circumcision in the US. A very interesting read, and I recommend everyone to take a look if you have time. It helps explain the popularity in the US, yet the decline of the procedure in most other western countries, and specifically Britain.

    I'm interested in history, including the world wars, etc. Lemonmelon - I thought you might find this anecdote interesting in this context.

    During the first gulf war, a British SAS soldier (think Navy Seals) was deep in the middle of Iraq on a black op (secret mission). Things got a bit messy and he was captured. His detainees were convinced he was American or Israeli, and as a result, he was valued as a prisoner. They interrogated him, etc, and he thought he would be be-headed on video as a statement - as was not un-common at that time. He was trying to convince his captors he was not American or Israeli, but they would not believe him. He then had a crazy idea - he stripped naked and pointed to his uncirmcumcised pen1s. He was able to convince them that if he was in fact American or Israeli that he would be circumcised. Incredibly, they believed him and eventually he was set free. Unfortunately, a Kiwi SAS soldier who had been captured with him was circumcised and he was tortured and beaten severely, although he too was eventually released.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from lemonmelon. Show lemonmelon's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Yikes. Well, if this thread has taught me anything, it's to never join the military.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ml2620-2. Show ml2620-2's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Wow, this is a really informative post the solidifies my decision should we have a boy.

    My husband is uncut - ditto what Alto says :)

    My MIL was a labor and delivery nurse for many years and saw countless, countless botched circumcisions so she was adamant that her sons were not circumcised.  My husband never had any issues about not being like his dad or his friends or comparing or anything, although I will admit I had never seen an uncircumcised man before him so I was surprised for about 5 seconds, delighted for the rest of my life. :)

    That said, I do not look forward to my family learning about our decision, of having to point out that DH is uncircumcised and we are doing likewise. My family is opinionated, to say the very least. My cousin adopted a baby boy from Korea and had him circumcised for asthetic reasons (so he would look like dad) and 18 months or so. My dad was circumcised at age 7 when he had his tonsils out. To me, both seem unnecessary.

    It's good to hear circumcision is kind of a modern invention, also very surprising that so much of it is wrapped up in war.

    Did anyone have family that had strong opinions about this and how did you deal with it?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kiwiguy. Show Kiwiguy's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    I think I am spending way too much time studying all there is to know about circumcision.

    luckinlife - I tried to research the articles you mentioned, but the closest I could get to them were sites that require registration (and payment). In other words, I simply don't have free access to the studies / articles you reference.

    I did find some interesting comment on the CDC website and a few others. I also gained a little further insight to the African studies that keep getting mentioned. I think the details are worth pointing out in the context of our thread.

    The African studies were carried out with groups of sexually active ADULT men - not newborns. The trial groups were set up and some men were sent off to be circumcised and the others were left as they were. The studies focused on men have vaginal sex with women. Interesting, the studies found that HIV was most often transmitted from the male to the female when they resumed sexual activity before the circumcision wound had fully healed (that must have hurt!). This is one part of the problem. Another issue that was raised in the study was the lack of condom use, even when the participants were counselled on there use, etc.

    One of the trials, in Rakai, Uganda was stopped because "circumcision was unlikely to benefit women." ( http://womens-health.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/2009/730/1 )
    Ironically, the researchers found that because the couples were engaging in sexual activity before the circumcision wounds were fully healed, the men who had been circumcised were passing on the HIV virus at a higher rate (18%) to the men who had not had the procedure (12%). I think it can be realised that the infection rates were influenced by the wound not healing, thus ruining the trial. That points directly to Wags earlier comment which I think is valid for cut and uncut men - if you have open wounds on your pen1s, you should not be engaging in sexual shenanagins. I'm sure you would all agree the same applies to a women with open wounds.

    In all the studies I have read about in Africa, the outstanding issue still seems to rest with condom use. But, back to my original point with this post - these were studies carried out by circumcising adult men in an attempt to curb the spread of HIV, rather than a procedure done at birth which is what we are talking about here. Keep in mind that the studies also note (usually in fine print at the end) that the chances of being infected with HIV in Africa are MUCH, MUCH higher than they are in the US in general. In the Us it seems, the statistical effects become negligible.

    Interestingly, the only studies attempted in the US that I can find are related to homosexual couples. I can find no studies relating to male / female couples.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kiwiguy. Show Kiwiguy's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    ml2620-2: Re your father ....

    Parents: "Son, we have to go to the hospital so the Doctor can remove your tonsils."

    Your father at the hospital: "Wait! That. Is. Not. My. TONSILS!!!! Whhaaaaaaa ...... mommy ........"

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from am1028. Show am1028's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Kiwiguy, the Journal of Urology article with luckinlife referenced adult male circumcision in Africa.  I haven't had time yet to read the others. 

    I guess we could all just use this as a threat to our uncircumsized sons:  don't engage in high risk behaviors, or we'll have your circumcized.  That ought to stop them going around having unprotected sex.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from kiwigal. Show kiwigal's posts

    Re: Circumcision?

    Just in case any of you are not sick of the circumcision disscussion (kiwiguy, I'm looking at you) and want to read any further, I would recommend checking out Andrew Sullivan's blog, the Daily Dish:

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/

    If you don't know who he is, he's a gay, British, HIV-positive conservative (probably more libertarian) commentator who is vocally opposed to male (and female) circumcision. He is good for linking to studies that are being discussed and providing oportunities for opposing viewpoints to respond to what he says. A search of male circumcision on his site will return a whole bunch of posts.
     
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