Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from medfordcc. Show medfordcc's posts

    Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    Hi guys.  I need to air my problems with sleep, and I'm wondering if anyone has insights.  I don't need info on sleep training, per se, and I actually hit the library and checked out a few books this weekend.  But I'm more wondering if anyone has had this type of disruption and/or has any theories.
    Our 14 month old was not the best sleeper, but not bad.  She has been getting put down awake in her crib for several months, both nap and bedtime, and almost always went to sleep on her own.  We never let her cry for more than a few minutes, but would go back, calm, and repeat.  This worked fine to teach her to go to sleep on her own.  She would sleep from 7 PM to between 3 and 5 AM and nurse and get put right back and be fine.  This was working for us.

    In the last two weeks, everything has fallen apart.  When I do the bedtime routine, she is fine, but when I put her down she screams.  Pick up, repeat, more screaming.  I've left her for up to 10 minutes, but this makes her even more hysterical.  Then when I pick her up, she won't STOP screaming.  She cries and cries and points to the door of her room.  Sometimes she won't calm down until we walk around the house a few times.  Then we repeat this fun during the night, for between 1 and 3 HOURS pretty much every night for the last 2 weeks.

    Sorry for the long post, but I'm a little worn out.  Here are some weird things:
    - she goes down awake and fine for naps.  No problems.
    - last night at bed time she was screaming and trying to jump off my lap when I was trying to rock her.  My mom took her, rocked her, put her down awake, and she went to sleep fine with no crying.  But she does the screaming for both me and my husband.
    - this is bizarre, but I *just* got AF back at around the same time this started.  I don't know if there has been a corresponding supply drop and if that could be an issue?  Or some weird hormonal 6th sense?  She is nursing at bedtime and in the AM.
    - she is getting molars, but that was also true a month ago.
    - she got a cold around the time it started, which we thought was the issue, but the cold is gone and she is still a mess.

    I'm really getting a little desperate.  If I knew what the problem was, I feel like I could address it, but the screaming while I'm actually trying to rock and comfort her is really bad.  Thanks for any insight!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from stefani2. Show stefani2's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    not sure how helpful this is, but my 12MO DD is staring to throw tantrums, scream, bang her head on the floor, etc. and our pedi said to expect this to get worse until 18M or so, and i think ppl theorize that this is a phase toddlers go through where they are frustrated b/c they want to do something but can't communicate it, etc.  could your DD be developing into this?  maybe her screams are just for you and dad b/c she is frustrated/wants to play/etc and this is how she conveys it?  if i were you i would probably start to "test" her a little bit - like next time she loses it while you are rocking her, give her some space, move away, start reading a book out loud in the other corner of the room as if to say "i'm going to let you calm down, if you want to read i'm doing it over here" and see if she calms down.  ???
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    In Response to Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation:
    My mom took her, rocked her, put her down awake, and she went to sleep fine with no crying.  But she does the screaming for both me and my husband.
    Posted by medfordcc

    This is the most telling part of your post to me.  I don't know what the problem is, but I'd start here and dig deep.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from medfordcc. Show medfordcc's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    Yeah, I think you're both right.  Stefani, our LO is one who understands tons of what we say (as evidenced by her actions in response), but she does not have many words.  I think her frustration is mounting.  So far we've been able to head it off during the day, but only because it's easier to figure out what she wants (and easier to create a distraction if it's something she can't have).
    Kar, I agree.  My sense is that she wants something, we don't know what it is, and that it's something she only expects from me or my husband.  But what the heck is it??
    I have heard that it is common for toddlers to save the worst for their parents... be angels at daycare and fall apart at home, et cetera.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from medfordcc. Show medfordcc's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    Or at least that is what I'm telling myself.  I am so tired I might cry.  And it's really painful when she won't settle down for me and I'm supposed to be her mother.  :(
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    In Response to Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation:
    Or at least that is what I'm telling myself.  I am so tired I might cry.  And it's really painful when she won't settle down for me and I'm supposed to be her mother.  :(
    Posted by medfordcc

    I think your guilt (that DH probably shares) is, ironically, part of the problem.  If she had a real need, she'd scream no matter who puts her down - a need is a need.  But, your mom puts her down and everything is hunky dory.  Therefore, I can only conclude that you and DH are giving her a payoff for screaming that your mom doesn't. I can't possibly know what that is, though, of course.  My guess is that guilt is the root cause and is manifesting in your doing something that DD has decided she wants every night and gets by screaming if you put her down and doesnt' get when your mom puts her down.  She's very astute.

    Instead of asking your mom what she does to get her to calm down, ask her what she doesn't do.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from kiwigal. Show kiwigal's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    medford--first of all, you have my sympathy. Sleep regressions just stink and are SO hard. They just get worse, too, when you're all tired and on edge. Here are a couple of thoughts--the sleep disruptions might be a result of her new-found crawling progress (that you mentioned in I & T). She might have a hard time winding down when she's got other pre-occupations. It's also a time when separation anxiety might be kicking in as well as her increased social awareness and connectedness. You and DH could take it as a compliment that she screams for you and not grandma--you guys are much more fun to hang out with in the middle of the night!

    We had a major sleep regression with DS over the summer which was complicated by the fact that I was 9 months pg and on bedrest. It was amazing to us how quickly DS adapted to getting nightime "attention" and would just carry on until he got it. We had to do CIO to break the habit and this one was a little more painful than previous ones, unfortunately. I just say that to say that some CIO attempts can be harder than others, but doesn't mean they shouldn't be done (if that's your MO).

    I also hear you on hurt feelings...yesterday at daycare pick-up, DS ran to daddy and gave him a big hug, then ran toward me. I put my arms out and he ran up, grabbed his lovey out of my hand as he screamed "Lovey!", and kept running down the hall. Talk about feeling like chopped liver! It's not personal--you know that. It's just hard. It WILL get better, though.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from winter09wedding. Show winter09wedding's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    oh kiwi- I feel for you.

    medford- we have had some of the same issues the past month and our kids are around the same age.  first- about your mom- did she do it once or she does it all the time and it works?
    - I stopped nursing at 14 months... but my supply was really low at the end and I supplemented with a bottle to help him get through the night.
    - I posted a few weeks back about nighttime hunger. that made it worse too.  i don't think that he was starving, but getting back to sleep was harder when a little hungry (And I didn't have the supply to help him.)  He is also in the middle of a growth spurt- is starving all the time.
    - he is currently getting three more teeth. molars are hard.
    - and finally, last but not least, we now have toddlers, who do get upset when they don't get what they want.  My experience in the grocery store this week is a perfect example- I was THAT lady. :(  finally figured out he was hungry- ate most of a can of gerber snacks before check out.

    ps. DS is picking up sign language like it is going out of style- he can now to milk, more, bed... maybe that is all she needs- an indicator you understand what she wants or a way to communicate. DS also throws his lovey in the crib when we are "getting up". he tried that at 2am the other day, and I gave it back to him and called it sleepytime. he got the message (but wasn't happy).

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from medfordcc. Show medfordcc's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    Thanks, guys.  Once again, I think you are all right on the money.  Makes me feel a lot better to know we are not alone.
    Kiwi - good point about the developmental changes.  She is also learning to sit up from lying down, which I think she is working working working at.
    (And that stinks about the daycare pick up -- you're right; just because you know it's not personal doesn't mean it doesn't hurt!)

    My guess with my mom is that it's not something my husband and I *are* doing, but something that we could potentially do for her.
    Another thing I just realized is that my mom was also away for two weeks (she watches her two days every week).  Maybe she missed her??  Now my husband is away this week...

    Winter - good point about the sign language!  I am going to try to be more consistent about it.  And molars STINK.  All are cut through now, but three are still partly under.  It's taking forever.
    I think that's what's keeping me from being more firm -- she's biting her hand and I know there is real pain, but as Kar said, it can't be the main problem if she goes down for my mom.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ml2620-2. Show ml2620-2's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    Med - First off, I'm so jealous you are still nursing at 14 months - DD self weaned just before her first birthday and I'm still a little bummed about it. :(

    DD is also doing some very similar things, the to bed tantrums are much worse and she screams alot more. For a while I laid down in the bed next to her and waited for her to fall asleep, hushing her and letting her know I was there (often times I also just fell asleep).

    But she seems to know she's working the situation and for us at least, that's the key (given that your mom was able to put her down I'm thinking this is a power struggle). I've had better results and faster "to sleep" times with CIO, rather than dragging it out, if you can stand it. I admit, DD isn't much of a screamer, I still find it upsetting to do though, but it only lasts a few minutes.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from medfordcc. Show medfordcc's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    ML - I am happy to be nursing, but yet also a little jealous that weaning was easy for your LO!  I think we're going to have a tough time.  I guess the grass is always greener...

    Yes, this thread is convincing me more and more that it's about development, communication, and power.
    My previous thinking was that since she still screamed after I picked her up, she wasn't screaming just to get me to pick her up.
    I'm a little afraid to go full on CIO.  If she doesn't throw up, I might.
    I guess we were just lucky before that she was able to go to sleep on her own without having to do the whole CIO.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from smileyd. Show smileyd's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    Here's an out of the box idea - what if she isn't quite ready for bed yet.  You said she points to the door and wouldn't calm down until you walked around the house.  Couple that with the fact that she wakes up between 3 and 5 and I'd say she may not be ready for bed.  Why not try playing for an extra 30 minuts after dinner before doing the bedtime routine and see if she is more ready for bed then after expending some more energy. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dz76. Show dz76's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    When DD1 was the only one in her room (now all 3 are in the same room), we were harda**es about bedtime (we're big CIO believers).  Once you were in your room, you didn't come out until morning.  If DD woke up in the middle of the night, DH or I would go in and comfort but if she was not stuck, dry and stopped crying after being picked up.  DD went back in her crib after 5-10 mins of rocking.  And that was that.  I had no problem letting her cry herself back to sleep if there wasn't something I could fix for her (hungry, wet, etc.) 

    We're still kinda like that although with everyone together, we do sometimes bring kids into our room to calm down.  DD1 (3) has been getting out of bed as soon as we leave the room and coming to knock on the door so we come back (actually kinda cute while being annoying).  We bring her back to bed from the doorway and tell her good night again.  If she does it a second time, we tell her firmly to not get out of bed again.  She has had a couple of wake up crying nightmares (again the knocking which is still amusing but less cute at 3 am) but while she comes into our bed for a snuggle I ask every 5 mins if she is ready to go back to bed.

    DS is the real pain when it comes to sleeping and all the kids being in the same room.  He's an early riser, 5am, and he is SOOOOOO loud too! (is that a gender thing?)  So while I would have let DD1 play/fuss until a resonable time (I'd take after 6 am although DD1 was good until 8am most days).  I have to get him up so he doesn't wake the girls up.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    You said you're a little afriad to do a full on CIO, but if you're quasi doing anything to do with training/conditioning, she'll scream forever because she knows it will work at some point because it's worked before.  I'd pick a method of sleep training that feels best to you and stick with it 100%.  99% might seem good enough, but all it does create the 1% chance that you'll cave if she screams long enough and she'll bank on that 1% every time.  I'm guessing your mom is 100% consistent with however she does it.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from medfordcc. Show medfordcc's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    Smiley, I was thinking that, too.  Especially because for the first week she was totally fine and cheerful all day, so there didn't seem to be any sleep deprivation.  So we did a later bedtime for two days and it was much better at bed time but still bad at 1 AM.
    Now we are getting into a cycle because she is tired from having been up all night.  Yesterday her nap got interrupted by a really loud yipping dog.  So if she naps well today, I'll try to follow her cues for bed time.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Micromom. Show Micromom's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    With all the posts about sleep interruptions, I'm starting to wonder if there's a full moon or something!  I'm having the same problem with my 6 month old, who has been sleeping through the night for months.  Argh.

    Here's a weird, counterintuitive, potential solution that worked when my son was about 14 months - A friend of mind suggested that his bed time (7:30 PM) was actually too late and maybe he was overtired which led to some drama at bedtime.  We put him to bed a half hour earlier, and it worked. 

    Also, rule out an ear infection, which gets worse when they lay down, the molars could be creating a similar problem.  We tried a little tylenol before bed and it seemed to help.  Definitely check with your doctor though, of course.

    I feel you on the sleep deprivation torture though, you're definitely not alone while up late at night.  Good luck!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from lemonmelon. Show lemonmelon's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    I know you don't want to hear about sleep training, but for what it's worth I sleep trained at 14 months because of the sort of behavior you describe, from the bedtime tantrum to the 3 am waking.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from medfordcc. Show medfordcc's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    Lemon, did you use Ferber?  How much agony did you have with a 14 month old?  I didn't mean I didn't want to hear about sleep training; I just meant that I actually got off my rear and got some books out of the library instead of asking you guys to condense them for me.  :)
    Honestly, I'm afraid to use a CIO method not because I think there's anything wrong with it, but because whenever I leave her to cry for a few minutes she gets *more* wound up instead of less.  Then she's in a crazy cycle of crying that is compounded as she gets more and more tired...

    Kar, I agree with you about the consistency.  But that's not actually the difference with my mom -- she's just as bad as we are.  I really think it's something else.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from lemonmelon. Show lemonmelon's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    At the time it was absolute torture but in retrospect it wasn't that bad. I think it took three nights, and then we had to retrain from time to time after (I say this like it's no big deal but each time I was in despair). We did Ferber, and I had the same concern you did -- I referred to it as "crying up" because my daughter would work herself into a frenzy and even vomit when I tried to let her CIO. But I read the Ferber book and he said that's natural and part of the process. And that's how it went with us -- she'd cry and scream and get more and more worked up and then suddenly there would be silence. I'd panic and think she had cried herself to death but it turned out she was just sleeping peacefully. And the next day she wasn't scarred or resentful -- she was cheerful in rested for the first time ever. But yeah, it's TOTALLY miserable when you're doing it. I thought our neighbors were going to call the cops on us for child abuse she was screaming and jumping and thrashing around so much. But it was worth It in the long run. Now she submits to the inevitability of sleep without complaint. And when she is super fussy at bedtime I know that she's sick, so that's good too.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from medfordcc. Show medfordcc's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    In Response to Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation:
    I'd panic and think she had cried herself to death
    Posted by lemonmelon

    I know EXACTLY what you mean.  I guess it's not possible to cry yourself to death?  But to me, it always seems like a distinct possibility.
    I guess everything seems worse at the time and not so bad after.
    I am currently reading the "no cry sleep solution" (ha ha.  ah, ha ha.)
    So far I haven't gotten to anything that is different from everything we already did before this regression.  So we will see if there is anything new; if not, I move on to my next library book which is Ferber.

    One thing in the book that is in keeping with Kar's point about consistency is that it's really hard to stick to a plan when you're super worn out.  This is currently one of our main problems.  I think my husband and I might have to trade nights (instead of just sessions within a night) so we are not so beaten down.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from lemonmelon. Show lemonmelon's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    I hated the Lots of Cry and No Sleep Solution. It definitely resulted in an increase in crying for us and our daughter.

    I wasn't terribly consistent about sleep training and it still worked. It's just like with a diet -- you make a strong start and then slip up from time to time, but the important thing is to mostly stick to the plan.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from medfordcc. Show medfordcc's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    Well.  If it's like a diet, then I'm totally hosed.

    So far the no cry sleep solution book (ha ha.  ah ha ha!!) is all stuff I knew that we did a long time ago.  I'm going to ride it out, though, and see if there's anything new that would actually help us.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from lemonmelon. Show lemonmelon's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    I tried a lot of stuff before sleep training. You really have to get to it your own way in your own time (if you decide to do it at all) because it's hard and you need to gut it out for a few days. If you're a soft touch like me it will hurt your heart and make you feel so much sadder than the kid could possibly feel. But the fact that your kiddo goes right to sleep for other people makes me think that she'll train pretty easily when and if you decide to go for it. My daugher was the same way -- she knew how to manipulate me. She even had different tactics with me and my husband -- with him she'd scream as if she was in pain and he'd get all worked up feeling her belly and checking her temperature; with me she'd sob as if her little heart was breaking and bury her tiny face in my breast and I'd nurse to comfort her, thinking she had some secret sorrow or fear of abandonment. Crafty lil critter.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    I didn't mean to inspire you to beat yourself up if you aren't totally consistent.  The more consistent you are, the more she knows what to expect from you so it would probably go smoother, but like lemon said, it will happen no matter what, and all anyone can do is the best they can at whatever plan is chosen.  You must have compared notes with your mom...does she have any ideas?  

    When I'm sleep deprived I go insane, get extremely and irrationally defensive, am unable to formulte coherent thoughts, and I cry for no reason whatsoever...I feel really bad for your situation and hope it improves soon!
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from medfordcc. Show medfordcc's posts

    Re: Sleep question #4586 - 14 month old deteriorating situation

    Thanks, guys... yes, I am afraid of the secret sorrow and fear of abandonment as well.
    I had good luck at bedtime yesterday by just wearing her down.  Rock and sing one song, put her down, leave.  Wait a *really* short time while she cried, like 30 seconds, go back, repeat.  I think I did it about 8 times, and finally the last time she just made a few token cries and went to sleep.
    However, this did not translate to overnight success!  But I think I will keep trying the wearing down approach for a little longer.  The wearing down also worked at her second wake up, around 4 AM.
    Kar, I've been eavesdropping on my mom and she doesn't do anything different in addition.  I think it's just, like you mentioned, she knows she's not getting anything extra from my mom.  Whereas from me she has the possibility of getting nursing or baby advil (which she loves).

    I still also think this has something to do with the return of AF and the drop in supply.  This morning after I nursed her she kept signing for more but there was no more.  :(
    This could be the incoherent sleep deprived guilt talking.
     
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