Need your opinions...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    This is not a matter of not liking these people with NPD and being selfishly comfortable at home during family events to avoid people we don't much care for.  Pugs and I have put up with people we don't like at all our whole lives, doing what nice people do in that situation, like everyone else for the greater good.  These people, though, are deceptive, constantly manipulative, and purposefully destructive with every word out of their mouths (check out the link I posted about this disorder - it's hard to imagine anyone can be like that).  So, it's impossible to have a relationship or even spend time with that person without it being a 100% destructive exercise in futility.  If you don't know a person with NPD, you'd assume it's always possible to have a relationship of some caliber, albeit strained and not too much fun, if you try hard enough and are committed to doing the right thing like mature adults are supposed to do.  And, frankly, before dealing with my BIL I'd have judged Pugs poorly for her reaction to her MIL which I would have thought meant she was selfish and not willing to deal with what she signed up for having married her husband.  With someone with NPD, though, it's just not the case.  I've learned that the hard way; it could have actually destroyed our marriage to continue to deal with my BIL as if he did not have a mental disorder causing wave after wave of pure destruction on purpose.  Hopefully, that puts it in perspective for anyone wondering why on earth we can't just s_ck it up and deal.  And, if it doesn't, I totally understand.  No hard feelings.

    P.S.  I can't believe I posted this without saying how sorry I am about your father, KAM.  And, I totally understand your well made point and agree with you 99.99999% of the time regarding it.  But, in this bizzare and rare case, I think by protecting/shielding herself from this person with NPD, she IS putting her marriage/spouse first.  It benefits their marriage.  I dealt and put up with BIL for my husband's sake until it became obvious that it was hurting him more than helping because of the destructive nature of all his brother's relationships, especially with the people who marry in.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from PugsandKisses. Show PugsandKisses's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    KAM, I am so sorry to hear about everything you're going through with your father.  Regardless of the relationship you have with him, that's a very difficult situation and I can't imagine having to make those decisions.  :(

    It sounds like you and your DH have an agreement about family involvement that makes you both happy.  That's what I'm working towards with my DH.  I totally understand and agree with your point about having to do things I don't want to do for him sometimes.  To be honest, I would love to say that from now on, I'll do holidays with my family and he can do holidays with his, but obviously that isn't an option!  :)  That's why that for his sake, I plan to show up at his family's events with a smile on my face every time (I get along well with the rest of his family, so having them around helps).  I just don't want the close relationship with my MIL that she wants to have with me. 

    However, when the baby is born, I still plan on letting her be as involved as she wants with her grandchild.  I won't be inviting her into my home while I'm the only one there with the baby, but when DH is around she's more than welcome.  Just because I don't want a relationship with her doesn't mean my daughter doesn't get to have one.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    Me, too - Thanksgiving will be at DH's and I'll put a smile on and deal with BIL as cordially as possible.  However, the ongoing relationship is over to save everyone, not just me.  It would be a much different situation if it were my MIL, not BIL, and if we had kids...which someday hopefully we'll have!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from KAM2007. Show KAM2007's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    Kar-don't get me wrong, I tried to state that Pugs definitely needs to put herself first in taking care of her family right now. I was just trying to share perhaps where her DH may be coming from, as someone who comes from a difficult family (putting it mildly) and established my own coping mechanisms to deal with them.

    In the beginning I just assumed DH could mentally deal with them the same way I have learned to-not to take it personally-their issues are theirs and theirs alone! I'm not responsible for them at all. What I'm responsible for is for how I react to them. What I learned was DH wasn't like that, he wanted to protect me too much to just ignore their crazy self destructive behaviors.

    What has helped my situation is me accepting who DH is (the main reason I married the guy-he's nothing like my family!) and removing expectations of him to s_uck it up-since that just doesn't work for these types of people! He didn't have to, He didn't have to put himself in that situation, and I stopped trying to put him in that situation. It relieved a huge amount of stress from us.

    My hope is that Pug's DH can reach the point where I have, accept Pug's boundaries, and it sounds like he has. Because you're right, allowing that distance has done worlds for our marriage and family-it is "ideal"? no, but it's what works for us.

    I wanted to share my current situation since DH and I have learned to put eachother first and deal with difficult family-which has meant setting boundaries, and respecting the boundaries of your spouse. And share how allowing DH to put his distance he has become such a source of support for me, through this difficult tiime-a place I'm not sure we could have been at if I hadn't recognized what DH needed to do. Don't close the door on the thought that just because you're setting your boundaries with the IL's doesn't mean that you won't/can't be there for your spouse in difficult time.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    I totally understand - I think both our experiences are valuable here if I do say so. :)

    I absolutely was approaching my BIL from the standpoint that I'm only responsible for my reactions which were almost always upstanding.  I gave up on a constant relationship with him, though, when I discovered that it was nothing but destructive to everyone involved to keep up on a regular basis with him no matter how well I reacted to his antics and didn't take them personally.  Any information he gets whatsoever is used against anyone he can make it work for, and if I don't give him any (which I learned not to) he makes it up if we've talked at all.  So, we don't talk at all.

    That reminds me, great rule, Pugs, to always have a witness with you and MIL.  She cannot twist things other people hear...or, if she tries, at least there will be at least 2 people who say otherwise.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from poppy609. Show poppy609's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    In Response to Re: Need your opinions...:
    [QUOTE]
    Your post made me wonder if I offended non-Christians, poppy - I hope not!
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]

    Sorry - no, not at all!  I was just agreeing that it's a great sentiment, and meaning that you can use the quote with or without the religious connotations, that's all!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    Oh, that's a relief - thanks for letting me know! :)
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    PUGS!!!!!!  THE BOOK IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!   If I could give it 10 out of 5 stars I would.

    I'm reading it aloud with DH.  He's having a hard time accepting that his brother is sick, but at the same time cannot believe how the author seems to know his brother and his own reactions to and frustrations with him.  I keep reminding him that he "knows them" because he's treated 100s of people just like them experiencing the same relationship dynamics and manipulations.  It's SPOT ON.

    Buy it rush delivery:  The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists: Coping with the One-Way Relationship in Work, Love, and Family
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    Oh, and I'm highlighting portions as I go so not only can we refer to them (it will take a few readings, I think, for DH to process it all), but when we loan the book to my in-laws (his parents) it will point to the attention grabbing passages regarding BIL.  I worry about the "childhood wounding" portion that covers the roots of this problem with respect to letting the parents read it, but isn't all knowledge power?  Sigh.  I hope they won't feel like I'm giving it to them to passive aggressively blame them, "See why he's like this?  It's your fault!" because that's not my goal; there are so many techniques they can learn from it to handle him in a way that doesn't continue to ruin their own lives.  That's what I want, to improve the quality of everyone's lives around him and to stop the family from circling his drain.  It's a must-have handbook for survival.  Why allow him to wreck their retirement?

    Thoughts?  Should we keep this vastly helpful book to ourselves because it covers the parental forces that led to this?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALF72. Show ALF72's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    You are eventually going to have to be in the same room w/ this witch, I mean, woman at some point.  Could you have dinner with her and your DH in a restaurant?  And take a separate car so if she drives you nuts, you can leave early 'b/c you aren't feeling well' and drive yourself home.  If you go 1x and she's a pain, I think you will have every argument in the world to make for not seeing her for the remainder of your pg.  GL.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    Pugs, you have to let me know when you see my review of the book above.

    ALF, great idea to always have an escape route with these types of monsters...I mean, people.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from PugsandKisses. Show PugsandKisses's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    Kar, I'm so glad to hear you like the book!  I checked it out on Amazon and used the Look Inside feature...seems like it will be a great read!  I didn't realize it also addressed these people in the workplace, which is helpful because I work with a few people just like this as well.

    Thank you for the recommendation!  Maybe I should buy two copies and give my MIL one for Christmas...  Wink
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    LOL!!!  She'd LOVE it, I'm sure, as it's (wait for it....) ALL ABOUT HER!!!  Ha!  I crack myself up. :D

    I'm truly going to buy copies for the rest of the family.  DH is getting so much out of it, and it would be a shame if everyone else continued limping along in the dark without this insight.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from framerican51008. Show framerican51008's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    Kar, do you think your in-laws might be insulted or annoyed if you gave them this book?  Or is everyone pretty much on the same page when it comes to BIL?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Prill. Show Prill's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    I thought the same thing, Fra.

    Kar - I'm not sure what your relationship is like with your inlaws, or if everyone else in the family has sat down and actively discussed your BIL and his behavior.  If they have (and you have been included in these conversations) and they are all of the same mind set as you and are all at a loss as to how to handle him, then yes, sharing the book could be good.  If however you have not had such a conversation/s with them, then I would hold off giving it to them.  They are probably aware of the situation and are concerned, they may even feel they are to blame and don't feel good about the entire situation. To give them this book I think might be construed as 'butting in', even if you have good intentions.  Especially as it is hi-lighted!

    If, however, your DH has had these conversations with them, maybe he could bring the book to them. Or, if it really is that valuable, he could buy them their own copy, sans hi-lighting.

    One of my BILs has a gambling problem, and although we are all aware of it and my ILs are real salt of the earth types, I still don't know how they would respond if I was to present them with a book about dealing with addicts (even if I was well intentioned).
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from framerican51008. Show framerican51008's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    Prill, my thoughts exactly!  And Kar, I know you have good intentions, but it's another perspective to consider.  Similar situation to Prill - I pretty much think my BIL is an alcoholic, but I'm not about to buy a book and give it to his mother.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    Everyone acknowledges that he has "a severe problem," but they don't know what it is.  This book would give them insight to a problem they all know is there along with NEW ways to handle him that no one would ever come up with on their own without a book like this that exposes the tactics in black and white and what to do about them.  Their lives are being (and have been ruined) one day at a time, every single day because they do not know the ins and outs of the disorder their son has despite their knowing something is wrong with him.  They took him to doctors who didn't help 25 years ago so they think "that's it" on the pyschology front, and I think they'd be thrilled to have this resource that explains the issues and how to handle them in constructive ways.  The only problem I can see regarding giving them the book is that it traces the disorder back to his bringing up.  No parent would want to read THAT part.  I'd like to give it to them with that chapter mysteriously missing.  I know the author's point in putting it in there, but it doesn't help here at all.  It's too late and what's the point of their knowing the cause?

    I am SURE the knowledge in the book would help them reclaim some joy for the rest of their lives.  Positive.  But, can they handle the section on "how did this happen."  That's the $64,000 question.

    Thanks for helping me work this out in my mind, everyone.  And, thanks to Pugs for allowing the hijack.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Prill. Show Prill's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    Obviously you know your inlaws and your ralationship with them better than we all do, but I would just advise that you tread carefully.

    As a side note, assuming they have other children that do not behave this way, then one must argue that there must be a level of 'nature' not just 'nurture' as a cause.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Need your opinions...

    Mm, the tread carefully point is well taken.   Maybe I'll give it to SIL (we're VERY close) and see what she thinks after she reads it.  I'm just so excited to read this because it is so spot on and, I think, HELPFUL.  And, I'm a born helper by nature...so, of course, I'm driven to give it to anyone suffering with a lack of understanding and skills to handle him without continuing to ruin their lives.  I mean that wholeheartedly, too, he RUINS their everyday lives.

    Yes, it's true, they do have kids that didn't develop this particular disorder so maybe they'll dismiss that chapter as irrelevant.  That would be good...

    Thanks, again, for discussing it with me.  I don't have a lot of opportunity, and I appreciate your input.
     

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