2ww caffeine and alcohol?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from GC1016. Show GC1016's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    Like I said, and this post supports, there's no consensus here.  I'm definitely a moderation girl, and you're not going to get a lot of you should/shouldn't stuff out of me.  You get so much finger-wagging on both sides (The "Everything you eat goes right to your baby; how COULD you????" v. the "You girls today.  Over-thinking everything.  Back in my day I smoked cigarettes/drank mahattans/ate raw meat/wrestled alligators and MY kids turned out FINE.") that it all devolves to noise. 

    It's a long 40 weeks.  You have to do what feels right for you.  Which is, most likely, a nice balance between mindful restrictions and the occasional indulgence that reminds you that, yes, you may be a Mama-to-Be, but you're more than an incubator and today is a two-cup day. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    Of course, for one particular m/c the cause will not be known even in a sound study.  But, if the control group has a m/c rate of 10% and the caffeine group has a m/c rate of 12%, 2% of the test group had a m/c due to caffeine (if the study is statistically sound). 

    No one would ever know if they were in the 10% who'd have had one anyway or the 2% who wouldn't have.

    And, as far as finger wagging goes, I still don't have an opinion about what anyone should do about this issue at all.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedFishBlueFish. Show RedFishBlueFish's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    That's still just one variable and I think that's the argument that the OBs who believe in moderation understand.

    Unless every woman in the studies ate exactly the same things, lived in the exact same controlled environment, etc., then you can't say with any certainty whatsoever that caffeine is definitely the cause. Statistically sound or not, it's a ridiculously tiny variable. Those studies may imply a relationship, but I highly doubt they're perfectly controlled, double-blind studies, which are the gold standard.

    My guess, not having the benefit of the studies to read, is that these are based on patients' recall. Those kinds of studies are notoriously unreliable, as human beings are unreliable. This extends beyond just caffeine and miscarriage to all sorts of medical studies.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    Indeed, that's exactly why everyone has to process the information and respond in a way that makes sense to them.  Everyone has different viewpoints and interpretations of study "findings" and how, if at all, they should impact their lives.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALF72. Show ALF72's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    I'm w/ GC on this one for during pregnancy.  I'd definitely be looking for a new OB if he or she had the gall to ever refer to me as a 'vessel'.  Once you know you are pg, what you decide to do after consultation w/ your OB is what's best for you.

    But for the 2 ww?  Someone has already correctly mentioned that noting passes from mom to baby during the 2ww, so cutting out anything [other than martini benders, illegal drugs and 2 packs a day] probably isn't going to have any effect whatsoever on your kid.

    Pingo, the world was not as polluted 30 odd years ago as it is now.  I don't think mercury in fish was as much of an issue. I agree w/ you re moderation. I drank coffee, ate deli meat unheated and ate tuna in moderation when I was pg. I do not, nor does my doctor, think that any of this had anything to do w/ my mc.  

    I will give up coffee/tea entirely during pg once I get a doctor to tell me how they managed to kick their caffeine habit and still function in a professional setting that requires intense concentration w/o getting fired for going off on someone or committing an act of gross negligence, or how they maintained a healthy marriage w/o ripping off their husband's face, w/o at least 1-2 cups of coffee/tea per day.   
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from luckinlife. Show luckinlife's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    Happy Birthday Alf!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from lemonmelon. Show lemonmelon's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    You just go ahead and yell at people, break down crying, drop off mid-sentence and stare into space, and screw up all over the place -- everyone loves a pregnant woman.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from stefani2. Show stefani2's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    simple solution... don't give up the coffee!!!  :)

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from MichelleandtheBoys. Show MichelleandtheBoys's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    I shouldn't get in on this debate, but I feel like i should defend Kar's point.  She is merely stating some information and how she chooses to use it, not what she feels anyone else should do.   

    I've had friends feel that I was judging or insulting them when I wouldn't have coffee, alcohol, cold cuts, etc., when in fact it was the opposite. They made fun of ME for being paranoid, when I never said a word about what they were doing!  A lot of people laughed at me for not having a sip of coffee or alcohol, even for the 2ww, but if it didn't hurt me not to have it, and there was even the tiniest potential at all for it to some harm, didn't I have a right to choose not to eat/drink it myself?!  

    I had one friend who had a feeling she was pregnant, so she drank A LOT during that two weeks before she found out because once she knew she was pregnant she'd feel too guilty.  Who did she think she was kidding?  Then she'd occasionally have a beer throughout the pregnancy.  When I was pregnant a few years after her, she would often give me a hard time for being too "uptight", and she'd point out how smart her son is, even given all she drank, and how she ate whatever she wanted and she was fine.  She'd tell me to have a glass of wine and relax.  Maybe she was lucky, or maybe he'd be even smarter, who knows?  One glass of wine here and there wouldn't outweigh the anxiety I would feel for having it, so why bother?   

    I think some people (not all) get defensive with facts that may not work in their favor because they've already decided that it's a small enough risk that they are willing to take, and it makes them feel bad when they hear someone is being even more careful.  Of course, there are risks associated with many things and you have to choose what you are willing to do. Some things aren't even proven to be harmful, but if I know there is a chance that something could potentially hurt and certainly not help, it's worth it (to me) to just forget about having it completely.   

    That being said, I can recognize that I can go a little overboard, but I only do it to myself, which I think is what Kar was getting at as well, when many people took offense to it.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    Thanks, Michelle - I don't know how many more ways I could say, "Everyone has the right to interpret and act on study conclusions for themselves."

    But, maybe you are right that it doesn't matter.   Your experientially based theory makes a lot of sense to me, and I never would have thought of that.  Sorry you could relate to what happened here.  I really appreciate your post. 

    ~kar
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from MM379. Show MM379's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    To add an ironic twist, my doc actually recommended adding a LITTLE more caffeine during migraines this pregnancy.  And that's not strange - I have two friends who both got similar advice during their recent pregnancies from docs in two other practices.  I am typically at 1 cup per day right now as I cut down, but I don't cut out completely.  I am a sufferer of frequent migraines normally - especially on the pill.  First pregnancy, zero migraines.  I was SOOO looking forward to that this time but have actually had a bunch of migraines this round (different symptoms, maybe girl?  gotta read into everything, right?).  Anyway, OB today actually recommended trying a second cup along with tylenol when I have one.  I'd still pretty much be under or right around the 300mg guideline that my practice uses for caffeine.  I'm still debating what I want to try/take, but I probably will give it a try b/c when you have a migraine, are trying to serve your clients/patients as a clinician, and running after a toddler, taking these things in moderation seems like a pretty reasonable idea.  
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from luckinlife. Show luckinlife's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    "But, if the control group has a m/c rate of 10% and the caffeine group has a m/c rate of 12%, 2% of the test group had a m/c due to caffeine (if the study is statistically sound)."

    Hi Kar.  Just want to bring up a point here about statistics (of course, anyone is free to do whatever they want in pregnancy with regard to caffeine, etoh and so forth).
    If I did a study that showed there was a breast cancer rate of 20% in those people who stand on their heads and a group that never stands on their head has a rate of 18% it doesn't mean that 2% of breast cancer in attributable to standing on one's head.  Caffeine studies and most studies in pregnancy may demonstrate a correlation stastically but does not prove cause and effect.  The only way to really demonstrate cause and effect is to take two groups, double blind patients and researchers, give different treatments and the see the outcome over time with an intention-to-treat anaylysis and making sure that the groups to begin with were not statiscally significantly different prior to the study (classic table one analysis).  The only reason why I post this is because it can be very difficult to interpret statistics.

    Unfortunately and fortunately at the same time, people are not willing to do these types of experiments on pregnant women.  So, I think that is a major reason why there is so much conflicting data.   I also think that is why there is a lot of variation from doctor to doctor.  Also some ob's may not know the latest literature.  (That is not bashing obs it is simply the facts).  A perfect example is the recommendation that heart rate should not go above 140.  This was long ago considered not a valid recommendation and yet many pregnant women are still hearing it. 

    I think that in the case of any woman on this board and nearly all women in general, it is safe to say that a miscarriage was not a result of any lifestyle issues or anything that they may have done wrong.  At least, that is how I feel.  How we all manage our risks is such a personal decision (and I know, Kar, you were not imposing your beliefs on anyone else).  I feel like I should not have to take responsibility for my infertility particularly when I see so many women get pregnant with much, much, much worse lifestyle choices than my own and I feel that a miscarriage is also not the responsibility of the woman who suffered it. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALF72. Show ALF72's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    In Response to Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?:
    [QUOTE]Happy Birthday Alf!
    Posted by luckinlife[/QUOTE]

    ??? Thanks, lil, but my birthday was in June!! Laughing
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from luckinlife. Show luckinlife's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    Alf, where did I read that???  I am losing it.  Well, Happy Belated Birthday! :)
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    lil, you're right about double blind studies and these are very likely to be substantially flawed.  On the other hand, imo there is enough data on it to assume there is some correlation even if the exact increase in risk cannot be determined.  That's how I interpret what's "out there" without a shred of implication that I think anyone else should see it the same way I do.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedFishBlueFish. Show RedFishBlueFish's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    My point was simply that this statement is dead wrong:

    But, if the control group has a m/c rate of 10% and the caffeine group has a m/c rate of 12%, 2% of the test group had a m/c due to caffeine (if the study is statistically sound). 

    It's a gross over-simplification of statistics, which luckinlife much more completely explained above. It's misleading to anyone else who might read the post and, not knowing much about statistics, assume it must be the correct way to interpret information.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    what about the paranthetical disclaimer of "if the study is statistically sound"?  I didn't say or remotely IMPLY any ARE actually statistically sound.   If someone can't process a disclaimer how is it my fault?

    I already said lil's post is correct and based on the assumption that they are NOT statistically sound studies which is a very good bet.

    Why all the negative inferences about every post I make?!

    What the heck?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from luckinlife. Show luckinlife's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    Kar, totally not trying to be inflammatory at all here.  Even if a study IS statsically sound the inference about the the change in incidence being due to one factor is not correct.  It is super complicated which is all I was trying to say and that even if the study was perfectly performed, one cannot conclude the difference was due to the caffeine.  

    Medical studies (and stastics in general)  can be be very hard to interpret correctly and even with a lot of training I am not the best at it.

    (I, by the way, am responding not because I care about the caffeine studies but just trying to clarify the stastical part) .

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    lil, I have no problem with you or your respectful responses and agree that there is more than meets the eye with every study.  But, there are ways to isolate variables (Design of Experiments) and I have to hope that at least some studies out there utilize those algorithms to an extent that allows reasonable conclusions to be drawn, otherwise, what's the point of studies at all?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Daisy75. Show Daisy75's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    "otherwise, what's the point of studies at all?"

    Having worked for the past 10 years in both lab research and in clinical research, my somewhat cynical response is "to get more grant money to do more studies."

    Beyond my cynicism, I think most researchers do the best analysis they can with the results that they get, but one thing that's always on my mind when talking about studies is "correlation does not equal causality."  It sounds like you've done quite a bit of research, and I'm not questioning your conclusions nor your actions as a result.  I also haven't read any of the literature on the topic, so I can't cite facts or figures.  I will say, though, that my initial thought, was if women who consume "moderate" amounts of caffeine, do, in fact, have a higher m/c rate, why is that?  Is it actually the caffeine?  Or is there some other common characteristic(s) among women who consume caffeine that is the actual cause?  Or maybe women who consume caffeine in combination with something else are more at-risk but we haven't pinpointed what the "something else" is, so caffeine is taking the full blame.

    I'm sure you've drawn your conclusions in an educated fashion, and, like I said, I'm not questioning your information or decisions, but I've found the discussion interesting and wanted to suggest that even if the findings across the board are statistically significant and valid, just because there's a correlation, it doesn't mean that caffeine is necessarily the cause.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    Hopefully, decent researchers understand that correlation does not equal causality, and I heartily agree.  My comments were based on the faith, probably super naive, that generally researchers design their studies to isolate variables under test and do their best with the correlation vs. causality issue that they can before publishing their findings for people to use.  
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from am1028. Show am1028's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    Unfortunately, in an environment of "publish or perish", many researchers try to get their papers out before someone else doing similar research does, so they can overlook things.  I say this having spent years working with researchers and clinicians and also being the daughter and wife of researchers.  It's sad, but it's true.  If you spend too much time trying to get the details exactly right, you're going to get scooped and that can be really bad for your career.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ModeratorJen. Show ModeratorJen's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    I've been following this thread with interest, and just wanted to commend you all for keeping what could have been a troll fest contained to a thoughtful and respectful discussion.  Such a great group here!

    Jen
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    If all the variables are isolated, causation v correlation is dealt with in a rational, mathematical manner, and politics and funding don't influence the procedure or interpretation of results, I'd assume you'd get a statistically sound study with reliable results and is why I qualified my example with "if it's a statistically sound study."  I honestly thought that disclaimer succinctly covered all that could go wrong behind the scenes of any study that would taint the results.

    Apparently, not only was I mistaken about it being a clear disclaimer it was judgmental to boot.  So, to anyone offended, I truly apologize. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from lemonmelon. Show lemonmelon's posts

    Re: 2ww caffeine and alcohol?

    Apology accepted.

    Just kidding, I have no idea what any of you are talking about. Did I happen into the PhD forum by mistake? I'll be over in the pregnancy forum discussing hemorrhoids if anyone wants me.
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share