March 2011

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALF72. Show ALF72's posts

    Re: March 2011

    In the good old days, I'm willing to be there weren't as many legal fees, if there were any at all.  
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Daisy75. Show Daisy75's posts

    Re: March 2011

    Also, in the "old days" most unwed teenage mothers were shipped off to secret locations to give birth in secret and forced to give up their children without any say in the matter.  That had to cut down on the legal issues considerably.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from kiwigal. Show kiwigal's posts

    Re: March 2011

    I find human trafficking abhorrent, too. I don't think I need you to explain to me the reasons why. I am pretty clear on that.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Lostgrouse. Show Lostgrouse's posts

    Re: March 2011

    I am curious as to your link between adoption and human trafficking.  That's where I lose you.  
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JMD62. Show JMD62's posts

    Re: March 2011

    I honestly didn't mean to ignite a firestorm here.  I posted not so much to address the questions/concerns of those who have decided that adoption is not for them -- more for those who might be curious to get a little more info.  (I think somewhere way back in this thread there were at least a couple of people who indicated they were thinking about adoption.)  I did not understand the adoption process very well when I first started looking into it, and had a lot of misinformation.  Hence my lengthy post.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALF72. Show ALF72's posts

    Re: March 2011

    In Response to Re: March 2011:
    [QUOTE]I am curious as to your link between adoption and human trafficking.  That's where I lose you.  
    Posted by Lostgrouse[/QUOTE]

    Once you start charging large amounts of money [be it for agency fees, legal fees, social service fees] to obtain a child, then, in my mind, you cross a line into human trafficking.  You clearly disagree. This is one of those things where it really ends up w/ an 'to each his own'. 

    This only refers to the current industry of adoption, not the process of adoption itself.  Not sure how I can clarify that.  There is a difference, to me, between adoption and the adoption industry.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Novembride. Show Novembride's posts

    Re: March 2011

    I am curious as to your link between adoption and human trafficking.  That's where I lose you.

    I think I can figure this one out, but would like to hear the link to fertility treatments.  I'm not being facecious.  I'm serious.  I've heard many arguements for and against fertility treatments, probably including ALF's philosophical/religious ones, but not this one.  If you think it would be too inflamatory ALF, I'll give you and anonymous email address.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Lostgrouse. Show Lostgrouse's posts

    Re: March 2011

    But doesn't human trafficking usually involve some sort of harm or abuse to the one who was trafficked?  That's where I disagree.  I could better understand the argument that adoption is buying the rights to a child, but I have a hard time crossing that line to human trafficking.  And simliar to Novembride, feel free to PM me if you would rather to avoid this discussion on the forum.  I like a good discussion.  
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALF72. Show ALF72's posts

    Re: March 2011

    Perhaps the use of the word 'trafficking' is what is causing problems.   I do not think that any child [either fully formed or in genetic material form] is being 'exploited' via either fertility treatment or adoption.  My focus is on the purchase aspect of it. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Novembride. Show Novembride's posts

    Re: March 2011

    I see.  That was the jump I could make to adoption but didn't see it outright with treatments.  Although... there is some level of exploitation inherent in the purchasing aspect, no?  A market being created and prices driven up, accessiblity of services to the wealthiest (or at least those willing and able to go into debt), advertising for egg donors in college newspapers, etc. 

    I was trying really hard not to jump in here.  I personally have no opinion on the subject one way or the other.  I begrudge no one his or her choice of having a family by any means that is agreeable to them.  (short of kidnapping, of course - that I begrudge)

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from am1028. Show am1028's posts

    Re: March 2011

    Again, I will assert that you are not purchasing the child.  You are paying for the services required to bring that child home safely to you. Similarly, when you birth a child you pay for the same - the services required to bring the child home safely to you (or your insurance does if you have it).  Neither one is a human purchase transaction.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALF72. Show ALF72's posts

    Re: March 2011

    We'll have to agree to disagree.

    Medical expenses related to your own care, when you deliver a child, and medical treatment that the child receives at it's birth are, to me, totally different. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Novembride. Show Novembride's posts

    Re: March 2011

    This discussion has really given me some new things to think about.  I'm glad everyone has been able to share without things getting out of control.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: March 2011

    But there's no serviceless way to adopt so what's the absolute (not PC) difference between paying for services to get a baby and paying for a baby?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsBride. Show BsBride's posts

    Re: March 2011

    In Response to Re: March 2011:
    [QUOTE]Whatever.  I have my opinions and I'm entitled to them.  You really don't want to hear my opinions on fertility treatments, which is why I don't share them on this forum. Lostgrouse, even if your post had appeared under mine, I'm sure people would have figured out that you would never be 'liking' one of my posts.  Perhaps you all missed my earlier post about my best friend and her sister being adopted.  I think the cost of adoption today is out of control.  There are legitimate fees, but when you get in the tens of thousands of dollars range, it really is hard to justify as legitimate expense, at least to me.
    Posted by ALF72[/QUOTE]

    Blame the lawyers for the high costs :)  You're a lawyer ALF, you know the crazy rates attorneys charge per hour, and how quickly the fees add up. I'm an attorney too, we bill at $225/hr, which is 'cheap'. A specialized adoption attorney could easily bill $300-$400/hour, and could bill many hours for the paperwork and court time. And that's just one aspect of adoption costs.

    PS ALF, go back and read your recent posts. They are almost always negative. This forum should be supportive, and you are often the opposite. Yes you have the right to say what you want, but just because you can, doesn't mean you should.


     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Novembride. Show Novembride's posts

    Re: March 2011

    Hope I didn't speak too soon...

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from am1028. Show am1028's posts

    Re: March 2011

    Kar, there are serviceless ways to adopt, you could go get a black market baby, or arrange a private adoption without the lawyers and caseworkers, etc.  However, if you did that, youmd risk the baby being taken back, youmd risk  the health and wellbeing of the child, etc.  But one could argue that if you don't get prenatal care and you birth yougr baby on your kitchen floor alone (no services), you would also be riskigng  those things.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from am1028. Show am1028's posts

    Re: March 2011

    Please pardon all the typos.  Posting from my phone, which does not allow editing on this board.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: March 2011

    But even on the black market you've paid the criminals to perform a service for you of providing a baby.

    I'm just saying it might be a totally non-PC way to say or view it, but you pay money, you get a baby.  Just like you go to a restaurant pay $$ and get food.  Of course, you're paying for the all the services involved from grocery shopping, menu planning, serving, cooking, cleaning, etc., but you get food.  People say, therefore, they paid for a dinner.  They don't say that they paid for the services involved in getting a dinner.  It's a wordy way of saying the same thing.  (And, yes, I get it falls a part a little in that food does cost the restaurant something, but it's a drop in the bucket of a restaurant bill, and, frankly, even if you didn't pay for the food the bill would more than cover the meal.)
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from lemonmelon. Show lemonmelon's posts

    Re: March 2011

    In Response to Re: March 2011:
    [QUOTE]I honestly didn't mean to ignite a firestorm here.  I posted not so much to address the questions/concerns of those who have decided that adoption is not for them -- more for those who might be curious to get a little more info.  (I think somewhere way back in this thread there were at least a couple of people who indicated they were thinking about adoption.)  I did not understand the adoption process very well when I first started looking into it, and had a lot of misinformation.  Hence my lengthy post.
    Posted by JMD62[/QUOTE]
    It was a great post. You're not responsible for any ensuing crazy.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from luckinlife. Show luckinlife's posts

    Re: March 2011

    I bought an egg.  There, I said it.
    Actually, I got a bargain - paid for one and got 23. 

    I couldn't have more love or appreciation for my donor.  She is definitely an angel to have done this for us. 

    If the birth mother was actually profitting from the adoption that would be problematic in my mind.  In no reputable situation is the birth mother profiting from the adoption.

    I once said to my sister that I thought it was so great that she was considering adopting b/c she can help a baby who cannot be cared for.  She quickly said there was nothing noble about this in her mind she just wanted a family. (There goes my thoughts of saving someone's unwanted eggs - j/k)

    I think that people who adopt older children are angels.  I went to China with an adoption agency and someone adopted a 9 year old.  Awesome!
    I wish to God I was the kind of beautiful person who does this!

    There are no guarantees with fertility treatments, donor or adoption.  I feel extremely blessed to have been able to afford DE and to live in a state where most insurances cover infertility.  I CANNOT imagine how difficult TTC would be if every failed cycle was coupled to a loss of thousands of dollars.  Talk about kicking someone when they are down.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from beniceboston. Show beniceboston's posts

    Re: March 2011

    Really? Like, seriously? Then why do they monitor the baby's heart rate during labor, or decide to give someone a c-section or use forceps/vacuum to get the baby out? Is it for the mother's safety alone that they do that? I don't think so....


    In Response to Re: March 2011:
    [QUOTE]We'll have to agree to disagree. Medical expenses related to your own care, when you deliver a child, and medical treatment that the child receives at it's birth are, to me , totally different. 
    Posted by ALF72[/QUOTE]
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from lemonmelon. Show lemonmelon's posts

    Re: March 2011

    I have no idea what this argument is about. Adopting a child is not like going to a restaurant. And you can't buy a baby -- it's illegal. If it was legal I would have done it years ago.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from GC1016. Show GC1016's posts

    Re: March 2011

    You know, I don't post here a lot, but I do occasionally check in on the TTC thread, as I found it so helpful while we were in that boat.  

    To me, the whole TTC thread was always about supporting one another in the sometimes painful, confusing and lengthy process of becoming a mom.  Whether it's about timing the whole BD thing or dealing with a miscarriage or heading to the RE or getting a BFP or exploring donor eggs or thinking about adoption, it's all about becoming a mom.  

    I get that there are philosophical differences and personal choices to be made, but ... come on.  There's a time and a place.  No one here is contemplating buying a baby, no matter how you phrase things or interpret adoption fees, the cost of fertility treatments, or the staggering bill you get from the hospital after giving birth.  Let's redirect.  

    And, JMD62, I read your post with interest.  Thanks for sharing.  
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALF72. Show ALF72's posts

    Re: March 2011

    In Response to Re: March 2011:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: March 2011 : Blame the lawyers for the high costs :)  You're a lawyer ALF, you know the crazy rates attorneys charge per hour, and how quickly the fees add up. I'm an attorney too, we bill at $225/hr, which is 'cheap'. A specialized adoption attorney could easily bill $300-$400/hour, and could bill many hours for the paperwork and court time. And that's just one aspect of adoption costs. PS ALF, go back and read your recent posts. They are almost always negative. This forum should be supportive, and you are often the opposite. Yes you have the right to say what you want, but just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
    Posted by BsBride[/QUOTE]

    Let me go cry in my beer since you find my posts negative.  I don't get to go home after a long day and enjoy my child like you do.  Does it make me sad some days? Yes.  So if my negativity bothers you, stick to the happy posts in pregnancy and infants/toddlers.  I'm going to continue posting whatever the heck I feel like. If you don't like it, drive on. And if you really really don't like it, simply hit the ignore button.
     
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