"KESSEL IS ELITE"

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    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : You know duinne, it occurs to me that marco and bruins8 have both prevented any serious discussion about Kessel to occur on this board.  End.  None. Any critique on Kessel's game is met with total hyperbole. There is a LOT to the Kessel discussion, but it just simply never happens because one or both of those will come on and completely cloud the discussion with the same few comments about Kessel. Fast Great snap shot the 15 playoff goals As soon as any criticism of Kessel comes up, it's buried under thousands of comments just repeating the above 3 items - and the criticism is not discussed and almost always outright ignored. Can't have a serious discussion about Kessel.  Just can't. CLEARLY an issue about him showing up for a big game, but NO discussion, just over reaction.  How much clearer can it be - 1 assist in 7 games vs. Bruins? The lazy play - I was shocked at the game - honestly - when he was easily 15 feet from the bench in a line change and Ryder skated right past him. CLEARLY Kessel has immense talent and isn't using all of it.  CLEARLY. Yet any criticism of his lack of physical game is immediately greeted with "you don't expect a scorer like him to drop the gloves" - and of course nobody expects that. And I've STARTED to discuss this in the past, yet it never goes anywhere because it gets muffled by these grandiose and delusional opinions on Kessel. "Kessel will be 3rd in the league in scoring behind Ovie and Crosby." Reality is not a friend of these people, right now Kessel is 44th in the league in scoring.  Actually, tied for 44th with 17 other guys. They'll NEVER talk about those stats, or any other stats other than; 7 goals 10 games 7 goals 10 games. How about this stat?  One of the guys Kessel is tied with is Nathan Horton - who ALSO has 7 goals in 10 games. But look closer.  SOG.  Kessel 34 - 34 Shots on Goal. Horton 17 SOG.  That's seventeen shots on goal.  HALF as many as Kessel.  HALF!!  Yet Horton has the same number of goals. Here's the stats http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/player/_/stat/points/sort/points Again, of course a serious discussion will never happen. A serious discussion will NEVER happen on this topic because Marco and Bruins8 make sure it will NEVER happen.
    Posted by BadHabitude[/QUOTE]

    I actually LOL'd when I saw that play with Ryder. Just too typical.

    The problem with the Kessel worshippers, I think, is that they don't understand that you can appreciate a player's strengths -- which Kessel has, no doubt about it -- and still see and critique his weaknesses.

    Kessel has a great shot and is a very good goal-scorer. That does not make him, in the words of the original post, an "elite" player. To me, an "elite" player is a Pavel Datsyuk or a Sidney Crosby, because A. they are just as dangerous without the puck as with it; and B. they play a complete game.

    But that's what separates the real fans of the game from the casual followers:  the latter see highlight reel goals and think they are the be-all and end-all; the former see what a player does the 90 percent of the time he's on the ice without possession of the puck.

    I liked Kessel when he was in Boston; I wish he would have stayed, taken a cap-friendly salary (as Krejci did), ridden shotgun with Savvy, and helped the Bruins win the Cup. Unfortunately, he wanted more money (and got it), and from reports, didn't like playing in a system that emphasizes defensive responsibility. Savard, who had been seen as an all-offensive player, could and did change and adapt, but Kessel could not. Perhaps the difference is maturity.

    In the end, it's appearing that both sides got what they desired: the Bruins an offensively talented, coachable young player with great potential in Seguin; Kessel vast amounts of money and the freedom to play a wide-open game and get on the highlight reel for NHL on the Fly.
     
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    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : I actually LOL'd when I saw that play with Ryder. Just too typical. The problem with the Kessel worshippers, I think, is that they don't understand that you can appreciate a player's strengths -- which Kessel has, no doubt about it -- and still see and critique his weaknesses. Kessel has a great shot and is a very good goal-scorer. That does not make him, in the words of the original post, an "elite" player. To me, an "elite" player is a Pavel Datsyuk or a Sidney Crosby, because A. they are just as dangerous without the puck as with it; and B. they play a complete game. But that's what separates the real fans of the game from the casual followers:  the latter see highlight reel goals and think they are the be-all and end-all; the former see what a player does the 90 percent of the time he's on the ice without possession of the puck. I liked Kessel when he was in Boston; I wish he would have stayed, taken a cap-friendly salary (as Krejci did), ridden shotgun with Savvy, and helped the Bruins win the Cup. Unfortunately, he wanted more money (and got it), and from reports, didn't like playing in a system that emphasizes defensive responsibility. Savard, who had been seen as an all-offensive player, could and did change and adapt, but Kessel could not. Perhaps the difference is maturity. In the end, it's appearing that both sides got what they desired: the Bruins an offensively talented, coachable young player with great potential in Seguin; Kessel vast amounts of money and the freedom to play a wide-open game and get on the highlight reel for NHL on the Fly.
    Posted by duinne[/QUOTE]

    Didn't like Kessel or Thornton because they were good, but both could be soooo much better, and Kessel the most aggregious example of that.

    Kessel - so much talent and he could easily be soooo much better - easily.  Just by diversifying his game just a little - A LITTLE.  Stickhandle into traffic, just every once in a while.

    Actually, most amazing to me was that he started the year so strong doing what I thought he should do - and I got worried about his career taking off.  Then - boom!  Plays the Bruins and goes right back to his old self.

     
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    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"



                           INSANITY
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : Duinne i am glad i amuse you, u can't get enough of me huh! trust me that's as much of me ur ever gonna get! Why would u care about my business? ur not making any money from ir are u? Here's a lesson for u duinne something they do not teach at nun school, always be humble u never kno who u might be talking too, and always be respectful even if u do not agree with someone. that is what people look at more then anything else, Make people trust u as instantly as possible.This is what communication is all about words are nothing actions are! communication skills, once again a 13 yr old can understand it but u cannot. Little girl, tomboy whatever! u don't agree with me then don't use my writing forum skills or lack thereof to gain some sort of superior advantage in the hopes of  achieving some success over a "friendly" discussion. anyhow duinne here i am talk on phone doing business and writing at the same time- only in america! did u get that dirty duinne ! see that is not respectful!
    Posted by marco1001[/QUOTE]

    That sounds like reasonable advice, so why aren't you following it here?

    Your posting style tells 'us' (your prospective readers) that we aren't worth the extra 10 seconds it takes to use punctuation and capital letters.  Is it any wonder you encounter hostility when your actions are the lexical equivalent of talking on a cell phone while we are trying to hold a conversation with you?

    You seem to be getting better about it, and that is good, but given the tone of this thread it might be too late here.  It might be more useful for everyone if you let this drop, and next time Kessel comes up (and you can bet it will!) start over on a better foot.

    Peace.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : You know duinne, it occurs to me that marco and bruins8 have both prevented any serious discussion about Kessel to occur on this board.  End.  None. Any critique on Kessel's game is met with total hyperbole. There is a LOT to the Kessel discussion, but it just simply never happens because one or both of those will come on and completely cloud the discussion with the same few comments about Kessel. Fast Great snap shot the 15 playoff goals As soon as any criticism of Kessel comes up, it's buried under thousands of comments just repeating the above 3 items - and the criticism is not discussed and almost always outright ignored. Can't have a serious discussion about Kessel.  Just can't. CLEARLY an issue about him showing up for a big game, but NO discussion, just over reaction.  How much clearer can it be - 1 assist in 7 games vs. Bruins? The lazy play - I was shocked at the game - honestly - when he was easily 15 feet from the bench in a line change and Ryder skated right past him. CLEARLY Kessel has immense talent and isn't using all of it.  CLEARLY. Yet any criticism of his lack of physical game is immediately greeted with "you don't expect a scorer like him to drop the gloves" - and of course nobody expects that. And I've STARTED to discuss this in the past, yet it never goes anywhere because it gets muffled by these grandiose and delusional opinions on Kessel. "Kessel will be 3rd in the league in scoring behind Ovie and Crosby." Reality is not a friend of these people, right now Kessel is 44th in the league in scoring.  Actually, tied for 44th with 17 other guys. They'll NEVER talk about those stats, or any other stats other than; 7 goals 10 games 7 goals 10 games. How about this stat?  One of the guys Kessel is tied with is Nathan Horton - who ALSO has 7 goals in 10 games. But look closer.  SOG.  Kessel 34 - 34 Shots on Goal. Horton 17 SOG.  That's seventeen shots on goal.  HALF as many as Kessel.  HALF!!  Yet Horton has the same number of goals. Here's the stats http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/player/_/stat/points/sort/points Again, of course a serious discussion will never happen. A serious discussion will NEVER happen on this topic because Marco and Bruins8 make sure it will NEVER happen.
    Posted by BadHabitude[/QUOTE]
    Yet the Kessel supporters actually like to claim Phil's high number of shots(last game against the Bruins actually) shows how talented he is.I think shooting from anywhere on the ice rather than driving hard to the net shows Phil's lack of commitment to getting better.Half the shots he took against TT had no realistic chance of going in so it's really not much different than any other turnover.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from marco1001. Show marco1001's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : That sounds like reasonable advice, so why aren't you following it here? Your posting style tells 'us' (your prospective readers) that we aren't worth the extra 10 seconds it takes to use punctuation and capital letters.  Is it any wonder you encounter hostility when your actions are the lexical equivalent of talking on a cell phone while we are trying to hold a conversation with you? You seem to be getting better about it, and that is good, but given the tone of this thread it might be too late here.  It might be more useful for everyone if you let this drop, and next time Kessel comes up (and you can bet it will!) start over on a better foot. Peace.
    Posted by DrCC[/QUOTE]

    sorry u feel that inseure , dr cc ur worth evry penny, that is a drastic way of looking at it. if uas i said a 13 yr old could understand it but u cannot. Many have also commented on bruins8 writing and i undeerstand it perfectly well. NOw, do u really think that this would even be an issue if these posters were in agreement .

    That's what it's all about,. This isn't a college classroom where we are being evaluated. this is just plain hobby fun and it's more then an xtra 10 seconds.
     
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    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    You seem to have missed the point.  It's not about whether it can be understood - it is about whether you are showing others enough respect to take the time to spell out your message.

    And yes, there would be plenty of this conversation going on if people agreed with you as well.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : sorry u feel that inseure , dr cc ur worth evry penny, that is a drastic way of looking at it. if uas i said a 13 yr old could understand it but u cannot. Many have also commented on bruins8 writing and i undeerstand it perfectly well. NOw, do u really think that this would even be an issue if these posters were in agreement . That's what it's all about,. This isn't a college classroom where we are being evaluated. this is just plain hobby fun and it's more then an xtra 10 seconds.
    Posted by marco1001[/QUOTE]
    Just grow up you ignoramus.A personal verbal attack on duinne because she questions your writing skills shows your mentality(heavy stress on mental).The problem isn't about disagreeing as much as it's about you being an idiot about it.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeguinMyTime. Show SeguinMyTime's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : sorry u feel that inseure , dr cc ur worth evry penny, that is a drastic way of looking at it. if uas i said a 13 yr old could understand it but u cannot. Many have also commented on bruins8 writing and i undeerstand it perfectly well. NOw, do u really think that this would even be an issue if these posters were in agreement . That's what it's all about,. This isn't a college classroom where we are being evaluated. this is just plain hobby fun and it's more then an xtra 10 seconds.
    Posted by marco1001[/QUOTE]

    I cant even type that bad Marco. Its not an extra ten seconds and perhaps the reason 13 year olds understand it is that you are in fact 13. Ahh this all makes perfect sense now.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from CelticBear68. Show CelticBear68's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    is it possible to ignore an entire thread?   Just when I think this one has gone away, the vocal pro-Kess contigent give a bump for Phil.

    Phil didnt want to stay here.  End stop.

    He held a gun to PC's head for more money, and in the cap era, you cant afford to be held hostage by one guy looking to cash in.

    Money was important to Phil - good for him, I hope he and his millions are happy in T-Dot.

    Other players value WINNING more, and WANT to play HERE, and take less money to do so - think Krejci, Savvy,Rex and Thomas (and if you dont think TT couldnt have got more than 5M per after his Vezina win, I think you're mistaken).  

    At any rate, to the owner/operator/proprietor of the "5th percentile company", let me ask a question:

    WHY would you, as a business owner, want to keep an employee who CLEARLY stated he DID NOT want to work for you, but he would reluctantly stay if you gave him a fat raise?
    Riddle me that....
     
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    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]is it possible to ignore an entire thread?   Just when I think this one has gone away, the vocal pro-Kess contigent give a bump for Phil. Phil didnt want to stay here.  End stop. He held a gun to PC's head for more money, and in the cap era, you cant afford to be held hostage by one guy looking to cash in. Money was important to Phil - good for him, I hope he and his millions are happy in T-Dot. Other players value WINNING more, and WANT to play HERE, and take less money to do so - think Krejci, Savvy,Rex and Thomas (and if you dont think TT couldnt have got more than 5M per after his Vezina win, I think you're mistaken).   At any rate, to the owner/operator/proprietor of the "5th percentile company", let me ask a question: WHY would you, as a business owner, want to keep an employee who CLEARLY stated he DID NOT want to work for you, but he would reluctantly stay if you gave him a fat raise? Riddle me that....
    Posted by CelticBear68[/QUOTE]

    u see ur approach is very professional ! this is the way we gain at the very least some hope of having a smart talk.

    here is what i would like u to understand- first off let me say that when i was 16 or so i too thought that the bruins made all the right decisions and could do no wrong but when u wisen up u see things the way they are.

    this was never about $ , it was about treatment. Let me elaborate. Kessel was well according to the gossip a non-conformist; thus mgmt did not make him priority . CJ and kessel were not on good terms , pc chose cj over kesse- that's my problem. cj has proven nothing apart from being fired everywhere he was, comes here and he's given all this leverage. Is this what the bruins had become we make gods out of mediocre coaches. Kessel never said he did not wanna play here but when he's hearing that he'e in the middle of trades i.e kaberle tradeand on topm of that theyre signing krejci then how could he react , how would u react?
    kessel was never priority and should have been. Very simply put many were saying that sturm , ryder would replce him so did the bruins mgmt , i never did , i knew we were in trouble, that the offence would suffer greatly, that we ahd no morea first elite line and knew that no ryder sturm and for goodness sake bitz would replace him. sSomefelt bitz would score 20 u gotta be kidding me!

    just know that mgmt got away with this one and i would like to kno if pc would do this trade again, if he would gamble as he did. I took stats in university but calculating the stat that we would get a number 2 is harder and many givens would have to be asserted. I can assure u though taht teh chances were quite slim and pc got lucky.

    as far as as thomas i will answer u straight- NO i do not believe any other team would give him 5 m in fact i am quite confident of it. TT is playing ver well better then i expected jyust hope he brings it in the palyoffs but the fact is if u listened to most hockey people even after his vezina he was ranked about 15 or so best goalie. I truly hope he plays in the palyoffs and wins the big games and ultimately a cup. Rask has many yrs so i would love to see tt do it.

    i do not have a fortune 500 business but my income is in the top 5% and i have done it completely on my own . I will not get into it but i will tell u that the adversity i faced, safe to say large majority have not. enough with that.
    If i have a great employee , no i do not get rid of him, i look at him as an aset especially if he is young and has many years to go.  I look at my managers to work with him and hopefully mold him to company criteria. Not easy i agree but it does happen but here is where the difference lies.In my business it is easier to find a star then it is in sports team.
     
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    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : u see ur approach is very professional ! this is the way we gain at the very least some hope of having a smart talk. here is what i would like u to understand- first off let me say that when i was 16 or so i too thought that the bruins made all the right decisions and could do no wrong but when u wisen up u see things the way they are. this was never about $ , it was about treatment. Let me elaborate. Kessel was well according to the gossip a non-conformist; thus mgmt did not make him priority . CJ and kessel were not on good terms , pc chose cj over kesse- that's my problem. cj has proven nothing apart from being fired everywhere he was, comes here and he's given all this leverage. Is this what the bruins had become we make gods out of mediocre coaches. Kessel never said he did not wanna play here but when he's hearing that he'e in the middle of trades i.e kaberle tradeand on topm of that theyre signing krejci then how could he react , how would u react? kessel was never priority and should have been. Very simply put many were saying that sturm , ryder would replce him so did the bruins mgmt , i never did , i knew we were in trouble, that the offence would suffer greatly, that we ahd no morea first elite line and knew that no ryder sturm and for goodness sake bitz would replace him. sSomefelt bitz would score 20 u gotta be kidding me! just know that mgmt got away with this one and i would like to kno if pc would do this trade again, if he would gamble as he did. I took stats in university but calculating the stat that we would get a number 2 is harder and many givens would have to be asserted. I can assure u though taht teh chances were quite slim and pc got lucky. as far as as thomas i will answer u straight- NO i do not believe any other team would give him 5 m in fact i am quite confident of it. TT is playing ver well better then i expected jyust hope he brings it in the palyoffs but the fact is if u listened to most hockey people even after his vezina he was ranked about 15 or so best goalie. I truly hope he plays in the palyoffs and wins the big games and ultimately a cup. Rask has many yrs so i would love to see tt do it. i do not have a fortune 500 business but my income is in the top 5% and i have done it completely on my own . I will not get into it but i will tell u that the adversity i faced, safe to say large majority have not. enough with that. If i have a great employee , no i do not get rid of him, i look at him as an aset especially if he is young and has many years to go.  I look at my managers to work with him and hopefully mold him to company criteria. Not easy i agree but it does happen but here is where the difference lies.In my business it is easier to find a star then it is in sports team.
    Posted by marco1001[/QUOTE]



    I think that you are missing the "big picture", but perhaps that's my fault for not elaborating more, or expanding upon my original analogy.  So, let me take it a step further...

    Your "employee" doesnt like your "manager", or how that manager conducts business in his department, is grossly unhappy with it, in fact and absolutely refuses to "buy-in" to it.  He's a total prima-donna, a maverick, and that's maybe creating some turbulence amongs the other 19 or so other employees in that department.  It's becoming disruptive, and hurting productivity and staff morale.

    Beyond that, IF you cave in and give the one guy the money he is demanding, doing so will mean that you will likely have to let 2 other highly trained and skilled employee's walk away, as you will simply be unable to pay them what they are worth, or what they can make working for your competitors.  Think about that, and what you as a business owner would really, truly do in such a circumstance.  

    I would question the wisdom of a business owner giving that employee what (s)he wanted, in the above scenario - wouldnt you agree?  It doesnt make much sense it's spelled out this way, does it...and at the end of the day, the Boston Bruins are first and foremost a business, make no mistake. 

    So, it's goodbye phil - it's nothing personal, it's just business.  Goodbye, and best of luck with your future endeavors.  Don't let the door hit your @.$s on the way out.  Buh-Bye, mmmmmkay.

    ------------------------------------------------

    As a quick aside, and just as an FYI for you, Marco, for the record, I do NOT support all the Bruin's front office decisions, but that doesn't mean I stop supporting the team on the ice.  

    Hey, I didn't like a lot Dubya Bush's decisions, either...but I still support the troops.

    In both cases, it IS possible to disagree with the people making the decisions at the same time that you are supporting the men in uniform....




     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    A bit off topic but Thomas has the 11th highest cap hit for a goalie:
    http://www.capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=CAP_HIT&position=G&max_results=25
    That's also less than $1M above #15, so it sounds like his cap hit isn't too far off from what the hockey people you listened to suggested. 

    Bitz?  Scoring 20?  Any chance it was StanleyCupToTheBruins#### that said that?  If so, please don't hold management accountable for his statements, even if he had sent them his resume.

    The problem with your argument on Kessel is the same thing that comes up every time he's discussed.  How do you know what priority Kessel was given?  How do you know Julien was chosen over him?  All we know is that he ended up traded.  What contracts he was offerered, when they were offered, what discussions his agent had with PC before the end of the season, what non-management people like Whitesides had to say about him, what exit interviews with other players said, what discussions Chiarelli may have had directly with Kessel, all of these things, we do not know.

    You are free to believe as you wish, but there will be many people who will never agree with you without proof; and that proof isn't public domain, so the who argument is pointless.

    A far more fruitfull option is to look at how the current team is playing, and discuss the strengths/weaknesses apparent there, and toss about ideas about how the team can get better.
     
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    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]A bit off topic but Thomas has the 11th highest cap hit for a goalie: http://www.capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=CAP_HIT&position=G&max_results=25 That's also less than $1M above #15, so it sounds like his cap hit isn't too far off from what the hockey people you listened to suggested.  Bitz?  Scoring 20?  Any chance it was StanleyCupToTheBruins#### that said that?  If so, please don't hold management accountable for his statements, even if he had sent them his resume. The problem with your argument on Kessel is the same thing that comes up every time he's discussed.  How do you know what priority Kessel was given?  How do you know Julien was chosen over him?  All we know is that he ended up traded.  What contracts he was offerered, when they were offered, what discussions his agent had with PC before the end of the season, what non-management people like Whitesides had to say about him, what exit interviews with other players said, what discussions Chiarelli may have had directly with Kessel, all of these things, we do not know. You are free to believe as you wish, but there will be many people who will never agree with you without proof; and that proof isn't public domain, so the who argument is pointless. A far more fruitfull option is to look at how the current team is playing, and discuss the strengths/weaknesses apparent there, and toss about ideas about how the team can get better.
    Posted by DrCC[/QUOTE]
    I do know for sure that Kessel said he wouldn't play for Krejci-like dollars and as soon as I heard him say that,I knew(and was glad)that he would be traded soon after.I am glad we kept DK instead.
     
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    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : I do know for sure that Kessel said he wouldn't play for Krejci-like dollars and as soon as I heard him say that,I knew(and was glad)that he would be traded soon after.I am glad we kept DK instead.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]
    I also remember him laughing at the suggestion that he was seeking (insert name here, Corey Perry?) money; and that money was about $5M.  I had assumed it meant he would sign for less.  Apparently not.

    I'm sure it will be pointed out as being "just words" but here is what Julien had to say about his relations with Kessel, after the trade:

    “He wasn’t any different than a lot of players you deal with at times,’’ Julien said. “You never have smooth relationships because there are challenges along the way. What you do as a coach is convince those guys and make them understand and believe that this is what you need to do to be the best team possible. This is what you need to do to be the best player possible as well. We all know that Phil has grown up as a superstar player. Those guys will also be a bit of a bigger challenge. But I can tell you honestly that last year there were no issues as far as him resisting. And there shouldn’t have been, because his season proved that he was very successful.’’
     
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    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : I think that you are missing the "big picture", but perhaps that's my fault for not elaborating more, or expanding upon my original analogy.  So, let me take it a step further... Your "employee" doesnt like your "manager", or how that manager conducts business in his department, is grossly unhappy with it, in fact and absolutely refuses to "buy-in" to it.  He's a total prima-donna, a maverick, and that's maybe creating some turbulence amongs the other 19 or so other employees in that department.  It's becoming disruptive, and hurting productivity and staff morale. Beyond that, IF you cave in and give the one guy the money he is demanding, doing so will mean that you will likely have to let 2 other highly trained and skilled employee's walk away, as you will simply be unable to pay them what they are worth, or what they can make working for your competitors.  Think about that, and what you as a business owner would really, truly do in such a circumstance.   I would question the wisdom of a business owner giving that employee what (s)he wanted, in the above scenario - wouldnt you agree?  It doesnt make much sense it's spelled out this way, does it...and at the end of the day, the Boston Bruins are first and foremost a business, make no mistake.  So, it's goodbye phil - it's nothing personal, it's just business.  Goodbye, and best of luck with your future endeavors.  Don't let the door hit your @.$s on the way out.  Buh-Bye, mmmmmkay. ------------------------------------------------ As a quick aside, and just as an FYI for you, Marco, for the record, I do NOT support all the Bruin's front office decisions, but that doesn't mean I stop supporting the team on the ice.   Hey, I didn't like a lot Dubya Bush's decisions, either...but I still support the troops. In both cases, it IS possible to disagree with the people making the decisions at the same time that you are supporting the men in uniform....
    Posted by CelticBear68[/QUOTE]

    hit the nail right on the head.  Particularly since this is not just some kid that wanders in off the street.  It's an elite professional, much like hiring a contractor for a project, you can't take time to "mold" him.  It's not juniors where the coach tries to mentor players.  No, it's pro sports and the player has to be responsible enough for his health, well being and fitness.  You wouldn't hire an 18 yr old professional stone mason to build a paver walkway for you - who is supposed to be elite and doing it from since he could walk - and then have to chase him to do the job right.  You fire him.  Let him do his on the job training with someone else.
    Because if you pay him for on the job training simply to behave as a professional - you are losing money.
    And the Bruins lost money on him in the Carolina series.  If the Phil Kesel that showed up at the beginning of this season showed up for that Carolina series - 10 lbs lighter, fitter and responsible, we would have won that series no question in my mind.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from marco1001. Show marco1001's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    good points, i still support the team but, it goes back to an any job if we do good maybe we get recognition but if u do bad u defitely get chit.

    Celticbear- i think u need to agree that the sports business fit into a different realm of business. Whether or not we like it in pro sports the palyers are above the coach. Coaches are replaceable stars are not. I think ur example although ver well thought of is not the same as what actually transpired but i defintely kno where ur going with it. U see kessel was drafted here, was he a primadonna, don't think so, was he harder to handle very possible yes but my managers are tarined to get the job done and done well to exceed client expectationns and it is my manager to "manage " the peolple to deal with their personalities b/c in the end the COMPANY benefits from it. In an ideal world evryone would have the greatest work etchic, be very obdedient, and be team players but it's not like that and uit cannot be always like that and if u do come across a young kid , who may very well lack maturity, then teach him don't abandon ship  b/c as i said it's in ur best interest. There is no doubt that bruins mgmt underrated the importance of kessel in this team, It's a business and in business it's all about winning nothing else, bruins have failed so far in this regard .

    Now, i have to tell u that this cap reason is a very lame excuse taht no even marginal business owner would ever accept. They mismanaged the cap that's mgmt problem , not the player. but it;s more then that because remember . it's quite simple when u WANT something done u get it done.
    kessel wann't priority and they were wrong and last yr was a clear indication of that,

    On the other hand, the bruins got lucky in gettin a profile player like seguin and that is a major consolation but pc wasn't counting on that . There is no other that gave me the same xcitement as hall and seguin and i did admit , i wanted Hall more. and he went first as i said all along never had a doubt.


    In conclusion, when u have a yong star albeit a "hotshot" it's the men of experience to keep him and do it for none other then themselves.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from marco1001. Show marco1001's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]A bit off topic but Thomas has the 11th highest cap hit for a goalie: http://www.capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=CAP_HIT&position=G&max_results=25 That's also less than $1M above #15, so it sounds like his cap hit isn't too far off from what the hockey people you listened to suggested.  Bitz?  Scoring 20?  Any chance it was StanleyCupToTheBruins#### that said that?  If so, please don't hold management accountable for his statements, even if he had sent them his resume. The problem with your argument on Kessel is the same thing that comes up every time he's discussed.  How do you know what priority Kessel was given?  How do you know Julien was chosen over him?  All we know is that he ended up traded.  What contracts he was offerered, when they were offered, what discussions his agent had with PC before the end of the season, what non-management people like Whitesides had to say about him, what exit interviews with other players said, what discussions Chiarelli may have had directly with Kessel, all of these things, we do not know. You are free to believe as you wish, but there will be many people who will never agree with you without proof; and that proof isn't public domain, so the who argument is pointless. A far more fruitfull option is to look at how the current team is playing, and discuss the strengths/weaknesses apparent there, and toss about ideas about how the team can get better.
    Posted by DrCC[/QUOTE]

    Chiarelli on nesn said he let the talks with kessel get to a point of no return. if kessel wanted to getv traded all he had to do was say it.

    look this mgmt has made many mistakes, magnitude of these mistake that in my business i do not get away with and they have in a much more lucrative aspect of business.  Now, they get horton, finally a move i like, seguin looks good but that wasn't calculated at all. The point is mgmt , the men of experience do not learn in the nhl , it's not a learning ground for them , it can still be for players because some come into the league at such a young age and asking all of tehm to be mature beyond their yrs is ludicrous.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from marco1001. Show marco1001's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : I also remember him laughing at the suggestion that he was seeking (insert name here, Corey Perry?) money; and that money was about $5M.  I had assumed it meant he would sign for less.  Apparently not. I'm sure it will be pointed out as being "just words" but here is what Julien had to say about his relations with Kessel, after the trade : “He wasn’t any different than a lot of players you deal with at times,’’ Julien said. “You never have smooth relationships because there are challenges along the way. What you do as a coach is convince those guys and make them understand and believe that this is what you need to do to be the best team possible. This is what you need to do to be the best player possible as well. We all know that Phil has grown up as a superstar player. Those guys will also be a bit of a bigger challenge. But I can tell you honestly that last year there were no issues as far as him resisting. And there shouldn’t have been, because his season proved that he was very successful.’’
    Posted by DrCC[/QUOTE]

    oh sure julien it wan't personal that's why u benched him in the playoffs against habs. there are amny more including ryder who sould have been healthy scratches last year and u never did Why? b/c he's ur pet is he not.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeguinMyTime. Show SeguinMyTime's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : oh sure julien it wan't personal that's why u benched him in the playoffs against habs. there are amny more including ryder who sould have been healthy scratches last year and u never did Why? b/c he's ur pet is he not.
    Posted by marco1001[/QUOTE]


    Kind of struggling not to agree here. I never understood Juliens Pet mentality. But I do remember Kessel wasnt doing ANYTHING defensively that series and shoulda rode the pine. But you make a good point about how Ryder never got benched last year.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : Chiarelli on nesn said he let the talks with kessel get to a point of no return. if kessel wanted to getv traded all he had to do was say it. look this mgmt has made many mistakes, magnitude of these mistake that in my business i do not get away with and they have in a much more lucrative aspect of business.  Now, they get horton, finally a move i like, seguin looks good but that wasn't calculated at all. The point is mgmt , the men of experience do not learn in the nhl , it's not a learning ground for them , it can still be for players because some come into the league at such a young age and asking all of tehm to be mature beyond their yrs is ludicrous.
    Posted by marco1001[/QUOTE]

    The problem is that they look like mistakes from the outside after the fact.  For all we know, with the information Chiarelli had, he made the best decision possible.

    Now, if there were information he failed to get before making a decision, that would be another matter, but we never will know.  Given that he will now have to satisfactorily justify his decisions to Neely (who is certainly paying closer attention to hockey than Jacobs) we shall see how long he lasts.

    Horton is certainly looking good, isn't he?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : Kind of struggling not to agree here. I never understood Juliens Pet mentality. But I do remember Kessel wasnt doing ANYTHING defensively that series and shoulda rode the pine. But you make a good point about how Ryder never got benched last year.
    Posted by SeguinMyTime[/QUOTE]
    I've actually thought about this.  It makes me wish certain cap websites would do a better job reporting the cap situation for teams in previous years.  The Bruins have a cap overage penalty, so they used up the entire cap last year.  Without LTIR times, I can't confirm it, but it may be that calling up a replacement for Ryder would have put them in even worse of a position.

    He still could have been benched for Whitfield or Marchand though.  I'm not sure there would have been much point to that.  Not in the W/L column, at least.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from marco1001. Show marco1001's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]A bit off topic but Thomas has the 11th highest cap hit for a goalie: http://www.capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=CAP_HIT&position=G&max_results=25 That's also less than $1M above #15, so it sounds like his cap hit isn't too far off from what the hockey people you listened to suggested.  Bitz?  Scoring 20?  Any chance it was StanleyCupToTheBruins#### that said that?  If so, please don't hold management accountable for his statements, even if he had sent them his resume. The problem with your argument on Kessel is the same thing that comes up every time he's discussed.  How do you know what priority Kessel was given?  How do you know Julien was chosen over him?  All we know is that he ended up traded.  What contracts he was offerered, when they were offered, what discussions his agent had with PC before the end of the season, what non-management people like Whitesides had to say about him, what exit interviews with other players said, what discussions Chiarelli may have had directly with Kessel, all of these things, we do not know. You are free to believe as you wish, but there will be many people who will never agree with you without proof; and that proof isn't public domain, so the who argument is pointless. A far more fruitfull option is to look at how the current team is playing, and discuss the strengths/weaknesses apparent there, and toss about ideas about how the team can get better.
    Posted by DrCC[/QUOTE]

    the team has been just wonderful.I felt good about this team from the time they got Horton and i feel even better now but i must approach with caution.

    i have been a long time bruin follower and i mean maybe too much of a fan. i also  watched many games in enemy venues and u should see me , at thought at times they would all gang up to kill me. that was then this is now. I approach with caution b/c let's face it we have seen the bruins do well in reg season play only to break our hearts so now i have become cautious
    and defensive.


    This team can go all the way , i felt they were solid but now if Caron continues to produce and i do like what i see so far from him, and seguin impacts earlier then expected , this team can beat any other team and yes in the playoffs. I have not felt this at any point last year but now i do.

    are there any moves that would benefit us, of course. I like to see another gs , a guy like sharp, or a malone there are not too many choices though. i likeour dmen, would i like to see a puck moving dman, sure , but i am not a fan of kaberle and i do not think we can get one. One way we can get one is that toronto finishes last and we get adam larsson next yr, watch this kid!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from I-Like-Hockey. Show I-Like-Hockey's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : the team has been just wonderful.I felt good about this team from the time they got Horton and i feel even better now but i must approach with caution. i have been a long time bruin follower and i mean maybe too much of a fan. i also  watched many games in enemy venues and u should see me , at thought at times they would all gang up to kill me. that was then this is now. I approach with caution b/c let's face it we have seen the bruins do well in reg season play only to break our hearts so now i have become cautious and defensive. This team can go all the way , i felt they were solid but now if Caron continues to produce and i do like what i see so far from him, and seguin impacts earlier then expected , this team can beat any other team and yes in the playoffs. I have not felt this at any point last year but now i do. are there any moves that would benefit us, of course. I like to see another gs , a guy like sharp, or a malone there are not too many choices though. i likeour dmen, would i like to see a puck moving dman, sure , but i am not a fan of kaberle and i do not think we can get one. One way we can get one is that toronto finishes last and we get adam larsson next yr, watch this kid!
    Posted by marco1001[/QUOTE]

    This is your best post ever Marco. I agree but the odds of drafting a franchise dman first round are like 5x worse than a franchise forward. Thats why I support a deal involving that first and w/e for Yandle. The team looks amazing though and your right watch out for Caron in a year or two. He will score more goals than seguin I have feeling. I notice how he acts around the net, You cant teach that (unless your Mark Recchi :) this is definately a team to get excited about.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE"

    In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: "KESSEL IS ELITE" : oh sure julien it wan't personal that's why u benched him in the playoffs against habs. there are amny more including ryder who sould have been healthy scratches last year and u never did Why? b/c he's ur pet is he not.
    Posted by marco1001[/QUOTE]
    The ends justify the means.Kessel was motivated by the benching.That's what a good coach/manager does-get the best out of employees.
     
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