Bruin Material

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    Bruin Material


    "Joe Thornton, perhaps the San Jose Sharks most famous player, was traded to
    the Sharks on March 14, 2005. Since that date, he has not missed a single
    game with the Sharks, quite an amazing feat. This "Ironman" record was
    broken 398 games later."

      I know what Dupont is saying right now; "Yea, but he didn't get 400 straight games did he!? See! Told ya!"

       I am so glad this 'wuss', this 'soft' and 'heartless' point-a-game 'floater' isn't taking up valuable minutes on 'our team' anymore.
      In other words, you can insert any of the myriad wrong-headed and misguided defamations of Joe Thornton's character you want to - the likes of which are thrown around here so vociferously it makes one wonder who people are trying to convince and only adds to the eternal embarrassment of Bruins fans everywhere - you can hate Joe Thornton for whatever lame reason your lack of hockey acumen can dream up, but you can't say it's for a lack of work ethic or committment.

    To this end...

    I'm so glad Phil Kessel isn't scoring those meaningless and one-dimensional goals for the Bruins anymore. All that scoring really used to bother me.

    You used to read it here all the time....
    'I'd like to see what kinda numbers Dollar Phil puts up without Marc Savard' and 'guys that miss Training Camp never seem to get it going' and 'Ron Wilson's gonna hate this guy' and blah blah blah.
        Every obstacle and banana peel that could be placed in front of this kid has been and he's side-stepped every one. People - check that - Rationalization-hungry Bruins fans have tried to defame every aspect of Phil Kessel's game and character. And yet all he's done is skate - really fast - through adversity, scoring a ton of goals.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not being dumb and dewy-eyed here, lamenting the loss of these two Franchise players. What's the point? They're gone and they're certainly not crying about it. I am saying, criticize these guys for the right reasons. Otherwise you risk reading like some lazy Dupontonian stooge who can't think for himself, like some sloganeering idiot with no hockey acumen nor IQ,
     
    Though, perhaps i am being a bit dumb and dewy-eyed when I ask:  'If these guys aren't 'Bruins material', just who is? '



     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Bruin Material

    You know the best way to stay healthy in the NHL?  Don't get hit.  Don't throw hits.  Don't take the puck to the net.  Hide behind the net or on the half-boards where you can see people coming, and then, if you can't get rid of the puck fast enough, just let the guy coming toward you take it and get out of the way.  I'd never thought of that strategy until I saw The Problem exercise it to perfection.  Please, you're going to say that 'iron-man' streak is proof of what a gamer The Problem is?  And if you think it's only Bruins fans who see this, go read some of the Sharks press, some of the Sharks blogs, especially if they gag another playoff series away.  If you're hoping he'll be the one to bring your team wins, you'll see it too.

    What adversity has Phyllis faced this year?  Bruins fans say mean things about him?  Boo hooey hoo!  Looked to me like he put up a bunch of goals when he was fresh back from injury, then when the Leafs looked like they might have put together enough of a run to salvage their horrible start and maybe even think about chasing the playoffs, he disappeared for a month landing him firmly and publicly in his coach's doghouse.  Now that they're back to having nothing at stake, look who woke up.  I also wouldn't be surprised to find that Phaneuf threatened to eat his kidneys. I've seen nothing to shake my belief that Kessel would have been sucked into the same black cloud that has haunted the Bruins's offense all year rather kept it at bay.

    Calling either of these guys franchise players is a joke.  The Problem was franchise poison in Boston from his refusal to be accountable for his mistakes or non-performance (including the ridiculous bar fight incident) to his dismissive attitude to the clique of entitled but under-performing players he gathered around him.  Trying to build a team around him killed a decade of Bruins hockey if you include the time it's taking to restock the system they gutted trying to support him.  Kessel now has two 30+ goal seasons. For a player as one-dimensional and prone to give-aways as he is to be a 'franchise player,' he better be putting up 45+ every year.

    I don't think you're dumb or dewy-eyed.  I think you're looking at highlight reels and not at the whole impact of these players - who should have been cornerstones based on their talents - on the franchise.  And that makes me question whether you care more for the star players or the spoked-B.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Bruin Material

    And yet another Kessel n Thornton fanboy thread Yawn! Why would I waste my time to venture over to a Hab or Laffs discussion board ? I wouldn't ever!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Bruin Material

    In Response to Re: Bruin Material:
    You know the best way to stay healthy in the NHL?  Don't get hit.  Don't throw hits.  Don't take the puck to the net.  Hide behind the net or on the half-boards where you can see people coming, and then, if you can't get rid of the puck fast enough, just let the guy coming toward you take it and get out of the way.  I'd never thought of that strategy until I saw The Problem exercise it to perfection.  Please, you're going to say that 'iron-man' streak is proof of what a gamer The Problem is?  And if you think it's only Bruins fans who see this, go read some of the Sharks press, some of the Sharks blogs, especially if they gag another playoff series away.  If you're hoping he'll be the one to bring your team wins, you'll see it too. What adversity has Phyllis faced this year?  Bruins fans say mean things about him?  Boo hooey hoo!  Looked to me like he put up a bunch of goals when he was fresh back from injury, then when the Leafs looked like they might have put together enough of a run to salvage their horrible start and maybe even think about chasing the playoffs, he disappeared for a month landing him firmly and publicly in his coach's doghouse.  Now that they're back to having nothing at stake, look who woke up.  I also wouldn't be surprised to find that Phaneuf threatened to eat his kidneys. I've seen nothing to shake my belief that Kessel would have been sucked into the same black cloud that has haunted the Bruins's offense all year rather kept it at bay. Calling either of these guys franchise players is a joke.  The Problem was franchise poison in Boston from his refusal to be accountable for his mistakes or non-performance (including the ridiculous bar fight incident) to his dismissive attitude to the clique of entitled but under-performing players he gathered around him.  Trying to build a team around him killed a decade of Bruins hockey if you include the time it's taking to restock the system they gutted trying to support him.  Kessel now has two 30+ goal seasons. For a player as one-dimensional and prone to give-aways as he is to be a 'franchise player,' he better be putting up 45+ every year. I don't think you're dumb or dewy-eyed.  I think you're looking at highlight reels and not at the whole impact of these players - who should have been cornerstones based on their talents - on the franchise.  And that makes me question whether you care more for the star players or the spoked-B.
    Posted by Bookboy007



    Thank you for tis as clearly, in kessel's case he cared far more greatly about the name on the back..
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Bruin Material


    The 2 most immensely talented guys I have ever known of, that I wouldn't like on my team.

    I think bad luck the Bruins got them.  Really bad luck MOC was in charge when the Bruins traded him, at least with Kessel they got just compensation.


     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Awry. Show Awry's posts

    Re: Bruin Material

    'Bookboy' Next time there is a 'star-player' on the Bruins, I'll let you know. Until then, I'll care about every player, every move, every spoke.
      I respect your perspective, here. I always have. But really, some of these things you say are beneath you.
       'The Problem'? Well as they say 'that'd be a good problem to have.' San Jose press? Who cares. The hockey media (Dupont especially) in this town, and in the USA in general, should tell you everything you need to know about how easy a 'beat' is Pro Hockey; how, when you don't really in-your-blood 'know' the game it is much easier to criticize a players perceived motivation than it is his actual skill set. In this way, a guy who would rather be a baseball writer can write about hockey, never be wrong nor assailable, collect a paycheque and go home. Hockey's full of fake knowledge these days, there is a maddening 'footballization' of the sport afoot, running rampant around the game and in between periods. All padded suits and old boys mangling the language, talking 'pee-kay' and 'tertiary coverage on the half-boards'.

      398 straight games in this League is huge, Bookboy and you know it. Don't try to belittle that. You're better than that. To not see that or to willfully denigrate that somehow, works my side of the argument; That while these two players (Thornton/Kessel) go about their business - and very well - for other teams, Bruins fans go to no end, inventing new ways to rationalize away their importance, their impact. There is no stat too arcane nor obscure that hasn't been used against these two players, to try and validate or explain away the embarrassment of their absence.
      This is what I'm saying, it is this very rationalizing and re-rationalizing that makes the greatest case FOR the importance and impact of Thornto and Kessel.
       Bookboy, you and the boys, will always be right about Joe Thornton until he wins the Cup, which is a safe and cosy socratic place to be. But what happens the day he and they do? We're only halfway into The Bruins 'killed decade'. The Thornton trade put this team back 10 years. And to those people who just wish people would' get over it', I say, people will probably stop talking about this trade when that 10 years is up or when the Bruins (or Sharks) win a Cup - whichever coems first.

       Phil Kessel has battled adversity his whole career and certainly since he had the great misfortune to be drafted into Claude Julien's 'system'. Yes. he slumped this year and wound up in Wilson's doghouse, but guess what they did? Stuck with him. Stuck by him and guess what happened? He came out of it. There is nothing to shake my opinion that Kessel would have - in spite of the 'system' and with arguably more talent - would have more goals for the Bruins this year. And what's more, for all the shots he takes (291, 4th in the League) with all those rebounds and subsequent chances, I daresay  all the other Bruin 'scorers' would have more goals too.
      This post is actually not about looking backward or lamenting the past, it's about the future. I'll restate the premise, or the question you beg Bookboy; if these guys weren't Franchise players for the Bruins. Then who is? Who are the Bruins looking for? 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Bruin Material


    re: Kessel leaving Boston.

    Stop and think about this, and you will have to agree, this is what took Kessel out of town.

    Forget all the other reasons.
    Burke would stop at nothing to get him.

    Do you think that Burke knows the language of the CBA?
    Of course he does.
    WHY DID HE GIVE COMPENSATION FOR A SIX MILLION DOLLAR PLAYER WHEN KESSEL IS GETTING 5 ODD MILLION ???????

    CONSIDER BURKE'S EXPERIENCE WITH THE PENNER RFA DEAL.

    Now, Burke sits down with PC and says he wants Kessel.

    PC says no, he will match ANY OFFER SHEET BURKE makes.

    The bidding starts and both GM's realize that the salary is out of control and NEITHER would be able to get him in under the cap without selling off the rest of their respective teams.

    NEITHER will budge, so what is the solution?

    So one of the other of them said, look, we'll pay him the 5 mil, but give me compensation for 6 mil.

    And they agreed.

    CJ, locker room hostility, selfish play - were minor factors - IF THEY WERE EVER FACTORS AT ALL.

    Additional proof - Burke wanted Phaneuf, started negotiating for him in November until he finally got him.

    Look at all the comments made by PC saying that they wanted to keep Kessel.
    Consider what they would have had to do if they signed Kessel for 6+ million.
    Consider that the CBA says ONE first round pick for 5 mil.
    Realize that Burke is fully aware of this.

    If you are the least bit rational, you will realize that somethig like this happened.

    Love Kessel?
    Hate Kessel?
    Doesn't matter.
    Burke would stop at nothing to get him.

    End of story.

    Bruins were not cheap,
    THEY MUST HAVE SHOWED BURKE THAT THEY WERE SERIOUS ABOUT GIVING KESSEL 6 MIL TO KEEP HIM.

    If this was not the case,
    someone explain why Burke would give 2 first rounders rather than the 1?



     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Awry. Show Awry's posts

    Re: Bruin Material

    ....because he sees something - or many somethings - in Kessel that Chiarelli doesn't?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Bruin Material

    Badhab,
    I think it was probably a combination of a lot of things, I think the bruins were willing to match an offer as long as it was to thier liking, I think burke knew he was in the division and that alone would drive the cost up, there would have been nothing preventing PC from doing a sign and trade and "dumping kessel on the west coast some where to pot his 40 goals" as a lot of people thought he would do.. Looking at the leafs, they are a rebuilding team? with no draft picks to build with this season in what is considered to be a good draft, maybe bruke felt that 3rd rounder would have as much value as next years first which is considered to be a down year (he must be assuming the team will improve).

    I think burke also as you stating having delt with the penner thing wanted to submit a fair offer to kessel with out over paying to block the bruins from matching, and not put pc in a spot where he would be forced to let him go as penner burke was with penner..
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Bruin Material

    In Response to Bruin Material:
    "Joe Thornton, perhaps the San Jose Sharks most famous player, was traded to the Sharks on March 14, 2005. Since that date, he has not missed a single game with the Sharks, quite an amazing feat. This "Ironman" record was broken 398 games later."   I know what Dupont is saying right now; "Yea, but he didn't get 400 straight games did he!? See! Told ya!"    I am so glad this 'wuss', this 'soft' and 'heartless' point-a-game 'floater' isn't taking up valuable minutes on 'our team' anymore.   In other words, you can insert any of the myriad wrong-headed and misguided defamations of Joe Thornton's character you want to - the likes of which are thrown around here so vociferously it makes one wonder who people are trying to convince and only adds to the eternal embarrassment of Bruins fans everywhere - you can hate Joe Thornton for whatever lame reason your lack of hockey acumen can dream up, but you can't say it's for a lack of work ethic or committment. To this end... I'm so glad Phil Kessel isn't scoring those meaningless and one-dimensional goals for the Bruins anymore. All that scoring really used to bother me. You used to read it here all the time.... 'I'd like to see what kinda numbers Dollar Phil puts up without Marc Savard' and 'guys that miss Training Camp never seem to get it going' and 'Ron Wilson's gonna hate this guy' and blah blah blah.     Every obstacle and banana peel that could be placed in front of this kid has been and he's side-stepped every one. People - check that - Rationalization-hungry Bruins fans have tried to defame every aspect of Phil Kessel's game and character. And yet all he's done is skate - really fast - through adversity, scoring a ton of goals. Don't get me wrong. I'm not being dumb and dewy-eyed here, lamenting the loss of these two Franchise players. What's the point? They're gone and they're certainly not crying about it. I am saying, criticize these guys for the right reasons. Otherwise you risk reading like some lazy Dupontonian stooge who can't think for himself, like some sloganeering idiot with no hockey acumen nor IQ,   Though, perhaps i am being a bit dumb and dewy-eyed when I ask:  'If these guys aren't 'Bruins material', just who is? '
    Posted by Awry


    Awry, you're an intelligent guy and I think I can enlighten you.

    You will probably not agree, but here is an explanation.

    Bruins fans have seen lunch pail hockey here for generations.  Dump the puck in the zone, mix it up in the corners and center it.  They are used to see physical players like Cam Neely.  Orr was very physical, gave out some huge hits and fought extremely well.

    1) So Thornton and Kessel 'haters' have that rap against them.

    There is an intangible about both of these players, it is a combination of their personality types, inteviewing style and playing style.  All 3 of these things combine to make it appear that they are not giving 100%.

    2) The Thornton and Kessel haters have that perception, it may or may not be a perception that is real, but it is there.

    The rap against these players are primarily intangibles so they can't be proofed out with stats and facts, but all stats and facts can be skewed to make a point.

    You cannot disagree with things that people perceive, and they do have that perception about Thornton and Kessel, rightly or wrongly, it is there.

    It is exactly like having an employee that does the job and does it really well, but their mannerisms say something different and they don't look like they are working hard.

    Fair?

    Maybe not, but perception is perception.


    The management issue is an entirely different one.  As I stated in an earlier post, Burke would stop at nothing to get Kessel and that is the primary reason why he is gone.
    The Thornton trade was a disaster.  MOC was an incompetent GM.  At the time I was thinking the way to have handled it was to have traded superstar for superstar, a trade that would have benefited both teams.  At the time Ovechkin was young, and I was thinking they should have made a move like that.  Or a Jagr or Forsberg at the time.

    But realize the management on both these players is an entirely different issue and the decisions were made for entirely different reasons.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Bruin Material

    In Response to Re: Bruin Material:
    ....because he sees something - or many somethings - in Kessel that Chiarelli doesn't?
    Posted by Awry


    I disagree.  I believe both GM's see the same thing in Kessel.  The question was at what price?  Burke could afford to blow up his team, it seems every name there was was thrown around except Kaberle.  PC on the other hand, had a pretty decent team the year before and was unwilling to dump the salary it would take had the bidding war continued.

    PC thought he had a team that could make a serious run without Kessel and was unwilling to lose a lot of guys to keep Phil.


    What if the situation were resversed?  I think Burke would have made the same move PC did.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Bruin Material

    Awry - first thing I have to say is that I'm glad I didn't call you an idiot or say anything particularly disrespectful.  This was a classy response, and one that shows you know a bit about rhetoric, so all due respect and thanks.

    I disagree about a few things, and probably always will.  So I'll answer your question, then disagree.  The Bruins want a guy with a high talent threshold who will do whatever it takes to win a Cup.  That's who they want to build around.  I think that's who you have to build around to be successful, because otherwise you invest huge amounts of your cap in a player who disappears when it matters most.  Think about the way Eric Staal played against the Bruins last year.  Think about the way Iginla played on Calgary's run to the finals.  Think about the way Forsberg played through pain and an injury that kept him out all season to be more than a point/game player in the playoffs.  I disagree with BadHab - it has nothing to do with 'lunchpail hockey' and everything to do with that commitment.  Sakic had it, Yzerman learned it, Messier beat it into people.  Neely beat it out of people.  It cost Lafontaine his career, but I respect him for it.  No one disputes The Problem's inherent talent or that Kessel has wheels and a great shot.  It's the lack of commitment that's maddening.  It's painfully obvious that The Problem could lead the league in scoring every year if he was willing to take the puck to the net consistently, but he chooses not to do it.  We know he chooses because every coach he's ever had - and he's killed a lot of them - has said "we need him to shoot more, we need him to go to the dirty areas."  He just...doesn't.  Same thing with Kessel.  Coach wants him to hit the weight room and get stronger so he can be a better player and he laughs it off.  Earlier coach asks him to be accountable for not picking up his defensive assignment and he says he'll even things out next shift - meaning he's an even player and not a difference maker.  See what I mean?  Talent alone is just pretty.

    I'm committed to referring to the man-child from St. Thomas as 'The Problem' because of his bitter post-trade interviews where he repeatedly said "I guess I was The Problem". I never, ever got the sense that he felt the Bruin failures during his tenure had anything to do with him, that he should have or could have done more given his talent and stature on the team.  I feel the way I do from watching him play, from watching him refuse to take the puck to the net, refuse to attack with speed, refuse to shoot the puck, retreat to the half boards, retreat behind the net, and constantly lose puck battles to smaller, quicker players like Koivu who anticipated his preferences, moved with alacrity, and stole the puck.  For me, the World Championship where he and Nash tried to rekindle their Swiss magic was the end.  He spent that whole tournament waiting to find Nash.  If the opponent sagged onto Nash, The Problem stood on the half boards doing nothing and eventually lost the puck.  At that point, I though the Bruins had to move him to improve on the ice, no matter how much talent he had.  He was too good at what he was comfortable doing to see why he needed to change to be a winner, and if SJ ever does win, I doubt it will be because of him though it might be in spite of him.

    I also can't say I find the consecutive games mark that interesting.  In fact, it seems to play to my argument about The Problem's unwillingness to sacrifice the body more than yours.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Bruin Material



    I'd be curious to see Joe's ice team in the Olympics, it sure seemed like he was on the ice more in the losses than he was in the winning games.


    Also, it is not as if the fans in other cities aren't having the same reactions.  Check out bloge salming for some pretty scathing stuff against Kessel.  Check the fan sites of both the Sharks and Leafs and you'll see familiar complaints.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from lostinbaltimore. Show lostinbaltimore's posts

    Re: Bruin Material

    Awry - maybe I'm being simple but in the Olympics the underachievers of the games were for Canada Joe Thornton(Broduer a close second) and for USA it was Phil Kessel. Now that might be a coincidence I don't know. Look I'm a big fan of Kessel's and wish we didn't trade him but I did agree with trading Thornton, I just didn't agree with what we got in return and just think your post is a little off.
     
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