CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kurako. Show Kurako's posts

    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    Where are all the haters today? This would be a good day for some humble pie dontcha think?

    Before long this board will be full of nothing but JJ-loving-sheep-Chiapet-apologists and there'll be no realists left! LOL!

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE:
    Would the Leafs have been picking first if they didn't sign Kessel? I guess we'll never know
    Posted by Kurako


    Actually, this is a really interesting idea - what impact did the Philistine have on the Laffs?  Last year, without Phil, and without a high-profile defensive group, the Laffs finished 23rd and picked 7th.  This year, with Phil, the Laffs finish 29th and would be in line to pick 2nd if they hadn't made the deal.  The only argument you could make in terms of his impact on the TEAM this year would be to say he kept them from finishing dead last.  How can that be!!  Well, look at last year's production vs. this year's and it's pretty clear.

    Last year, in Kessel's role and with basically the same supporting cast, Jason Blake scored 25 goals and 63 points - meaning he'll have outscored Kessel by about 8 points (though he played 8 more games).  Almost every other Toronto forward is performing at basically the same level as last year.  So he hasn't made anyone on the team better, but he did make Blake expendable.  Basically, he is a 5-8 goal upgrade on Jason Blake, but a total points wash and, while he's a decade younger, he eats up $1.5M more cap space per year.

    Burkists (Burkas?  =Guys who pull the wool up around their eyes to avoid acknowledging that Burke isn't Midas) will say this deal was made for 5 years, and by the second or third year, Kessel will be the schist.  This year doesn't matter.  Maybe.  But even if you don't care if this year was a foregoner, if you're a Leafs fan, assessing Kessel's impact beyond his raw goal total will make you a bit queasy.  Where's LRH?  LRH, can I offer you some Pepto?
     
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    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE:
    bruins should have " PULLED A PITTSBURGH" this year and got a nice pick. PULL A PITTSBURGH -- def. To lose on purpose, to tank. the act of losing on purpose to secure good lottery picks.
    Posted by TheRealHomer



    Pittsburg didn't tank on purpose to get crosby if that is what your implying, they completely lucked out, everyteam in the league had a shot at him..

    They went the normal route, win some cups, tail off, be bad for a while,rebuild, get good again..
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveRealHockey. Show LoveRealHockey's posts

    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE:
    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE : Actually, this is a really interesting idea - what impact did the Philistine have on the Laffs?  Last year, without Phil, and without a high-profile defensive group, the Laffs finished 23rd and picked 7th.  This year, with Phil, the Laffs finish 29th and would be in line to pick 2nd if they hadn't made the deal.  The only argument you could make in terms of his impact on the TEAM this year would be to say he kept them from finishing dead last.  How can that be!!  Well, look at last year's production vs. this year's and it's pretty clear. Last year, in Kessel's role and with basically the same supporting cast, Jason Blake scored 25 goals and 63 points - meaning he'll have outscored Kessel by about 8 points (though he played 8 more games).  Almost every other Toronto forward is performing at basically the same level as last year.  So he hasn't made anyone on the team better, but he did make Blake expendable.  Basically, he is a 5-8 goal upgrade on Jason Blake, but a total points wash and, while he's a decade younger, he eats up $1.5M more cap space per year. Burkists (Burkas?  =Guys who pull the wool up around their eyes to avoid acknowledging that Burke isn't Midas) will say this deal was made for 5 years, and by the second or third year, Kessel will be the schist.  This year doesn't matter.  Maybe.  But even if you don't care if this year was a foregoner, if you're a Leafs fan, assessing Kessel's impact beyond his raw goal total will make you a bit queasy.  Where's LRH?  LRH, can I offer you some Pepto?
    Posted by Bookboy007


    Hey I'm here.  Pepto?  Maybe....but not for the reasons you think.  I'm actually much happier with the state the Leafs are in now then coming into this year.

    The Leafs going into this year was a MESS in need a very major overhall.  That process is taking place and it will continue to be painful for awhile, but I think they are going in the right direction.

    They are moving in the right direction and Kessel will be part of that.  I didn't think they'd make the playoffs this year (I doubt they make next year).
    But they will be much more competitive next year.  Younger and faster and goaltending should be better.

    The main reason for the Leafs finishing 2nd last was because they had very poor goaltending.  They outplayed many teams in the early going only to lose to bad goaltending.

    You put Rask in the Leaf net and you take Toskala and Gustovasson and I think we wouldn't be having this friendly discussion.

    The Leafs are still a work in progress.  However the Bruins went from First to fighting to get into the playoffs this year.  Leafs are a bit worse then they were last year, Bruins are a lot worse then last year. Scoring is their problem.
    They traded their top scorer from last year (who would have also been their top scorer this year). 

    I don't think Kessel is nearly as good as someone of the people think he is on this forum, but I do know he's much better then some of you think or give him credit for.



     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from davecarr. Show davecarr's posts

    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE:
    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE : Actually, this is a really interesting idea - what impact did the Philistine have on the Laffs?  Last year, without Phil, and without a high-profile defensive group, the Laffs finished 23rd and picked 7th.  This year, with Phil, the Laffs finish 29th and would be in line to pick 2nd if they hadn't made the deal.  The only argument you could make in terms of his impact on the TEAM this year would be to say he kept them from finishing dead last.  How can that be!!  Well, look at last year's production vs. this year's and it's pretty clear. Last year, in Kessel's role and with basically the same supporting cast, Jason Blake scored 25 goals and 63 points - meaning he'll have outscored Kessel by about 8 points (though he played 8 more games).  Almost every other Toronto forward is performing at basically the same level as last year.  So he hasn't made anyone on the team better, but he did make Blake expendable.  Basically, he is a 5-8 goal upgrade on Jason Blake, but a total points wash and, while he's a decade younger, he eats up $1.5M more cap space per year. Burkists (Burkas?  =Guys who pull the wool up around their eyes to avoid acknowledging that Burke isn't Midas) will say this deal was made for 5 years, and by the second or third year, Kessel will be the schist.  This year doesn't matter.  Maybe.  But even if you don't care if this year was a foregoner, if you're a Leafs fan, assessing Kessel's impact beyond his raw goal total will make you a bit queasy.  Where's LRH?  LRH, can I offer you some Pepto?
    Posted by Bookboy007


    They say this deal was made for 5 years from now. You mean like when those 2 first rounders will be making an impact? lol. lovin it
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveRealHockey. Show LoveRealHockey's posts

    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE:
    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE : They say this deal was made for 5 years from now. You mean like when those 2 first rounders will be making an impact? lol. lovin it
    Posted by davecarr

    Actually I think it's around 3 years.....just about the time another offensive star has had enough of Boston and we take them off your hands as a RFA...........LOL
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    You still won't have any picks to back your RFA offer.  Jarkko Kukkalaainen, or whoever is tabbed as the next genius solution by Tannenbaum et. al. when they decide Burke's plan isn't working, will have dealt them by then!  Maybe for Zach Hamill...Kessel needs a centre, right?

    In theory, I like Burke's plan, as far as I can deduce it from the moves he's made, but I also remember the difficulties his Canucks had because they couldn't get the Sedins to progress quickly enough and they couldn't keep that high-end D corps together, and mostly they couldn't improve on Dan Cloutier in net.  Anaheim probably improved Burke's planning, but he inherited a lot of the pieces that won that Cup - pretty much everything but Neidermeyer (who signed to play with his brother) and Pronger (whose wife forced Edmonton's hand).  Anyway, the plan: you build from the net out.  You fortify the top end of your roster before all else.  So now he has the sniper he thinks can drive the O and in Phaneuf he's got the banger with puck skills who can lead the D, and if Gustafsson solidifies the net, they have the equivalent of Baseball's 'strength up the middle'.  Problem is, if you've miscast any of these guys, you'll burn and badly. And I think Kessel is miscast. 

    If I'm making comparisons, he's a much more a Glenn Anderson than he is a Jari Kurri - a potentially deadly second line option who can disappear for stretches without costing the team wins.  Maybe Geoff Sanderson is a better straight up comparison because Anderson was an assassin when he wanted to go hard to the net.  And I don't see Kessel putting up several 50 goal or 100 point seasons on his way to 500 goals (-2) and over a 1000 points.  Sanderson's two years in the 40s as a young player followed by 4 seasons of 30+ spread out over the next 10 years sounds plausible for Phil - assuming he ever gets to 40.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE:
    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE : Pittsburg didn't tank on purpose to get crosby if that is what your implying, they completely lucked out, everyteam in the league had a shot at him.. They went the normal route, win some cups, tail off, be bad for a while,rebuild, get good again..
    Posted by rolerhoky19


    They did tank on purpose to get Lemieux.  And they gutted the team post Jagr because they were going to sell the team and it was a more attractive asset if it wasn't saddled with big liabilities.  So they didn't convince the players to lose, but they also didn't try to build a competitive team for a few years and that resulted in Whitney (5th) Fleury (1st), Malkin (2nd), and even Crysby(1st).  Although the order of the 2005 draft was determined by lottery, the Penguins were one of four teams who, by virtue of sucking so hard for the last three years, had a 3x better chance of selecting Crysby than most of the league.  This was also based on their finishing second-worst the year before the lockout, meaning they'd already been awarded Malkin for their failures.  Let's not forget that the Pingu were bad enough that even with Crysby, Malkin, and Creaky Mario, they drafted second overall again in 2006 and picked Jordan Staal.

    To me, that's a run of ineptitude beyond reasonable proportions, beyond the normal cycle of contending and rebuilding, and considering this is the second time in the last 20 years that the Penguins have gone this route*, I find their willingness to be that brutal for that long, and then their willingness to moan about the city not supporting the franchise, odious.

    *Between '84 (1st - Lemieux) and '90 (5th - Jagr), the Penguins drafted 2nd, 4th, 5th, 4th, and 16th.  All of those years, they were bad enough that even Mario couldn't make them a playoff team.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveRealHockey. Show LoveRealHockey's posts

    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE:
    You still won't have any picks to back your RFA offer.  Jarkko Kukkalaainen, or whoever is tabbed as the next genius solution by Tannenbaum et. al. when they decide Burke's plan isn't working, will have dealt them by then!  Maybe for Zach Hamill...Kessel needs a centre, right? In theory, I like Burke's plan, as far as I can deduce it from the moves he's made, but I also remember the difficulties his Canucks had because they couldn't get the Sedins to progress quickly enough and they couldn't keep that high-end D corps together, and mostly they couldn't improve on Dan Cloutier in net.  Anaheim probably improved Burke's planning, but he inherited a lot of the pieces that won that Cup - pretty much everything but Neidermeyer (who signed to play with his brother) and Pronger (whose wife forced Edmonton's hand).  Anyway, the plan: you build from the net out.  You fortify the top end of your roster before all else.  So now he has the sniper he thinks can drive the O and in Phaneuf he's got the banger with puck skills who can lead the D, and if Gustafsson solidifies the net, they have the equivalent of Baseball's 'strength up the middle'.  Problem is, if you've miscast any of these guys, you'll burn and badly. And I think Kessel is miscast.  If I'm making comparisons, he's a much more a Glenn Anderson than he is a Jari Kurri - a potentially deadly second line option who can disappear for stretches without costing the team wins.  Maybe Geoff Sanderson is a better straight up comparison because Anderson was an assassin when he wanted to go hard to the net.  And I don't see Kessel putting up several 50 goal or 100 point seasons on his way to 500 goals (-2) and over a 1000 points.  Sanderson's two years in the 40s as a young player followed by 4 seasons of 30+ spread out over the next 10 years sounds plausible for Phil - assuming he ever gets to 40.
    Posted by Bookboy007

    Actually make some good points here, Bookboy.  I don't rule out anything you've said.  Time will tell.

    I'm interested to see how Kessel plays next year.  I think that will be a good indication of where this all goes.  It can go either way.

    He definitely looks like he should be in better shape though.  I know the Leafs have a new offseason regiment for all the players and I know Kessel historically doesn't like to work out so something will give one way or the other.

    In any event I don't see Kessel as any saviour or superstar.  He has an important role and  I expect him to be a 2nd-tier type scorer, 30-40 goals on a consistent basis.

    Would I rather have Hall or Seguin?  Based on where the Leafs are in their evolution now, it would have made a lot more sense to me for them to tough out the year and retain their draft picks.

    Again, time will tell.

    Appreciate the insight, though, BookBoy, even if we disagree at times.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from No4BobbyOrr-GOAT. Show No4BobbyOrr-GOAT's posts

    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    BB7 lots of valid points, except Blake scored 10G in 56 games for Leafs this year, which would have been 15 with full season. Blake was signed for big bucks 20M 5 year 4M cap hit and in 3rd season had totalled 50 goals. He is on his way out and is 13 years older. His career is at 190 and Kess at 96G.

    Burke was finally able to dump this salary and got a goalie upgrade at the same time and a mentor for the Monster. This is similar to B's problem with Ryder big salary and 43G in 2seasons and 142g in career with 4M cap hit, PC was not able to get rid of him and signed him to big salary after 14G season. Burke at least inherited his player at 4M after scoring 40 in a season, Chia signed his. This post would not be happening if Ryder had been signed for 2-2.5M, his play has been decent, just not worth inflated salary and it all belongs to PC not willing to admit mistake and dumping Ryder. If Burke could dump Blake who is 6 years older than Ryder and his cap of 4M is for an extra year, why could PC not dump Ryder.

    Burke put the cart before the horse though, getting a scorer without a center, maybe Hall/Seguin.LOL    He also screwed up not giving Kaberle up for him a -18, take him off the PP and he is useless defensively, happy we got Morris over him in the off season and now Seidenberg. PC beat him on this non trade. I would def take next years pick over Kaberle especially at his 4.25M cap hit.

     
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    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE:
    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE : Actually, this is a really interesting idea - what impact did the Philistine have on the Laffs?  Last year, without Phil, and without a high-profile defensive group, the Laffs finished 23rd and picked 7th.  This year, with Phil, the Laffs finish 29th and would be in line to pick 2nd if they hadn't made the deal.  The only argument you could make in terms of his impact on the TEAM this year would be to say he kept them from finishing dead last.  How can that be!!  Well, look at last year's production vs. this year's and it's pretty clear. Last year, in Kessel's role and with basically the same supporting cast, Jason Blake scored 25 goals and 63 points - meaning he'll have outscored Kessel by about 8 points (though he played 8 more games).  Almost every other Toronto forward is performing at basically the same level as last year.  So he hasn't made anyone on the team better, but he did make Blake expendable.  Basically, he is a 5-8 goal upgrade on Jason Blake, but a total points wash and, while he's a decade younger, he eats up $1.5M more cap space per year. Burkists (Burkas?  =Guys who pull the wool up around their eyes to avoid acknowledging that Burke isn't Midas) will say this deal was made for 5 years, and by the second or third year, Kessel will be the schist.  This year doesn't matter.  Maybe.  But even if you don't care if this year was a foregoner, if you're a Leafs fan, assessing Kessel's impact beyond his raw goal total will make you a bit queasy.  Where's LRH?  LRH, can I offer you some Pepto?
    Posted by Bookboy007


    Interesting, I've heard it said that some of this year's  Bruins scoring troubles was because Phil opened up space for people, i.e. while everyone's watching Kessel, someone else scores.  Doesn't appear to have happened in Toronto.

    And I think the problem is that Kessel has too much free reign, I think that Wilson has been told by Burke to just let Kessel do whatever he wants.  Kessel has been carrying the puck way way too much.

    My pet theory is that the Leafs plan is to just let Kessel do what he wants until he realizes that maybe he should  start listening to his coaches.  They know they are going to be terrible, so don't waste energy trying to get Kessel in line, let him knock himself out and he'll eventually come around.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kurako. Show Kurako's posts

    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    There's been a few say that Kessel has improved as a sniper this season. The numbers don't bear it out. 

    08-09: 36G on 232 shots = 15.5% (70 reg season games)
    09-10: 30G on 297 shots = 10.1% (69 reg season games)

    Of course those goals are of value but I don't see anything to suggest he's an 'elite' goalscorer. A career shooting pc of 10.5% puts him below the much maligned Sturm and even our good friend Mr Ryder ( both 12.0% career reg season ) who are having sub-par years by their own standards.

     
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    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    Love this thread !

     
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    Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE

    In Response to Re: CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE:
    In Response to CHIARELLI HOODWINKED BY BURKE : PC is just an idiot, he is totally incompetent. he has no idea what he is doing. I didnt think guys like that could still exist in nhl. what a joke of a team, back to bruins hoping and that's it Posted by marco100


    Marco where are you!? Come out, come out wherever you are...
     

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