Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    "PC couldn't get the deal he wanted"

    Two ways to interpret this:

    PC wanted to dump Savard and couldn't get anything of value.  Rather than get creamed for ditching Savard for nothing, he chose to hang on to him.

    PC looked into the possibility of moving Savard with specific targets in mind - probably a younger top 2-3 D with puck skills.  The teams with those assets to trade are few, and none of them wanted to make a deal for Savard for whatever reason.  So PC, content that the team is better with Savard than without him (unless it meant a significant blueline upgrade...), keeps Savard.

    We can throw in this other possibility too - just because the premise undermines your argument:

    GMs around the league watched Seguin pull on his Bruin jersey.  They looked at Chiarelli's cap room, the roster spaces to fill, and like every hockey pundit from here to Topeka guessed that Chiarelli might feel pressured to move Savard.  That package of talent and cap-friendly contract is worth kicking the tires if you can get a bargain.  GMs made calls.  They made offers of prospects, picks, decent veteran roster players.  Chiarelli said no thanks, we'll keep Marc.

    Just so you don't miss it: the premise of this scenario is that other teams came looking for Savard unsolicited but weren't willing to overpay, or didn't have the right assets, to convince PC to make the deal.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from RMiller87. Show RMiller87's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.:
    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization. : What's your point?  I didn't say he'd had one injury.  I said he had a rash of injuries last year (those two being the only ones severe enough to keep him out of the lineup).  Are you suggesting that his age is the reason he had injuries last year?  Maybe, but again, one year isn't a trend - especially when the second injury was a cheap shot. Savard projected at 66 points - an off year. The team had a terrible statistical year due to injuries across the lineup.  And you're taking a one year dip, trying to correct for injuries, and suggesting Savard won't better that pace by four points ever again in his career?  Not sure why you're so convinced.  But then, like I said, you seem to find a dime, put your foot down, and refuse to move.
    Posted by Bookboy007


    This is not a big secret...

    But most players' offensive production significantly trails off by their early to mid-thirties...

    Gretzky went from 130 pts to 48 pts when he turned 33 years old...

    M Lemieux would temporarily leave hockey by the time that he turned 33 years...

    Savard is not Gretzky or Lemieux, of course, but one can easily see that he is not the same player offensively that he used to be even three or four years ago... 

    Factoring in his 7 year contract and his NMC, I am really not surprised that the other NHL GMs didn't meet Chiarelli's trade demands for Savard (whatever those were.)
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.:
    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization. : This is not a big secret... But most players' offensive production significantly trails off by their early to mid-thirties... Gretzky went from 130 pts to 48 pts when he turned 33 years old... M Lemieux would temporarily leave hockey by the time that he turned 33 years... Savard is not Gretzky or Lemieux, of course, but one can easily see that he is not the same player offensively that he used to be even three or four years ago...  Factoring in his 7 year contract and his NMC, I am really not surprised that the other NHL GMs didn't meet Chiarelli's trade demands for Savard (whatever those were.)
    Posted by RMiller87


    you need to stop, your horrible at this..
    gretkzy went from 130 pts to 48, when the strike shortened the season from 82 games to 48.. nothing to do with his age, so how you could come up with the corrilation that this happened at 33, and miss the entire fact that the league only playeda  48 game season is beyond me.. Mario, temporarily leaves hockey at age 33, after having battled cancer which would leave his body weakened and lead to more injuries, those are examples you want to use??

    the game also changed after the lock out with the "new rules" so scoring before and after taht time period don't really project..


    you can't take 33 pts in 41 games of an injury prone season and say "A healthy savard would have only scored 66 points"  Its a complete disregard for health, recovery, conditioning and honestly makes it sound like your only experience with sports is via a video game, anyone who has played anything, should know any injury takes more time to recover then just the "games missed"..
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    At 37, Gretzky sored 90 points, finished 4th in the league in scoring, scored another 60 points in 70 games the following year and retired. Savy puts up that kind of a "decline" the bruins will be estatic with the $4 cap hit..
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from RMiller87. Show RMiller87's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.:
    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization. : you need to stop, your horrible at this.. gretkzy went from 130 pts to 48, when the strike shortened the season from 82 games to 48.. nothing to do with his age, so how you could come up with the corrilation that this happened at 33, and miss the entire fact that the league only playeda  48 game season is beyond me.. Mario, temporarily leaves hockey at age 33, after having battled cancer which would leave his body weakened and lead to more injuries, those are examples you want to use?? the game also changed after the lock out with the "new rules" so scoring before and after taht time period don't really project.. you can't take 33 pts in 41 games of an injury prone season and say "A healthy savard would have only scored 66 points"  Its a complete disregard for health, recovery, conditioning and honestly makes it sound like your only experience with sports is via a video game, anyone who has played anything, should know any injury takes more time to recover then just the "games missed"..
    Posted by rolerhoky19


    Those were two examples...

    My point was that Gretzky never came close to again registering a 130 pts. season after he turned 33 years old...

    Savard's head injury also came at the end of his season so he was presumably healthy for the 41 games that he played in...

    If you can find an example of another smallish player that had his best years after the age of 33 years, I am willing to listen to your argument...

    Until then, I am standing by my prediction that Savard won't register another 70 pts.+ season in his career...
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RMiller87. Show RMiller87's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.:
    At 37, Gretzky sored 90 points, finished 4th in the league in scoring, scored another 60 points in 70 games the following year and retired. Savy puts up that kind of a "decline" the bruins will be estatic with the $4 cap hit..
    Posted by rolerhoky19


    Do you actually think that I was comparing Gretzky and Savard ?

    Gretzky had 215 pts. in one season...

    Savard's best season was 97 pts. four years ago while playing for Atlanta...

    Gretzky's 90 points at the age of 37 years would likely be comparable to Savard getting 43 pts. at the same age assuming that he is still playing hockey when he is 37 years old...
     
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.:
    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization. : You have succumbed to the recency effect.  Savard had a bad, injury-filled season last year.  Prior to that, he had 3 complete seasons and one season with 8 games missed.  One bad season does not make a player "oft injured". Gaborik, who only hit 70 games 5 years out of 9 is a far better candidate for the injury-prone label. Posted by DrCC


    Thank you for double checking this as I did not think Reilly24 was making this up.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    Gretkzy didnt come close to 130 again proving your lack of understanding for the game, since the lock out, the 95-96 season is the only season a player has put up 130 points or more, 2 guys did it that year, it has not happened since, gretzkys fall off in production had more to do with the game changes then his age, as I stated, and you failed to offer any kind of retort, at 37 he scored 90 points and was 4th in the league..

    Savard didnt sign this contract with anyone expecting him to start setting career highs, he has peaked, so there is no reason for me to find you "examples of smallish guys having their best years after 33"  they idea that he can continue to play at a high level, well like you said hes not gretkzy, but he certainly continued to play at a high level even if you fail to understand that...

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from RMiller87. Show RMiller87's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    It is also accepted that a NHL's prime years are between 27 years and 32 years...

    I hate to break it to you, but Marc Savard is past his prime...

    Other GMs would have been offering very little for a player who is past his prime, and has a seven year contract with a NMC...

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from RMiller87. Show RMiller87's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.:
    Gretkzy didnt come close to 130 again proving your lack of understanding for the game, since the lock out, the 95-96 season is the only season a player has put up 130 points or more, 2 guys did it that year, it has not happened since, gretzkys fall off in production had more to do with the game changes then his age, as I stated, and you failed to offer any kind of retort, at 37 he scored 90 points and was 4th in the league.. Savard didnt sign this contract with anyone expecting him to start setting career highs, he has peaked, so there is no reason for me to find you "examples of smallish guys having their best years after 33"  they idea that he can continue to play at a high level, well like you said hes not gretkzy, but he certainly continued to play at a high level even if you fail to understand that...
    Posted by rolerhoky19


    I repeat that I wasn't comparing Gretzky to Savard...

    Savard doesn't belong in the same sentence...

    One is one of the greatest players to ever play the game, the other is not...
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.:
    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization. : Do you actually think that I was comparing Gretzky and Savard ? Gretzky had 215 pts. in one season... Savard's best season was 97 pts. four years ago while playing for Atlanta... Gretzky's 90 points at the age of 37 years would likely be comparable to Savard getting 43 pts. at the same age assuming that he is still playing hockey when he is 37 years old...  
    Posted by RMiller87



    you just keep showing everyone your lack of understanding for the game with statements like that.. gretz was 4th in scoring that year, so his 90 points would be similar to savard finishing some where in the top 10, if the league leader scored 150 that season, scoring will be up maybe savy does score 120 points.. if the leader scores 92 point scoring will be down maybe sav only scores 75..
     all of this could be still be an expectation if he is healthy and has the right players around him..

    You can't compare points from generation to generation, the game has changed to much, you really think no one has scored 130 points in 15 seasons now because no one is 60% of the player that gretzky was? cause thats the stupid arguement you are making...
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.:
    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization. : I repeat that I wasn't comparing Gretzky to Savard... Savard doesn't belong in the same sentence... One is one of the greatest players to ever play the game, the other is not...
    Posted by RMiller87


    your not comparing them? cause your siting gretzky for an example of the decline of a player, and your doing so inaccurately..
    You have yet to make a point, players prime age is dependent on position actually but 29-31 are typically the peak age, but the fall off of a players game is more typically tied to the guys style of play.. Savard is a passer, he should be able to continue to do so well for quite some time barring injury..
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from RMiller87. Show RMiller87's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    NHL forwards also have their peak years between 25 - 29 years of age compared to defensemen and goaltenders who generally peak later so the overall means are somewhat inflated.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from RMiller87. Show RMiller87's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.:
    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization. : You have succumbed to the recency effect.  Savard had a bad, injury-filled season last year.  Prior to that, he had 3 complete seasons and one season with 8 games missed.  One bad season does not make a player "oft injured". Gaborik, who only hit 70 games 5 years out of 9 is a far better candidate for the injury-prone label.
    Posted by DrCC


    The recency effect ?

    Would that be the same effect that causes people to forget that Savard typically had 6 - 65 points a season between the years 1997 - 2004, and makes them go kinda nutty when it is suggested that he will not score more than 70 pts. a season now that he is past his prime ?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.:
    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization. : The recency effect ? Would that be the same effect that causes people to forget that Savard typically had 6 - 65 points a season between the years 1997 - 2004, and makes them go kinda nutty when it is suggested that he will not score more than 70 pts. a season now that he is past his prime ?
    Posted by RMiller87

    Savard spent a significant portion of 1997 in the AHL, so have to drop that year.
    Did you mean to be talking about points, or games?  Because he's only had 5 total seasons with 65+ points, and four of those were after the lockout.  Four strait seasons of point-per-game production.  That is a trend.
    Is he on the decline side of his career?  Perhaps, but you can't make the argument that he is based upon one multi-injury season.  If so, then 2001-2002 when he earned 33 points in 56 games should have been a sign that his career was over.
    That is where people are going 'nutty'.  Not that you believe what you believe, but that you are trying to make a numbers-based argument when the numbers just don't support you.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from RMiller87. Show RMiller87's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    But the numbers do support my arguments...

    A NHL forward's prime years are between the ages of 25 - 29 years of age...

    Savard is now 33 years of age...

    Savard is also now four seasons removed from his peak offensive output, and would have only managed a projected 66 pts. had he managed to play an 82 game schedule in 2009-2010...

    His MCL tear and concussion of last season only add to his future uncertainty recognizing that an NHL hockey player is only as good as their last hockey game...

    I didn't say that his career was over, I merely said that he won't likely have another 70 pts. season in his career...

    Compounded with the fact that he has a 7 year contract with a NMC, I am not surprised that (a) NHL GMs shied away from him and/or (b) Chiarelli wasn't able to get the deal that he wanted for him.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.:
    But the numbers do support my arguments... A NHL forward's prime years are between the ages of 25 - 29 years of age... Savard is now 33 years of age... Savard is also now four seasons removed from his peak offensive output, and would have only managed a projected 66 pts. had he managed to play an 82 game schedule in 2009-2010... His MCL tear and concussion of last season only add to his future uncertainty recognizing that an NHL hockey player is only as good as their last hockey game... I didn't say that his career was over, I merely said that he won't likely have another 70 pts. season in his career... Compounded with the fact that he has a 7 year contract with a NMC, I am not surprised that (a) NHL GMs shied away from him and/or (b) Chiarelli wasn't able to get the deal that he wanted for him.
    Posted by RMiller87

    Actually, what you said that got all of this started is that he is injury prone.

    Prior to his first missed game last season, he had 7 points in 7 games.

    The final 7 games before his second injury (the MCL tear) he had 7 points in 7 games.

    His final 10 games before (and including) his encounter with Cooke he scored 8 points.

    Everything suggests that if he had remained healthy for even a decent stretch - his longest was 20 games in a row - he would have gotten himself back up to the 70 point projection range.

    The only support for your stance is that other players have declined after 33, and that his injuries will accelerate the process.  This may happen.  There is nothing in Savard's numbers that tell us it is likely.  In fact, that he appeared to be almost back to a point-per-game pace after returning from the MCL tear suggests that it is not something to be overly concerned about.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from RMiller87. Show RMiller87's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    It's actually a myth that Marc Savard is a point-per-game player.

    Over his career, Savard is a 0.89 point-per-game player.

    Since his return from a concussion, Savard is a 0.43 point-per-game player.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from RMiller87. Show RMiller87's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    So, over his career, Savard has averaged :

    0.89 PPG X 82 games = 73 points per season.

    This is not extraordinarily different from his projected 66 pt. output last season had he managed to stay healthy for a full 82 games.

    Factor in that he is also well past the prime years for a NHL forward (25-29 years) and coming off a season where he sustained two very significant injuries, and I think my prediction about him never reaching the 70 point plateau is a pretty safe one especially when you consider last year was his contract year.

    Not sure why everyone has their knickers in a knot here. 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    You still cant project points off his injury.. A quick count has him at 23pts through 25 games.. missed time, slower production upon return, plus a stretch after lucic went down were savard had 0 points over 5 games..

    That suggest no drop in production at all.. What savard does next year willd depend on how healthy he is..  I don't expect savard to improve, or to put up better numbers at his age, he doesnt need to he needs to continue to be a productive number one center and play maker, I do expect that. 

    Forwards, typically hit stride at age 29-31, not as young as you have predicted, this is all going to be opinion as there is no exact age so we can disagree, but 25 is probably where their full games start to develop, 27-29 is the physical peak, and then 29-31 is typically the best years based on physical peak combined with experience, modano posted 81 81 and 84 from the age of 29-31 and then 85 at 33.

    I only argued that point about lemieux and gretkzy's decline because it was so far off and grossly inaccurate .. I mean gretz went from 130 to 48 at age 33, and you leave it at that, no refence to the strike to rule changes etc, impossible to say he declined that yera because of his age, was 4th in the league at 37, thats not 215 points, but I'd settle for that kind of decline...

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    I don't think anyone claimed Savard was a point-per-game player over his entire career.  Just that he spent 4 years (which also happen to be his most recent four not-injury-filled years) at that pace.  He isn't Cheechoo, with one big season.  He isn't Kovalev, with totals all over the place.  He has proven that he is consitently capable of producing, recently.

    And, again, people are frustrated with you more because you are trying to support a square-holed argument with a bunch of round pegs than because of you actual stance.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from RMiller87. Show RMiller87's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    In Response to Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.:
    You still cant project points off his injury.. A quick count has him at 23pts through 25 games.. missed time, slower production upon return, plus a stretch after lucic went down were savard had 0 points over 5 games.. That suggest no drop in production at all.. What savard does next year willd depend on how healthy he is..  I don't expect savard to improve, or to put up better numbers at his age, he doesnt need to he needs to continue to be a productive number one center and play maker, I do expect that.  Forwards, typically hit stride at age 29-31, not as young as you have predicted, this is all going to be opinion as there is no exact age so we can disagree, but 25 is probably where their full games start to develop, 27-29 is the physical peak, and then 29-31 is typically the best years based on physical peak combined with experience, modano posted 81 81 and 84 from the age of 29-31 and then 85 at 33. I only argued that point about lemieux and gretkzy's decline because it was so far off and grossly inaccurate .. I mean gretz went from 130 to 48 at age 33, and you leave it at that, no refence to the strike to rule changes etc, impossible to say he declined that yera because of his age, was 4th in the league at 37, thats not 215 points, but I'd settle for that kind of decline...
    Posted by rolerhoky19


    But Modano was a true PPG player before 33 years of age.

    After 33 years of age, Modano had 44, 77, 43, 57, 46 and 30 pts in a season.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from RMiller87. Show RMiller87's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    Let's look at the established facts :

    1.  Marc Savard is 33 years old and "past his prime" by anyone's definition of the prime years of a NHL player.

    2.  Had Savard played the entire 82 game schedule last season, he would have been projected to put up 66 points in 2009-2010.

    3.  Over his career, Marc Savard is a 0.89 PPG scorer with an average of 73 points per season.

    4.  The future consequences of his injuries from last season (MCL tear Right knee and Grade II concussion) remain unknown (ie. Savard is a 0.43 PPG scorer since returning from his head injury.)

    These are the knowns.

    The unknowns are whether PC couldn't find any suitors at all for Savard's 7 year NMC contract or just couldn't find the deal that he liked.

    But I suspect that he didn't find too many GMs interested in Savard's contract for some of the reasons that I have stated.  
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    This is what I mean about RMiller fighting to stay on his dime no matter what slippery, stupid line of defense he needs to mount.  So far, we've gone from Savard in injury prone to Savard is getting older to the generally accepted "prime" window for NHL players with a side slip misdirection into discussions of Lemieux and Gretzky - because, you know, they're typical and so good comparisons to bring up.

    What I love is that when it serves his purpose, he takes the long view and includes Savard's early years in an assessment of what kind of player Savard is re: ppg.  Then elsewhere, he points to the all-powerful "prime" years of a player's career when clearly he is like unto a god on skates.

    Add to the example of Modano roler brings up above:

    Adam Oates, from 33-41, played 601 games and averaged 0.965 ppg in an era of clutching and grabbing.  He did this with a forearm injury that meant he could barely shoot the puck.

    Joe Sakic, at 34, 35, 36 put up 87, 87, and 100 points.

    Steve Yzerman was close to a point/game right up until 40.

    Ron Francis racked up 90 and 87 points at 33 and 34 before moving the Carolina and dropping down to a respectable .75 ppg.

    There are more and more examples of players putting up good numbers after 33 when they have stick skills and creativity that doesn't depend on great speed, strength, or quickness.  Your request for guys who had career years after 33 was ridiculous; but now you have 5 guys in recent memory who played to high offensive totals after 33.  There are plenty of exceptions, especially if you consider that the pool you should be looking at is guys at or near the top of the scoring pile for several years, not all players.

    And for the sheer ridiculousness of it - Lemieux missed three years of NHL action, came back at 35, and put up 76 points in 43 games.  The next year he only played 24 games and racked up 31 points.  The year after that - at 37 - he had 91 points in just 67 games.  Why you think his having cancer helped your argument is beyond me.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mutant211. Show Mutant211's posts

    Re: Chiarelli tells Savard hes not trading him and hes part of this organization.

    Am I the only one who thinks that RMiller87 is not a Bruins fan as he claims, but a Habs fan who is just here trying to spread discontent among actual Bruins fans? 

    Maybe he thinks that if he turns enough fans against Savard that there will be a chance he gets traded to Montreal.  Whatever his motives, he makes me happy that this site offers an ignore feature.
     
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