Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from yaz16. Show yaz16's posts

    Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    Chara does alot for our team , especially our defense , logs on a ton off minutes and brings some offensive skills to the table. But in the past two playoffs as a Bruin (and history as a Senator) he has helped his team get to nowhere near the finals.

    In both Hurracaine and Montreal Series he got outplayed against several opponents especially against midget guys who can really skate.

    If he is such a crucial part of our teams future he would have been resigned to an extension by now.

    Same said about Bergeron . He is younger and still only about 85 percent of where he was pre concussion. Not sure if he will ever be 100 percent when he was a points a game player . He didn't need good wingers and scored some nice goals all by himself.

    Now he plays a conservative game to say the least, doesn't go into the corners nearly as much, doesn't crash the net , and plays cautiously.

    three options we have imo is to keep both for one more year (their contract years) , and see how far we can get into the playoffs with some additional support (hall/seguin and healthy team in general), offer extension of 3.5 million for 3 years for bergeron and 2 year 10 million dollar for chara and see if they will bite, and the other to trade them in the off season or near trade deadline to get some value back.

    Two key reason why we may not miss these players much are Seidenberg and Seguin both who is part of our long term plan.

    Last thing PC can do to us is try to resign everyone who he has a personal relationship with (like Ference) and forget to ultimately shape a bruins team that can raise the cup .


     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    When is the official beginning of the season for contracts?  Players can't sign extensions before the beinning of the last year of their current contracts.  This may be the only reason neither have been extended.
    Given how agressive Chiarelli has been about extending players, I would expect Chara to be done as soon as possible if he is willing to accept a Savardish contract.  Bergeron may depend on the draft.  Chiarelli should want to keep his options open.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from logeseats. Show logeseats's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    Correct Dr...they can't sign extensions til after 7/1.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    In Response to Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?:
    Chara does alot for our team , especially our defense , logs on a ton off minutes and brings some offensive skills to the table. But in the past two playoffs as a Bruin (and history as a Senator) he has helped his team get to nowhere near the finals. In both Hurracaine and Montreal Series he got outplayed against several opponents especially against midget guys who can really skate. If he is such a crucial part of our teams future he would have been resigned to an extension by now. Same said about Bergeron . He is younger and still only about 85 percent of where he was pre concussion. Not sure if he will ever be 100 percent when he was a points a game player . He didn't need good wingers and scored some nice goals all by himself. Now he plays a conservative game to say the least, doesn't go into the corners nearly as much, doesn't crash the net , and plays cautiously. three options we have imo is to keep both for one more year (their contract years) , and see how far we can get into the playoffs with some additional support (hall/seguin and healthy team in general), offer extension of 3.5 million for 3 years for bergeron and 2 year 10 million dollar for chara and see if they will bite, and the other to trade them in the off season or near trade deadline to get some value back. Two key reason why we may not miss these players much are Seidenberg and Seguin both who is part of our long term plan. Last thing PC can do to us is try to resign everyone who he has a personal relationship with (like Ference) and forget to ultimately shape a bruins team that can raise the cup .
    Posted by yaz16


    Are you confusing Patrice Bergeron with Marc-Andre? Because you certainly didn't describe the Patrice Bergeron who plays for the Bruins.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from MILANlucic17. Show MILANlucic17's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    The only way I would want either back after their current contracts are up is for les money. Both are "good" players but neither in my opinion is at the talent level they should be when you look at how much money they make a season. Also what have we ever won with either of these guys? No not blamming all of the teams lack of playoff success on either of them but just telling it how it is. With chara as our caption we have now loss 3 game 7's. I also find it very troubling chara using he and the team was nervous before the game 5 at home vs philly as to why they played so lifeless. Bottom line with chara bergy and the entire bruins team since 2002 to now plenty of excuses not enough w's. After how this season eneded I wish a lot of players and even coaches will not be back on the team but with passive pete it will probably little to no changes.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from joeschmo25. Show joeschmo25's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    I say extend Bergeron for 3-4 years around $4 million a year. Even if we get Seguin Bergeron is still an immensely talented player. He's become a fantastic 2-way player, and his numbers are great for a 3rd line center with little talent surrounding him. He's calm and composed with the puck, still one of the best passers on this team.

    Chara is our #1 defenseman, but I'm not sure how much longer his skills will have before they begin to decline. His size, shot and endurance are all he has going for him. He makes terrible decisions as a defenseman and he's not physical enough for his size (that could be something related to his injury this season) , but that aside his lack of physicality hurt us this season. I think if we got a stud defenseman that controlled both sides of the ice then Chara would become expendable. Maybe that need could be found in this draft. The top 6 defensemen in this draft are high talent players, capable of performing well at both sides of the ice and have good (some great) poise. I would be happy with any one of Fowler, Gudbranson, Gormley, Forbort, Merill or Pysyk. They're good enough on both sides of the ice that they could be one of the best defenseman we have for years to come. I'd love to get any of Fowler, Gubranson or Gormley, but I fear the price may be too high for that. I would happily "settle" for Forbort or Merill, who are both big, physical defenders who can also skate and make a great first pass. A lack of poise hurt our blueline this year. Defenseman who aren't confident with their passing or are unsure of when to pressure a player leave themselves open to be burnt in key areas of the ice, and it lead to bad goals as a result. I know we had the best defense in the past two years, but there's always a way to improve.


    Summary:
    Extend Bergeron for 3-4 years at $4 million a year.
    Extend Chara if a replacement isn't found (Chara at a rate of 3 years at $5-6 million, depending on his demands and market value).
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from MILANlucic17. Show MILANlucic17's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    4 mill a  year for a 3rd line center? I am all set with that as well as maybe extending chara for 5-6 mill.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    I think the Bruins will likely extend both players, probably over-spending in the process.  Outside of Savard's cap-friendly contract, PC's extensions have been overly aggressive (see Thomas & Ference).  PC has mismanaged the cap to the point where the Bruins are in the bottom 5 of NHL teams in terms of available cap space for next year, so more irressponsible contract extensions should be expected.

    Chara- 33 years old, currently making $7.5M.  I am not sure how PC convinces him to take a hometown discount ala Savard, but if he does then I am all for it.  I just don't see how Chara would do 3 years @ $5-6M per as some suggest.  If you cannot get him to agree to a cap-friendly extension, then PC has no choice but to trade Chara.  Chara has great value and would fetch a substantial amount in return, and give the Bruins some breathing room against the cap.  In the end, PC likely gives him 4 years in the range of $7-8M per year, and maybe tosses in a NTC for good measure.

    Bergy- will only be 25 next season, making $5.75M with a $4.75M cap hit.  I agree with so many of the comments about Bergy being a high character guy and a good 2-way player.  I am equally concerned that $5M is significant money for 52 points.  I would love to see Bergy extended, but at what cost and what impact to the roster?  With Seguin likely in the fold, the B's are rich at center (Savard, Krejci, Seguin, Sobotka, Colborne, Sauve) and weak at wing.  If the B's think Bergy can move to wing, I would extend him for 3-4 years @ $3.5-4M, he has to be at least as good as Ryder or Sturm.  Otherwise, I think he would be a great chip to acquire some talent needed at other positions (W/D).  In the end, PC likely extends him for 4 years @ $5-$5.5M per year, tosses in a limited NTC. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    Yaz16 you might want to stick to baseball even though some of your critique of Chara is right on. He is not a smart hockey player. His physical attributes have been of some benefit, but both Pronger and Carle outplayed him in the playoffs. In addition speedy wingers, both small and large have been cruising by him particularly when he fails to keep the puck in the offensive zone. Smarts will overcome size in almost every instance. Bergie is a smart player, and one that the Bruins will rely on for the foreseeable future. his all around skills are vital to any team particularly on defense, penalty kills, and faceoffs. How often have we seen Bergie's skill at faceoffs contribute to a goal; and how often has a faceoff win been given away by a defenseman throwing the puck around the boards and creating another faceoff. We need smarts on defense, and it might help to add a scoring right wing to bergie's line.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    In Response to Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?:
    Chara does alot for our team , especially our defense , logs on a ton off minutes and brings some offensive skills to the table. But in the past two playoffs as a Bruin (and history as a Senator) he has helped his team get to nowhere near the finals. In both Hurracaine and Montreal Series he got outplayed against several opponents especially against midget guys who can really skate. If he is such a crucial part of our teams future he would have been resigned to an extension by now. Same said about Bergeron . He is younger and still only about 85 percent of where he was pre concussion. Not sure if he will ever be 100 percent when he was a points a game player . He didn't need good wingers and scored some nice goals all by himself. Now he plays a conservative game to say the least, doesn't go into the corners nearly as much, doesn't crash the net , and plays cautiously. three options we have imo is to keep both for one more year (their contract years) , and see how far we can get into the playoffs with some additional support (hall/seguin and healthy team in general), offer extension of 3.5 million for 3 years for bergeron and 2 year 10 million dollar for chara and see if they will bite, and the other to trade them in the off season or near trade deadline to get some value back. Two key reason why we may not miss these players much are Seidenberg and Seguin both who is part of our long term plan. Last thing PC can do to us is try to resign everyone who he has a personal relationship with (like Ference) and forget to ultimately shape a bruins team that can raise the cup .
    Posted by yaz16



    Hey yaz16.... great post - Pretty accurate and insightful

    It is pretty rare to find this kind of candid evaluation when Chara and Bergeron are involved... It's usually the "shut down Dman" or "great 2 way player" dribble that's the norm.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    Broken record yes they need to be re-signed but it has to be reasonable. Chara will get Pronger money 6-6.5Mil on the market. No way does Bergeron get more than 4Mil that should be the max if he balks trade him cause he has value.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from aspirido. Show aspirido's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    In Response to Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?:
    Yaz16 you might want to stick to baseball even though some of your critique of Chara is right on. He is not a smart hockey player. His physical attributes have been of some benefit, but both Pronger and Carle outplayed him in the playoffs. In addition speedy wingers, both small and large have been cruising by him particularly when he fails to keep the puck in the offensive zone. Smarts will overcome size in almost every instance. Bergie is a smart player, and one that the Bruins will rely on for the foreseeable future. his all around skills are vital to any team particularly on defense, penalty kills, and faceoffs. How often have we seen Bergie's skill at faceoffs contribute to a goal; and how often has a faceoff win been given away by a defenseman throwing the puck around the boards and creating another faceoff. We need smarts on defense, and it might help to add a scoring right wing to bergie's line.
    Posted by Bogie6

    So anybody who is not agreeing with your point of view couldn't express their opinion? So if I have consider Pronger and Chara very similar in style and in other aspects of the game I have to talk about Red Sox?
    Look at the numbers for Pronger and Chara last 4 years. They are almost indentical. Yes, this year Chara wasn't good at scoring but whole team had trouble. Remember how much assists Pronger got after somebody deflected his pass into the net or from rebound. Yes, Chara scored less but maybe some of that not his fault. I would say Pronger a little better passer that Z is, but at same time Z better at home. And if you think any pack moving defensmen will give you also solid defense then you didn't pay attention to Gonchar and Green, none of them in PO any more. So be friedly and accept that not only Red Sox fans think high on Chara.
    Regarding conract extention I would say that Pronger contract can be used as example high paid 3-4 years and couple 0.5 mil year in the end to bring cap hit down. So 7 years with cap hit around 5 mil should be reasonable offer for him.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    Crowls's post makes me laugh.  "Here's what makes sense, so the opposite will happen - oh and NTCs all around!"  Love it.

    Other than Thomas, Ference, Savard and Recchi, has Chiarelli re-signed an impending UFA?  If it's only the 4, he's batting .500, and I still don't see a way that he could have let Thomas walk.  Maybe if someone else had had a chance to make Thomas an outrageous offer, he could have let him go and said he wanted to keep him but just couldn't afford that asking price against the cap.  He'd get crucified for letting Thomas walk in any other circumstance, including by players who would see it as discarding a guy at his peak for nothing - not exactly respectful.  If you're including RFAs, Krejci's deal is terrific because he'll still be an RFA at the end of it, and Rask should sue for misrepresentation for his deal.  The two RFA deals that seem dicey right now are Lucic's and Bergeron's, but we don't know yet if the Lucic we'll see next year is the guy who scored five goals in seven games against Philly or the guy who lumbered around and struggled most of the regular season.  The guy in game 7 v. Philly is worth $4M.  When Bergeron signed, who knew he'd lose the best part of two years to a concussion?  He looked like a 1A centre, and if he was scoring 30g and 70p per year, a $4.75M cap hit doesn't sound so bad.  It seems like it's too much for 50+ pts. even if he is a great defensive player and face-off artist, but I posted something a while back looking at scoring by centres and the salaries attached, and if I remember this right, Bergeron came out about even - that is, he's not overpaid if you look at his "comparables" for cap hits.  He not underpaid by any means, but the deal isn't looney.

    It would make sense for the Bruins to give Chara a deal like aspirido suggests - a retirement deal where he's paid like a star for a few more years and then like an aging veteran for a few more after that until his number's small enough that the Bruins can cut him for a ham sandwich or he'll retire and leave small change on the table.  Hey, he's worth at least a million more than Jeff Finger.

    Bergeron's tougher because he's too young for a retirement cap-helper unless they went all DiPietro on him: 15 years, $3.6M annual hit?  Next 8 years at $5M salary, 5 years at $2M and 4 years at $1M.  That's a little crazy.  $4-$4.5M x what?  5 years?  I guess that sounds plausible.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    Oh, and as funny as the whole "NTCs all around" thing is, you can always deal a guy with an NTC if you can convince him it's better for him and his career.  You can't punish him by sending him to Toronto (unless he wants to go...).  It makes the GMs life harder if he's looking to deal him, but in exchange, you get a valuable bargaining chip on the contract that costs you nothing in terms of the cap (unless the guy becomes $5M of dead cap sitting on the bench and starting every fourth game).  It's just another way of keeping cap hit down.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from jwb413. Show jwb413's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    Personally I would not give Chara an extension. He is past his prime already and his lack of speed will show its ugly face as the game gets faster and faster. His physical play also declined. Looking at making this team better in years to come does not include the BIG MAN who can't seem to "win game 7".
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    Bookboy, glad I was able to make you laugh.

    Your PC batting .500 pending UFA analysis seems a little cherry-picked.  I agree with your assessment of Krejci and Lucic, I appluaded those extensions to pending RFA's, but TT's contract was completely over-the-top.  To overpay TT was one thing, but to toss in the NMC was totally wreckless.

    What about?
    - Wideman: 4 years @ $4M/year
    - Schaeffer: 4 years @ $2.2M/year (after buyout, still a cap hit of $767k next year)
    - Ryder: 3 years @ $4M/year
    - Sturm: 4 years @ $3.5M/year
    - Hunwick: 2 yeas @ $1.5M

    Hits: Savard, Krejci, Lucic, Rask, Wheeler
    Misses: Thomas, Ference, Wideman, Schaeffer, Ryder, Sturm & Hunwick

    That's too many misses to think that PC gets any of this right.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    PC extended Sturm around the same time he extended Wideman.  I agree that the jury is still out on Hunwick, but it does not look good.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from aspirido. Show aspirido's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    Why so many people have problems with signing Thomas for 4 year contract?
    If we would lose Rask I see some concerns, but if he knew that Rask will be signed then I guess he did his job and did it very well.
    Look at what could happen if Rask isn't ready this year? How could he play Russian roulette with young unproven goalie and let Vezina trophy winner walk out? Look at our goalie position right now next 2 years we have 6.2 cup hit for that position for the best duo in league at this moment.
    It’s good that Rask got at this level already in past season, but how many young promised goalies tanked the season only last ones Price in Montreal, our personal Raycroft? Famous Dipietro in NIY and I can go on and on.
    So when you judge any move by GM, don't look at it when all cards are opened. Look at how it could play out and what our options would be. That’s how GM should think. Don’t put all money on one horse especially when you have options.
    BTW I don't think we have to trade TT even now, why take risk for some unproven one when you have 2 great ones? Why somebody wants something like 3 mil Fernandez contract instead of TT is beyond me.
    So as soon we have around 6 mils for goalie position it means we are in good shape and PC did his job very well.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    Crowls - cherry-picked implies I did it deliberately.  Lazy, yes.

    I wouldn't worry about Hunwick for two years at $1.5.  Half of that deal is "reward" money for a guy who looked like an essential piece of the Bruin blueline at the end of last year.  He was a trainwreck this year, and I wonder if he'll ever keep it together consistently, but that's not a terrible contract in my estimation.

    Sturm was extended in the middle of the Dave Lewis debacle when it looked like he and Bergeron were building something good - consecutive 29 goal seasons Sturm on a team with a rapidly aging Glen Murray and not much else on the wings.  How much "out" is his $3.5M hit if he and Bergeron don't both miss major chunks of time with major injuries? 

    Same with Wideman.  He had a truly awful year, but played up to his salary in the playoffs.  If he gets back to where he was for the previous two years - so averaging 13 goals and mid-40s in overall points - it's hard to say he's overpaid.  This year, that would have put him top 20 in points by a defenseman and top 10 in goals by a defenseman.  Even his more spectacularly bad defensive plays can't completely discount his offensive role.  Again, awful this year, but that doesn't really make this a bad contract.  It's not a clear winner of a deal like Rask's....

    Signing a UFA like Ryder's a different animal.  I've said all along that I believe Chiarelli's philosophy is that it's better to have to find ways to deal with money problems than lose the guy you want, and it's better PR to show not only the guy you sign but the guys you'll want to sign in the future that, when you want someone, you pay them in line with what you think they bring to your team.  Last year, Ryder was worth the cash.  This year, he's not worth tickets to see Johnny Cash (yes, I know he's passed on...).

    I've said my piece both on TT and on the value of a NTC or NMC as non-Cap bargaining tools.

    So new category?

    Hits: Savard, Lucic, Recchi, Krejci, Rask, Boychuk (gave him a 1-way deal to keep him), Kessel (that is, not signing him for $5+M).

    Wash: Thomas, Wideman, Sturm, Hunwick.

    Misses: Schaeffer, probably Ference, and I'll put Ryder here because philosophy or no, this was the wrong guy to pursue aggressively on a hunch he'd return to form under the one coach who can push his buttons.

    That's not terrible cap management.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    Quick follow up -

    To date, who have the Bruins lost purely because they couldn't afford him under the Cap?  I mean guys they had and had to let walk, or guys we can say with some certainty that they would have been able to add via UFA if they hadn't signed these deals?  The only guy I can think of is Kessel, and that turned out OK.

    Point being - until Chiarelli is hamstrung in making a move because he has no cap room and his contracts are unmoveable, I'll wait and see.  There are plenty of creative ways to move players and contracts to free up space, especially if you have draft assets and prospects to work with.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    These posts are a laugh a minute. Some very good comments, and then some way out. Bergie deserves to be extended. Chara will be, but I do not agree with his smartness, just ask Kreji how he liked the pass to forget. speedy wings really make him look bad, and being so big, he often loses the puck in his feet. Yes he is a linchpin of Julien's defensive plan to keep everything to the outside, unless, like the Flyers, big bodies crash the net. The game has evolved to speed and skating, and we have all seen Chara lumbering. Guess I would like to see a more mobile defense with more speed like Hunwick when he is on his game, with the emphasis on WHEN, as he does lose confidence at times. Look at Neidermeyer, coffee, and Orr. Not real big, but they always controlled their game and did not allow the netcrashers time to crash as the puck was moving the other way quickly.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Orrthebest. Show Orrthebest's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    I can not answer the poll because it depends on what each player is asking for.  Bergeron was paid for potential in his current deal, since his concussion it is doubtful he will ever live up to that potential.  I would love to keep him if he takes a small pay cut on his next deal. 

    As for Chara he needs to sign a long term front loader deal to lower his cap hit (a deal similiar to the one Savard signed).

    They are both important players and I would like them to stay but PC has to stop overpaying players.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from mannyortez3424. Show mannyortez3424's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    Both are too important at this point to not re-sign...
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dc-bruins-fan. Show dc-bruins-fan's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    Two things that should be factored in when considering Chiarelli's past contracts:

    1) PC is still a relatively green-GM. Only has 4 years of GM experience, despite being an A-GM for a while in Ottawa.

    2) The Bruins were not a "glam" franchise when he took over. He had to overspend to attract/keep decent players.

    Both of these factors are way less relevant now than when PC took over (so the Ference signing is brutal no matter how you look at it), but these two things should be considered before people bash PC for poor signings. Not that he hasn't made any, but let's give the guy a break as he grows (has grown) into his job.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: Does Chara and Bergeron get extensions past 2010-2011 season?

    I guess I expect more from my GM, although I can excuse a few early mistakes.  That is what makes the Ference signing so maddening...maybe it is part of a broader plan and I should wait to see how it plays out. 

    Either way, this is the NHL, not some men's beer-league team, so the GM doesn't get many "mulligans", nor should he.  If PC wasn't up to the job, then it is on the Jacobs family for hiring him in the first place.  If he was "green" as you suggest, perhaps they should have assigned him a veteran player-personnel guy to advise him instead of Sweeney and Neely.  Maybe they should not have been so quick to jettison Jeff Gorton.  Gorton acquired Tuukka for Raycroft, not PC. 

    PC's future as an NHL executive will be largely shaped by how he does in the next two drafts and how he handles his current/pending UFA & RFA's.  This is a critical time for this franchise as it will soon be shaped for the next several years, I hope PC is up to the challenge.
     
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