Gave up way too much

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    Michael Ryder's 6 NHL seasons : 470 Games - 144 Goals - 149 Assists - 293 points Nathan Horton's 6 NHL seasons : 422 Games - 142 Goals - 153 Assists - 295 points Anyone think that PC can get a first round pick in exchange for Ryder ?
    Posted by RMiller87


    They play a different game, so their stats aren't really all that easy to compare.  There is also an age difference, and a difference in linemates...and a difference in systems.  Stats are great, but sometimes they don't tell the whole story.

    (and you know this, you just hate the trade so much, you're spinning every stat to compound your argument.)
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from JYaso. Show JYaso's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    Addition by subtraction is big with this trade--- most were begging for Wideman to go-- now the same say we gave up too much--lol. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    Addition by subtraction is big with this trade--- most were begging for Wideman to go-- now the same say we gave up too much--lol. 
    Posted by JYaso


    Exactly !   Get rid of the low compete level stiffs on this team, which Wideman was one of the worst. Thank god you found someone who would take him...he was a total mess on the ice...and about as vanilla as you can get -good riddance

    GTFO
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from IShawnPI. Show IShawnPI's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

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    Youve got to be kiding me. Would any of you trade Ryder for Horton strait up? Il tell you right now theres not one GM in the league that would. Either way comparing Horton and Ryders stats is moot. We traded Horton for Wideman. Wideman had one good year, while Horton has had over 20 goals every season scince his rookie year and only played 60 games in some of those seasons. He is a career +27 on a team that hasnt made the playoffs in over a decade. You go look at Widemans stats and tell me who has been the most consistant player.  The only thing that concerns me with Horton is he has only played a full season twice to this point in his career.

    You people claiming that Wideman is this great puck moving defensemen have zero credibility with people who actually watch the games. That guys was responsible for more turnovers in the offensive zone than all of our D combined. I rarely saw him make a tape to tape pass this season. He could barely handle the puck, wheather it was in his own zone or at the offensive blueline. For a guy that was such a great passer, he sure had a hard time going D to D. How many times did the puck come OUTSIDE the offensive zone trying to make that play?  Tallon is taking a much bigger risk with Wideman than we are with Horton, and thats why we had to give up the #15. Our team just got better and I cant say the same for Florida.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    Michael Ryder's 6 NHL seasons : 470 Games - 144 Goals - 149 Assists - 293 points Nathan Horton's 6 NHL seasons : 422 Games - 142 Goals - 153 Assists - 295 points Anyone think that PC can get a first round pick in exchange for Ryder ?
    Posted by RMiller87



    pretty darn clever miller
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much : Umm, he scored 50 points (+32) at the age of 26 as a defenseman. Watch hockey much?
    Posted by russgriswold


    Umm, he scored 30 points (-14) at the age of 27 as a defenseman.  Watch last season much?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much : They play a different game, so their stats are really all that easy to compare.  There is also an age difference, and a difference in linemates...and a difference in systems.  Stats are great, but sometimes they don't tell the whole story. (and you know this, you just hate the trade so much, you're spinning every stat to compound your argument.)
    Posted by Not-A-Shot



    Gotta give miiler his dues here.  Stats should be the basis for a respectful logical debate.  Of course, they indeed don't tell the whole story, but systems, line mates, style, etc are even more subjective.
     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from IShawnPI. Show IShawnPI's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    I do not like that they gave up the # 15 pick..It seemed that other teams interested were not going to give their number 1 pick up for Horton, but the Bruins did. IF the draft is so well stocked, why would we do that ? At least if we were going to get rid of it, I had hoped it would have been bundled with players to move UP in the draft and get a good young player (preferably a winger) I am  not sold on Horton. Bad work ethics are normally what the person is made of..not a good sign. Tallon, I think, got the better of this deal..He can get a sniper at 15 who can produce almost as much as Horton.. I could be dead wrong..we'll see..
    Posted by cactusTony


    Draft a player at #15 that will score 30 goals? Ya, your dead wrong....
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Vilho. Show Vilho's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    the 15 was a chip.  Either we drafted a good prospect (not great) which is a more measurable chip, or you use the pick as a potential chip.  We used it and got a good player that's fine, but I was thinking we were going to stockpile from this draft and even acquire more picks so that's why I was a bit disappointed.  Using the 15 and assets to move up and grab one of the 3 dmen in the top 5 or 6 (still possible) seemed good for next year and moving forward. 
    We DO need wings though.  We have good depth wings, but nobody to be that number 1 wing who requires attention from the best checkers to relieve pressure on the depth wings.  SO, I've changed my stance on the trade lately (as if the trade happened such a long time ago).
    I think with big Horton aboard opposing defenses will focus on him (we really do need to keep Savard I think as he also gets a lot of opposing defensive attention with a good winger).  I think because of this the Krejci line will have a good year and whomever we get at number 2, will have less attention on them to have a good shot at making a strong impact although after watching Thornton, Stamkos et al in their first years, shouldn't expect rookie of the year stats immediately as nice as it would be.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much


    I look at this trade another way, 2 trades.

    Trade 1
    Wideman for Campbell straight up - pretty much a pure salary dump & Begin replacement.  And interesting if a discipline call goes our way.

    Trade 2
    The 15th and next year's pick for Horton.  Horton's probably better than whoever we could get at 15.

    If I were picking - and most of you will call me nuts, I'd take Kabanov at 15 because I think he'll be gone by 32. 

    So you can see I'm happy with this deal from the way I'm looking at it.  And Kabanov will probably be still around at pick 32.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from brandonboys1. Show brandonboys1's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    I do not like that they gave up the # 15 pick..It seemed that other teams interested were not going to give their number 1 pick up for Horton, but the Bruins did. IF the draft is so well stocked, why would we do that ? At least if we were going to get rid of it, I had hoped it would have been bundled with players to move UP in the draft and get a good young player (preferably a winger) I am  not sold on Horton. Bad work ethics are normally what the person is made of..not a good sign. Tallon, I think, got the better of this deal..He can get a sniper at 15 who can produce almost as much as Horton.. I could be dead wrong..we'll see..
    Posted by cactusTony

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from brandonboys1. Show brandonboys1's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    Great players find a way motivate themselves. They don't make excuses about coaching changes and warm climate or whatever. Pretty sure, if Crosby went to Florida he wouldn't have needed a kick in the rear to practice hard. He would n't need Cam Neely to teach him work habits. This trade makes me very nervous b/c of these reasons. I hope I'm wrong. And its funny how people who have been posting how deep this draft is and about guys like Etem and Tinordi who could have been avail at 15, r now saying 15th pick is a crap shoot? Ah yeah, so is Horton. It's a big gamble. Especially considering his price versus the cost efficiency of young kids. Big deal, he's scored 20 for 5 straight years. Hasn't Marco Sturm done that 2? Like i said, hope i'm wrong, but way way too much for this guy.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from timjrollins. Show timjrollins's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much : Umm, he scored 50 points (+32) at the age of 26 as a defenseman. Watch hockey much?
    Posted by russgriswold


    And yet for his career he has posted a -44 over the other 300 games of his career. Watch hockey much outside of 2 seasons ago?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Vilho. Show Vilho's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much : And yet for his career he has posted a -44 over the other 300 games of his career. Watch hockey much outside of 2 seasons ago?
    Posted by timjrollins


    well, one could say Horton had his best year 3 years ago, and regressed each year since.  zing!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TryToBearIt. Show TryToBearIt's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much : Wideman for Horton straight up is not a fair deal..come on?  Wideman's play in his own end was a growing concern.. he never did establish himself as a premier  puck mover to generate offense from the back end, made many mental lapses, panicked with the puck in his own end? on the PP he was horrible and never seemed to hit the net...I got sick and tired of seeing his body being mashed into the boards by oncoming forwards because he was too slow.. I actually feared for his life.. He was starting to be a bit injury prone as well as a result, although I do give him credit for playing thru injuries.. Your not getting Horton for just Wideman.. and this 15th pick , which all of a sudden is this valuable pick for some reason, I dont share that opinion.. I think you can get the same type of player at #32 this year which the Bruins have.. The Draft is that deep.. and Chiarelli did say a while ago that #15 might be in play.. I trust that PC and scouting staff know what they are doing and have weighed all the pro's and con's here ..  I think Tallon and most GMS get too much credit for the draft.... I think in the past few years any GM could have drafted in Chicago what Tallon did.. They were getting luxury picks every year?  How smart do you have to be to draft Towes and Kane with top picks ?
    Posted by cowboys9


    Dude!!!!--do me a favor and read the actual post I wrote more carefully before you disagree...if you go back and read it, i said Wideman for Horton straight up IS A FAIR DEAL for the Bruins, and go on to say I give PC a "B" grade so far for the deal.

    all I did was express some concern about including the #15 pick while also acknowledging that there's no guarantee of getting a good player out of that pick.

    I agree w/all those assesments of Wideman's frustrating play, but it's also true that on a team w/very weak contributions of offense from the D line, Wideman was capable of generating some goals, as he showed in the playoffs.

    Also, my main point was that PC needs to upgarde the D in general in any event, and PC seems to agree as the rumors coming out of the front office now are that PC is putting together another trade package w/picks to get a puck-moving/retrieving defenseman which is EXACTLY what the Bruins need along w/more scoring from wingers...we all hope Horton is a good step in that direction.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    Great players find a way motivate themselves. They don't make excuses about coaching changes and warm climate or whatever. Pretty sure, if Crosby went to Florida he wouldn't have needed a kick in the rear to practice hard. He would n't need Cam Neely to teach him work habits. This trade makes me very nervous b/c of these reasons. I hope I'm wrong. And its funny how people who have been posting how deep this draft is and about guys like Etem and Tinordi who could have been avail at 15, r now saying 15th pick is a crap shoot? Ah yeah, so is Horton. It's a big gamble. Especially considering his price versus the cost efficiency of young kids. Big deal, h's scored 20 for 5 straight years. Hasn't Marco Sturm done that 2? Like i said, hope i'm wrong, but way way too much for this guy.
    Posted by brandonboys1



    But Horton has done well on a bad team, don't you think Crosby's numbers would drop in FLA?  Sounds like Horton is bitter about being on a bad team, and using CryBaby as an example, he'd be 100 times more bitter.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much : He played on an awful St. Louis team when he broke in and then came to an awful rebuilding Bruins team.  Understand contexts much, Jacobs puppet? How many offensive defenseman do you know at age 26 that put up +32s in a season, Einstein?
    Posted by russgriswold


    You sure are hanging on to that +32 as a way to prove the players worth.  That season, Phil Kessel was a +23.  I really wouldn't throw Kessel's name out there for defensive wizard.


     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveRealHockey. Show LoveRealHockey's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much : But Horton has done well on a bad team, don't you think Crosby's numbers would drop in FLA?  Sounds like Horton is bitter about being on a bad team, and using CryBaby as an example, he'd be 100 times more bitter.
    Posted by BadHabitude

    Sorry BadHab.  Always enjoy your perspective, but you cannot remotely compare the intensity and effort that Crosby puts into his game with that of someone like Horton.

    Crosby does cry alot to refs, but he is 100% focused and works his butt of every shift to compliment his incredible skills.

    Crosby may get bitter over calls and losing but never towards the team he's playing for.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveRealHockey. Show LoveRealHockey's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much : He played on an awful St. Louis team when he broke in and then came to an awful rebuilding Bruins team.  Understand contexts much, Jacobs puppet? How many offensive defenseman do you know at age 26 that put up +32s in a season, Einstein?
    Posted by russgriswold

    Haved seen you post here much until recently.  I'm a Leaf Fan first and foremost but watched a lot of Boston this past year (probably my 2nd favorite team, although I enjoyed Chicago's run and their young players).

    The Bruins did NOT give up too much.  I do think they gave up on Wideman too early, but a 15th round pick is pretty much a crap shoot and the 3rd rounder is almost insignificant.

    This is very much Wideman for Horton and a GOOD deal for both teams.  Wideman needed to get away from Boston and will do well in Florida.  Horton needed a new start and playing in Boston will be a better fit for him.  Only concern with Horton is that he's had a lot of injuries.  I don't think he's a 30+ scorer any longer, but 20-25 goals is reasonable.

    Wideman has his plus's (I think he was the best Bruin in the playoffs next to Krecji) and he has his shortcomings.

    He was, after all, an 8th round pick.

    In Horton you get some baggage, but you get some upside potential on scoring from the wing which the Bruins needed.  Also a 3rd pick overall when he was drafted.

    Couple that with more moves the PC will likely make and I think this deal makes sense from a Bruin perspective.

    I'd rather they didn't get better given they are in the Leaf's division, but objectively speaking, I think this was a good gamble to take for PC.

    No way can you consider this a steal for anyone.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveRealHockey. Show LoveRealHockey's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much : Haved seen you post here much until recently.  I'm a Leaf Fan first and foremost but watched a lot of Boston this past year (probably my 2nd favorite team, although I enjoyed Chicago's run and their young players). The Bruins did NOT give up too much.  I do think they gave up on Wideman too early, but a 15th round pick is pretty much a crap shoot and the 3rd rounder is almost insignificant. This is very much Wideman for Horton and a GOOD deal for both teams.  Wideman needed to get away from Boston and will do well in Florida.  Horton needed a new start and playing in Boston will be a better fit for him.  Only concern with Horton is that he's had a lot of injuries.  I don't think he's a 30+ scorer any longer, but 20-25 goals is reasonable. Wideman has his plus's (I think he was the best Bruin in the playoffs next to Krecji) and he has his shortcomings. He was, after all, an 8th round pick. In Horton you get some baggage, but you get some upside potential on scoring from the wing which the Bruins needed.  Also a 3rd pick overall when he was drafted. Couple that with more moves the PC will likely make and I think this deal makes sense from a Bruin perspective. I'd rather they didn't get better given they are in the Leaf's division, but objectively speaking, I think this was a good gamble to take for PC. No way can you consider this a steal for anyone.
    Posted by LoveRealHockey

    Sorry, meant to say 15 pick overall is pretty much a crap shoot (not 15th rounder which is pretty much crap..........actually I don't think they even go that far do they?)
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from crono420. Show crono420's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    Wideman was a great D man humbled by a bad offense last year. I don't blame him one bit and think he was still out best Dman for the future offensively.

    I am ok with the trade since we got Horten, who gives a hoot about the 15th pick. Zack Hammill was 8th, do we play him. NO

    All is all it was a move to get a better finisher and thats what we have. I will miss Wideman. Anybody who says he is a bad player is full of BS and doesn't know hockey

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much : So what? You sound like Harry Sinden when he'd trade for or draft someone, rave about them, and then when they didn't morph into Orr, Bourque or Neely OR when it came time to pay them, he'd scapegoat them out of town picking on a flaw in their game. Show me a 5 tool (baseball term) player and I'll show you a HOFer.  You can't expect every good or very good player in black and gold to be that incredible all the time. It doesn't matter anyway. Sinden could have had Gretzky in his prime and he would have complained when had to pay him. There's always an excuse or an "out" so to speak for Jacobs's puppets. This is the irrational mentality some Bruins fans have now. You have become so brainwashed because you want to see a Cup here so badly, you can't even see straight. You are a Jacobs minion. That's what you and many fans are because you know you have to take that side in order to justify your loyalty.  Well, to you and others who have been duped for 35 years, good luck. Why did Chia even draft Kessel if he thought he was a defensive liability as a winger? Answer that one. 
    Posted by russgriswold


    Thanks for the analysis.  Of course, this is all coming from a guy who thinks Byfuglien is a better hockey player than Nathan Horton.  As for what I believe, or what I know, well, let's just stick to hockey, ok?  It'l be better for you.

    But honestly, you are hanging your hat on Wideman's +32.  If Kessel was +23 that season, how can you use it as a talking point?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveRealHockey. Show LoveRealHockey's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much : Fair enough. Good post. I am diehard Bruins and hockey fan, just disgusted at the Jacobs infused crap I keep seeing here. It just doesn't end. Both are teams have inept management.  I think we can agree there. When the Wirtz Family beats you to the punch, you know you are in trouble.
    Posted by russgriswold

    I'm not 100% sold on PC, but he's growing on me.  I think he seems pretty calculated and patient.  Burke, although a great GM in my opinion, but still somewhat over-rated, appears to be less than patient and always looking for the big deal.  I think Burke is more of a risk-taker (which means you can either hit home runs or you look for new employment).  Leaf fans like risk-takers overall considering the mess we're in as a team so Burke is actually a good fit right now.

    2 different styles, 2 different market pressures.

    Time will tell.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Gave up way too much

    In Response to Re: Gave up way too much:
    Are you going to answer the question? Why did Chiarelli draft Kessel?
    Posted by russgriswold


    You mean the guy who posted a +23 two seasons ago when Wideman posted a +32?  I don't know why.  You'll have to ask him.  I would guess because the guy is a dynamite goal scorer.  I really can't say for certain, as I don't have direct access to his brain.




     
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