goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from bruinsking. Show bruinsking's posts

    goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    san Jose stated they were going with a cheap goalie because Chicago won with one. Nav's went to Russia .  To all the goalies in the nhl you are the ones who will take the pay cuts that is quite obvious. Last year was a fluke . The reason chicago won with at best an average goalie is because philly's goalie was awful. And remember washington lost because of poor goaltending. Boston was winning with good goaltending till rask tired or what ever happened I am hoping a great goalie wins this year. The NHL is suppossed to be the best  the players in the world and now we are seeing the good goalies leave for other places. And we will see more leave.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    One aging goaltender looking for his last big contract returning to his home country to cash in doesn't really signify the mass exodus of goaltenders.  I would say the Caps loss was more due to great goaltending on the other side, as the Caps only managed three goals in the final three games.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Raskman. Show Raskman's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    It really seems that the Detroit model is catching on around the league.  Chicago winning with cheaper netminding just sealed it.  It's funny how we thought that if the Hawks tanked that they would be knocking on our door begging for TT and now that they've won they killed the market for him.  Kinda sick when you think about it.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    It really seems that the Detroit model is catching on around the league.  Chicago winning with cheaper netminding just sealed it.  It's funny how we thought that if the Hawks tanked that they would be knocking on our door begging for TT and now that they've won they killed the market for him.  Kinda sick when you think about it.
    Posted by Raskman


    The market was to be flooded no matter who won the Cup.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from stillallbost08. Show stillallbost08's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    just as well...I want TT on the bruins for at least 1 more year
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Raskman. Show Raskman's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world : The market was to be flooded no matter who won the Cup.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    But the three biggest names/salaries on that list...Nabokov, Turco, and Thomas didn't get near the attention that they would've in year's past.  Flooded market or not, the contracts signed by netminders were small.  Not one UFA goalie signed for more then 2 million.  I'd say teams were looking to save money and they are doing it at the goaltending position.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from biggskye. Show biggskye's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

       The goalie is the most important player on any team.
    The problem for them, is that the supply of quality goalies exceeds the demand, so GMs are able to play hardball with them.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Raskman. Show Raskman's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
       The goalie is the most important player on any team. The problem for them, is that the supply of quality goalies exceeds the demand, so GMs are able to play hardball with them.
    Posted by biggskye


    If they were playing hardball they would've forced the top goalies to take less.  They chose to sign lesser players.  San Jose is going with Niittymakki and Greiss.  The Flyers with Leighton and Boucher.  The only team that I think got a deal was Atlanta getting Mason for under 2M. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    So it ever was in the NHL, going back to the days when no one would waste a 1st round pick on a goalie because they were all space cases and there was no way to predict who would be an NHL star and who would be Blaine Lacher.  Only 7 goalies went in the first round between 1980 and 1990; three are Hall of Famers who won multiple cups, one was an all-star who took his team to the finals, one had a solid career, and two are busts.  That changed in the 90s and more teams started picking goalies earlier, with the predictable result that more first round goalies fizzled.

    What makes me laugh when I look at Wilson's comments and this new trend is just how many people have laughed at the old strategy of not drafting goalies early.  With a chuckle of superiority, some analyst (and so probably a former goaltender) says: goaltender is the most important position on the ice, but you're not willing to draft a goalie?  Madness!  So what does that says about a strategy that proposes saving money by skimping on your goaltender?

    For your perusal:

    First Goalie Drafted by year:

    1980 - Don Beaupre (37th; Kelly Hrudey went with the next pick)
    1981 - Grant Fuhr (8th)
    1982 - Ken Wregget (45th; Hextall went in the 6th round, Mike Craig in the 10th)
    1983 - Tom Barasso (5th; good year for goalies, but only Barasso was taken before the third round - at least 6 goalies taken this year played 400 games, Tretiak was taken by Mtl in the 7th, Hasek by Chicago in the 10th)
    1984 - Craig Billington (23rd; second round at that time - no other goalie until 42, last pick of the second round)
    1985 - Sean Burke (24th; Gamble 25th, Whitmore 26th, Richter 28th - a genuine run)
    1986 - Shawn Simpson (60th; Simpson never played a game, but the 61st pick, Jim Hrivnak, played 85 games.  Washington drafted both of them.  This was a truly awful year for goalies - John Blue is top 5 in terms of games played!)
    1987 - Jimmy Waite (8th; next goalies were Tabaracci and Fitzpatrick at 26 and 27)
    1988 - Jason Muzzatti (21st; incredibly, Muzzatti played 62 games and had 61 Pims - more pims/game played than Billy Smith, but not even close to Hextall.  This was another awful goalie year with Stephane Fiset going in the second and a run of mediocre back-ups in the third.)
    1989 - Olaf Kolzig (19th; DaFoe and Mike Parson in the second round, John Tannerr in the third - that's it for the first three rounds.  The top two of the four were taken by the Capitals.  Second time they've taken the first two goalies back to back in four years.)
    1990 - Trevor Kidd (11th), Martin Brodeur (20thfirst time two goalies have gone in the first round in the decade - start of a change?)

    Goalies in the first round post 1990:
    91 (0), 92 (0), 93 (Thibeault), 94 (4; Storr, Fichaud, Ryabchikov!!, Cloutier), 95 (4; Giguere, Boucher, Biron, Denis), 96 (Hillier), 97 3; Luongo, Noronen, Damphousse), 98 (2; Desrochers, Chouinard), 99 (3; Finley, Ahonen, Ouellet). 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world : But the three biggest names/salaries on that list...Nabokov, Turco, and Thomas didn't get near the attention that they would've in year's past.  Flooded market or not, the contracts signed by netminders were small.  Not one UFA goalie signed for more then 2 million.  I'd say teams were looking to save money and they are doing it at the goaltending position.
    Posted by Raskman


    No one can say how much attention Thomas got. 

    Nabokov didn't bother to wait around.  He quickly bolted for home.

    Turco stinks.

    If Kiprusoff and the Flames had won the Cup, would any of the above statements be different?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Raskman. Show Raskman's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world : No one can say how much attention Thomas got.  Nabokov didn't bother to wait around.  He quickly bolted for home. Turco stinks. If Kiprusoff and the Flames had won the Cup, would any of the above statements be different?
    Posted by Not-A-Shot



    That's the point.  When Calgary went on their run Kiprusoff was not a highly paid goalie.  It was pre-cap so it's a bit of a moot point.

    The Pens won with Fleury at 5 million and the Ducks won with Giguere at a little under 5, but the other Cup winning goalies since the lockout were Ward in his rookie year, Osgood being paid for being Osgood, and Niemi making under a million.  The finalists also reflect the trend.  Ottawa (Emery), Detroit (Osgood), Philadelphia (Leighton/Boucher), Edmonton (Roloson).  Out of all of those teams only Roloson was paid decently.  GM's are taking notice that a successful team can be built with cheaper goaltending. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    Raskman you really called the goalie market this summer on previous posts as I argued there would be a market for Thomas there just isn't right now. Were N0.4BobbyOrr convinced me that the Thomas market will be this winter with injuries, Nittymaki failing miserably as I don't think he'll handle the pressure that well, Dan Ellis in Tampa ? If I'm a Lighting fan I'd be very worried and Atlanta could be another place as I see Mason having to handle way too many shots a game.

    Me thinks PC fielded allot of inquires but just didn't like the return value just yet or the other team wanted Chiarelli to take too much salary back. This winter PC will be more in charge of what comes back Boston's way.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from biggskye. Show biggskye's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world : If they were playing hardball they would've forced the top goalies to take less.  They chose to sign lesser players.  San Jose is going with Niittymakki and Greiss.  The Flyers with Leighton and Boucher.  The only team that I think got a deal was Atlanta getting Mason for under 2M. 
    Posted by Raskman


    Refusing to pay a goalie big money, and signing a cheaper option, is what I was calling hardball.
    Short of forcing a player to sign a contract with a gun to his head, how would they "force the top goalies to take less"?
    Fernandez, last year, would not take a pay cut, and couldn't get a job.
    This year, Turco may be in the same boat.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Raskman. Show Raskman's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world : Refusing to pay a goalie big money, and signing a cheaper option, is what I was calling hardball. Short of forcing a player to sign a contract with a gun to his head, how would they "force the top goalies to take less"? Fernandez, last year, would not take a pay cut, and couldn't get a job. This year, Turco may be in the same boat.
    Posted by biggskye


    Although I disagree with your interpretation of hardball negotiations I hear where you're coming from.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BruWingFan. Show BruWingFan's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    So it ever was in the NHL, going back to the days when no one would waste a 1st round pick on a goalie because they were all space cases and there was no way to predict who would be an NHL star and who would be Blaine Lacher.  Only 7 goalies went in the first round between 1980 and 1990; three are Hall of Famers who won multiple cups, one was an all-star who took his team to the finals, one had a solid career, and two are busts.  That changed in the 90s and more teams started picking goalies earlier, with the predictable result that more first round goalies fizzled. What makes me laugh when I look at Wilson's comments and this new trend is just how many people have laughed at the old strategy of not drafting goalies early.  With a chuckle of superiority, some analyst (and so probably a former goaltender) says: goaltender is the most important position on the ice, but you're not willing to draft a goalie?  Madness!  So what does that says about a strategy that proposes saving money by skimping on your goaltender? For your perusal: First Goalie Drafted by year: 1980 - Don Beaupre (37th; Kelly Hrudey went with the next pick) 1981 - Grant Fuhr (8th) 1982 - Ken Wregget (45th; Hextall went in the 6th round, Mike Craig in the 10th) 1983 - Tom Barasso (5th ; good year for goalies, but only Barasso was taken before the third round - at least 6 goalies taken this year played 400 games, Tretiak was taken by Mtl in the 7th, Hasek by Chicago in the 10th) 1984 - Craig Billington (23rd; second round at that time - no other goalie until 42, last pick of the second round) 1985 - Sean Burke (24th; Gamble 25th, Whitmore 26th, Richter 28th - a genuine run) 1986 - Shawn Simpson (60th; Simpson never played a game, but the 61st pick, Jim Hrivnak, played 85 games.  Washington drafted both of them.  This was a truly awful year for goalies - John Blue is top 5 in terms of games played!) 1987 - Jimmy Waite (8th ; next goalies were Tabaracci and Fitzpatrick at 26 and 27) 1988 - Jason Muzzatti (21st ; incredibly, Muzzatti played 62 games and had 61 Pims - more pims/game played than Billy Smith, but not even close to Hextall.  This was another awful goalie year with Stephane Fiset going in the second and a run of mediocre back-ups in the third.) 1989 - Olaf Kolzig (19th ; DaFoe and Mike Parson in the second round, John Tannerr in the third - that's it for the first three rounds.  The top two of the four were taken by the Capitals.  Second time they've taken the first two goalies back to back in four years.) 1990 - Trevor Kidd (11th), Martin Brodeur (20th ;  first time two goalies have gone in the first round in the decade - start of a change?) Goalies in the first round post 1990: 91 (0), 92 (0), 93 (Thibeault), 94 (4; Storr, Fichaud , Ryabchikov !!, Cloutier), 95 (4; Giguere, Boucher, Biron, Denis), 96 (Hillier), 97 3; Luongo, Noronen, Damphousse), 98 (2; Desrochers, Chouinard), 99 (3; Finley, Ahonen, Ouellet). 
    Posted by Bookboy007


    Additionally, Patrick Roy wasn't picked until the 3rd round in 1984.

    Goalies are tough to draft beause so much of their game develops later in their careers. Most don't hit their prime until they are in their early to mid 20's. The biggest reason is the level of mental toughness required to be an elite goalie. You can have all the athletic skill in the world but if you can't stay mentally tough you will fail.

    Last year's Cup finals was a battle of mediocrity between the pipes. Neither goalie is a "stud" goalie. Basically it came down to which one made the fewer mistakes. I'm a firm believer in the goaltender being the single most important player on the team. Your chances of winning are much better if you have a goalie who is consistently keeping you in the game and not giving up the soft goals.  
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world : That's the point.  When Calgary went on their run Kiprusoff was not a highly paid goalie.  It was pre-cap so it's a bit of a moot point. The Pens won with Fleury at 5 million and the Ducks won with Giguere at a little under 5, but the other Cup winning goalies since the lockout were Ward in his rookie year, Osgood being paid for being Osgood, and Niemi making under a million.  The finalists also reflect the trend.  Ottawa (Emery), Detroit (Osgood), Philadelphia (Leighton/Boucher), Edmonton (Roloson).  Out of all of those teams only Roloson was paid decently.  GM's are taking notice that a successful team can be built with cheaper goaltending. 
    Posted by Raskman


    You are terribly confused by salary.  It's not a player's salary that wins or losses, it's the player himself.  It doesn't matter what Cam Ward was being paid.  It matter what Cam Ward did between the pipes. 

    In relation to your trend for finalists, Ottawa, Philly and Edmonton lost.  There's your trend.


     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Raskman. Show Raskman's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world : You are terribly confused by salary.  It's not a player's salary that wins or losses, it's the player himself.  It doesn't matter what Cam Ward was being paid.  It matter what Cam Ward did between the pipes.  In relation to your trend for finalists, Ottawa, Philly and Edmonton lost.  There's your trend.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    The point was that once to choose to pay a goalie a large salary you lose that salary from other positions.  The player doesn't change, but the make up of the team does. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world : The point was that once to choose to pay a goalie a large salary you lose that salary from other positions.  The player doesn't change, but the make up of the team does. 
    Posted by Raskman


    Chicago had Huet on their roster last season, and he was carrying a large salary, so to support this point, you really can't use Chicago as an example.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Raskman. Show Raskman's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world : Chicago had Huet on their roster last season, and he was carrying a large salary, so to support this point, you really can't use Chicago as an example.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    Geez...I hope Chicago is the model.  We are going into the season with a very similar situation in net.  Veteran goalie getting paid large dollars after a couple of successful seasons and young Finnish goalie making a fraction of the amount.  Scary how similar it is.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Raskman. Show Raskman's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    Wow...for a giggle I checked out TT's career stats to Huets and they are scary close:


                      GS          MIN          W          L      OTL/Ties     GAA       Save %
    Thomas         252        15068        126        91        35          2.61         .918
    Huet             250        15261        129        90        32          2.46         .913


    That's freaky.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    It really seems that the Detroit model is catching on around the league.  Chicago winning with cheaper netminding just sealed it.  It's funny how we thought that if the Hawks tanked that they would be knocking on our door begging for TT and now that they've won they killed the market for him.  Kinda sick when you think about it.
    Posted by Raskman

    Creighton looked good as well in the Philly net.  Good defense beats a good offense, a good defense also means you don't have to have the best of goalies.  

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    isla - I'm not sure it follows that you don't have the best of goalies if you have a good defense.  Do you mean that you can invest more in your defense if you only pay for a good but not great goaltender?  I think the jury's out on that one.  If you look at the teams that made the finals despite having less-than-stellar goaltenders (as opposed to goaltending, because Fleury, Osgood, and Leighton, all raised their games to some degree), they're teams with some outstanding offensive players - Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Holmstrom; Malkin, Crosby, Staal; Richards, Briere, Giroux, Carter.  I don't think Niemi raised his game; I think that was Kane, Toews, Sharp, Keith, and a timely burst by Byfuglien.  

    Given that part of the equation, I wonder if the trend is headed full Oiler - ride of the valkyries type offense, solid D who can move the puck, and a goaltender who might not be great against set plays but who thrives against the odd-man rushes you'll be giving up in bushels.  That'd be fun. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    isla - I'm not sure it follows that you don't have the best of goalies if you have a good defense.  Do you mean that you can invest more in your defense if you only pay for a good but not great goaltender?  I think the jury's out on that one.  If you look at the teams that made the finals despite having less-than-stellar goaltenders (as opposed to goaltending, because Fleury, Osgood, and Leighton, all raised their games to some degree), they're teams with some outstanding offensive players - Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Holmstrom; Malkin, Crosby, Staal; Richards, Briere, Giroux, Carter.  I don't think Niemi raised his game; I think that was Kane, Toews, Sharp, Keith, and a timely burst by Byfuglien.   Given that part of the equation, I wonder if the trend is headed full Oiler - ride of the valkyries type offense, solid D who can move the puck, and a goaltender who might not be great against set plays but who thrives against the odd-man rushes you'll be giving up in bushels.  That'd be fun. 
    Posted by Bookboy007

    I was thinking of Lidstrom's impact in Detroit.  Chara imo serves the same purpose on the Bruins albeit not as proficient as Niklas.  Totally agree on the offense taking pressure off of the defense and goaltending.  Capitulation on these boards is rare, so mea culpa, my quick statement was in respect to the Bs last season.  CJs system did in fact keep the team in contention.  The offense lines were seemingly in constant flux.  CJ now has to hope for less injuries and the emergence of a forward who put the puck in 2010.  Is that possible?  Probably not, imo the Bs defense next year is not too mobile so the offensive change sought by management may not be prolific.  To add, I was genuinely shocked Pittsburg won the Cup in 09.  Their defense was lacking with an average goaltender. Crosby and Malkin were pretty impressive.  Lastly, the "new NHL" really needs to be defined in a regular season and the playoffs.  The offense rules in the playoffs in comparison to the regular season.  Book, random thoughts, hope the explanation is clear enough.  

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    Clear enough, isla.  And if you think about the struggles Pittsburgh had in '09 and the Flyers had in '10, there might be a trend there regarding the success of defense-first teams in the regular season, talent-first teams in the playoffs.  Ideally, this year's Bruins are in better shape to be like the Wings of '08 and play sound, defense-first hockey during the regular season, then turn loose the dogs for the playoffs.

    Come to think of it, didn't NJ win their last Cup by recognizing Julien wasn't the guy they needed for the playoffs, milking his system to the end of the regular season, then bringing in a guy who played on some high-octane teams to guide them through the playoffs?
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Raskman. Show Raskman's posts

    Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world

    In Response to Re: goalies take the pay hit in tight cap world:
    Clear enough, isla.  And if you think about the struggles Pittsburgh had in '09 and the Flyers had in '10, there might be a trend there regarding the success of defense-first teams in the regular season, talent-first teams in the playoffs.  Ideally, this year's Bruins are in better shape to be like the Wings of '08 and play sound, defense-first hockey during the regular season, then turn loose the dogs for the playoffs. Come to think of it, didn't NJ win their last Cup by recognizing Julien wasn't the guy they needed for the playoffs, milking his system to the end of the regular season, then bringing in a guy who played on some high-octane teams to guide them through the playoffs?
    Posted by Bookboy007


    No.  The season they fired Claude they were bounced in the second round.
     
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