Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dbg1. Show dbg1's posts

    Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    I was just looking at the stats on Boston's best scorer vs. Toronto's vest scorer and the numbers might supprise you:

    Kessel:  has played 56 games this season and had 26 goals
    Sturm:  has played 60 games and has 21 goals

    Pretty close for having only a 4 game difference considering that Strum is on a team that has the worst offense in the league.  However, the amazing statistic that jumps out is the +-

    Kessel has a -4
    Sturm has a +12

    Wow; a -4 vs. a +12

    Just something to think about.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from stingerjp. Show stingerjp's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    Good comparison Dbg1.  I think that Sturm is more of a complete player-he plays better in both zones while PK has the big shot and moves that everyone fell in love with.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SylvesterMexicano. Show SylvesterMexicano's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    Kessel's Shots 245  Shot% 10.2 BAD Sturm's Shots 165 S% 12.7 Good!

    Phil really helps his team with hits n giveaways as well...

    Player    GP    Hits    BkS    MsS    GvA     TkA
    Sturm     61     60      22      50       19       25

    Kessel    56     10      12       87       38      20

    Too bad Sturm hasn't had Bergeron healthy all year his stats would be better. Nobody has to remind Marco to be physical, useless wrist shots form the point or taking the puck from your opponent with a hit.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats


    Let me go on record to say that I did not start this thread or contribute any stats to it, however I approve of its content.  Thank you.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveRealHockey. Show LoveRealHockey's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    In Response to Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats:
    I was just looking at the stats on Boston's best scorer vs. Toronto's vest scorer and the numbers might supprise you: Kessel:  has played 56 games this season and had 26 goals Sturm:  has played 60 games and has 21 goals Pretty close for having only a 4 game difference considering that Strum is on a team that has the worst offense in the league.  However, the amazing statistic that jumps out is the +- Kessel has a -4 Sturm has a +12 Wow; a -4 vs. a +12 Just something to think about.
    Posted by dbg1

    I like Sturm, but wouldn't the Bruins be better off if they had, had both (like they did last year?).  Sturm is not a 1st string RW in the league, Kessel is emerging as one.

    Stats can be twisted just about any way you like to make a point.  I think Bruins got great value for Kessel (whether he wanted to stay or not), although it still has to be realized based on who they get in the draft.

    Here's how I would see it.

    Kessel (25 goals and 23 assists for 48 points) in 56 games (playing on the 2nd to worst team in the league with a rookie centerman Bozak now, Stajan earlier).

    Sturm (played mostly with Savard and/or Bergeron) has 21 goals and 14 assists for a total of 35 points (13 less).

    Sturm is 31, Kessel is 22.

    Sturm is a better 2-way player, but offensively it's not close.  You switch teams, with Sturm playing on the Leafs and Kessel playing with Savard or Bergeron you'd see an even more significant point gap.  Kessel hasn't even reached his prime yet, Sturm is likely past his.  Plus/minus is sometimes misleading (didn't wideman led the league last year?).  Bruins are a much better overall defensive team then the leafs and have much better goaltending so I would expect a big variance in plus/minus between the Leafs and the Bruins.

    Kessel is a sniper, nothing more, nothing less.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveRealHockey. Show LoveRealHockey's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    Kessel has some weaknesses to be sure.  He is NOT a physical player and defense isn't his forte.  I'd be the first to agree.  At this stage of his career I don't think he warranted 2 first round picks and a 2nd pick.

    Having said that, he is there to score goals and be an offensive threat when he's out there.  Exactly what he is doing.  If the Leafs are successful in adding more pieces to compliment what Kessel brings, I think you'll see much bigger numbers as he enters his prime.  The guy is still a kid.

    You can knock much of his game, and I wouldn't argue, but you also have to give him his dues.  He scored 2 absolute laser goals last night and hit the post on two others.  The guy can skate and has been getting a lot of offensive chances, including many against the Bruins, a supposedly good defensive team.




     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from SupportLocal81. Show SupportLocal81's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    I brother... when will it end? Phil the thrill is nill, null and void .. forget him.. he be gone.. not comin  back thru that door and if he does, he'll be old n gray ( no wait..that's Patino-isms) strike that one..

    Mrs Kessell didn't like being yelled at and couldn't handle that so he wanted out.. good riddence.. For as much of an offensive threat as he was, his defensive liability wasn't worth it...  Hope he can carve out a decent career as a Leaf and hope he is never on the B's radar for a return engagement.. BYE BYE PHIL.. Cya..
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from bim09. Show bim09's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    In Response to
     You switch teams, with Sturm playing on the Leafs and Kessel playing with Savard or Bergeron you'd see an even more significant point gap. Posted by LoveRealHockey

    I agree, 100%.  How's Team Germany doing?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucicfan. Show lucicfan's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    LRH dont get me wrong Kessel is a great offensive talent...but look @ his TOI he is always out there. On the Bruins Kessel scored 36 goals playing like 15 mins a game. Yes we could definitely use him this year but we did get great compensation for him. The thing that bugs me the most about Kessel is he builds his stats against weak teams that are not physical like Edmonton last night for an example. If the game get rough Kessel becomes more invisable. Ron Wilson benched him in the Canada US game because of this. I know hitting isnt part of his game but being hit isnt either.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucicfan. Show lucicfan's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    LRH you do have some great opinions and post though for a Leaf fan. Cheers!!
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from marco1001. Show marco1001's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    I hate to say it snce you are seemingly bruin fans but some of u just don;t get it.

    first off stat boy, the + or minus is totally meaningless, it's a stat repevtive of the team furthermore why don u checjk kess +or- of last yr which according to ur theory he was a defensive gm, Also Nash is he a lousy defensive oplayer too , check his plus or minus.

    u sound like a bunch of lawyers trying to defomate the defense in this case Kessel. U just cannoy accept the facy that it was abig mistake and yes we have moved on , moved on to the worse offense iin the league. It does not matter what tor does , fools, it's what kess was doing and would have done here in boston. Where is sav now , looks like he needs kess much more then vice-versa.

    if pc happens to read ur threads, it is music to his ears , he must be saying wow, we gotta  away with this one.

    don't get me wrong, i ilke sturm but do not even compare sturm to kessel, not one gm would take sturm over kess.
    \Btw show facts right - over one projested year kess has 37 goals , sturm 28
    kess is a fdirst liner in any team sturm is NOT, do u understand anything or do u need to constantly grasp at anything to justify his departure . i won't eevn get in truly past great snipers who wer not physical etcc,
    Sav only recently began to play better defensively,

    the kess trade was a mistake, no doubt and it may very well take years for recovery.

    i repeat again it what kess brings to the bruins not what he does for toronto.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Cindy419. Show Cindy419's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    Can't we just get over the fact that Kessel didn't want to be here and now he's not? Why even bother comparing him with anyone on the Bruins? It's pointless.

    In Response to Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats:
    I was just looking at the stats on Boston's best scorer vs. Toronto's vest scorer and the numbers might supprise you: Kessel:  has played 56 games this season and had 26 goals Sturm:  has played 60 games and has 21 goals Pretty close for having only a 4 game difference considering that Strum is on a team that has the worst offense in the league.  However, the amazing statistic that jumps out is the +- Kessel has a -4 Sturm has a +12 Wow; a -4 vs. a +12 Just something to think about.
    Posted by dbg1

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from joeschmo25. Show joeschmo25's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    Wow marco you need to work on your spelling and grammar, some of those mistakes are grade school level. I do agree with you though on the comparison, but I don't think anybody thought Sturm would replace Kessel. Kessel's replacement was always going to be in the picks. Of course nobody knew how bad Toronto would do but I have a feeling Chiarelli was going for a top flight offensive potential player in any circumstance. Sturm isn't Kessel, but he's still doing a good job on this year's team and he didn't cost anything to replace Kessel. 
    I do like the notice that the trade isn't what Kessel does for Toronto, but it's not quite what he does for us. It's what we get for him in return that judges a trade, nothing more, nothing less. If even one of Toronto's picks (doesn't matter which one) can score 30 goals a season then the trade wasn't bad. If we can get two good players out of those picks then the trade is good. All we need is for these players to improve the team, more importantly the scoring department. Kessel can go out and score 50 goals for Toronto but unless it wins them a Cup or takes them deep into the playoffs then the goals are empty. Look at the Thornton deal. I don't like it because we didn't replace the production lost, but Thornton hasn't led a stacked San Jose team to the Cup yet and he didn't lead us to one either.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SylvesterMexicano. Show SylvesterMexicano's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    In Response to Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats:
    Kessel has some weaknesses to be sure.  He is NOT a physical player and defense isn't his forte.  I'd be the first to agree.  At this stage of his career I don't think he warranted 2 first round picks and a 2nd pick. Having said that, he is there to score goals and be an offensive threat when he's out there. Posted by LoveRealHockey


    Remember that for every goal that Kessel is on the ice when the Leafs opponent scores it negates his offensive goal output. Sturm is also a more accurate shooter and doesn't need to take as many shots as Phil does. +12 says volumes about a player as well.

    Bottom line Bergeron healthy Marco has better numbers.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from dbg1. Show dbg1's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    In Response to Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats:
    Can't we just get over the fact that Kessel didn't want to be here and now he's not? Why even bother comparing him with anyone on the Bruins? It's pointless. In Response to Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats :
    Posted by Cindy419


    Cindy
    I agree; but some time I like to stroke the flames...cant post about how good the team is doing this year; so have to find other content to write about. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Cindy419. Show Cindy419's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    Okay, I'll accept that, but let's find something else to debate. How about do we stink this year because of injuries or cushy contracts? In Response to Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats:
    In Response to Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats : Cindy I agree; but some time I like to stroke the flames...cant post about how good the team is doing this year; so have to find other content to write about. 
    Posted by dbg1

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from bim09. Show bim09's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    Imo, a combination of injuries and no top line.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SupportLocal81. Show SupportLocal81's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    IMO.. when you have a team that struggles to score goals and your top goal scorers or their setup men get injured, you then depend on low scoring games that you hope to win by playing solid 'shutfown' defense.. If that fails... you lose and everyone points fingers.. I don't believe the contract players get has much ( if any ) bearing on the results. These guys are pros and sometimes you have to over pay to keep players from moving on ..that's part of keeping core players home...It happens all the time.. management has to identify the value of a player and pay them what they are worth to the team. If that playetr fails to come close to that level ..then someone screwed up. IMHO, I think ( but this wil never happen) that all players should get a standard base salary and then set them up with incentives.. both personal and team based... I know that there is some of that going on but not enough.. I understand that my idea is not a novel one and that it's pretty simplistic but you must admit that drive to get those incentives will bring out the best in these players.. Sorry for running off track a bit in this thread... but am sick n tired pof analysis paralysis.. over-analysing stats to make a point.. doesn't always hold water.. Again..just my humble opinion..
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SupportLocal81. Show SupportLocal81's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    and I type kinda lousy too ! LOL ( note to self: read what I wrote BEFORE posting..LOL) Try typing with these sausage fingers...Laughing
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dbg1. Show dbg1's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    I am a huge fan of incentive based contracts; the only problem is how do you count that against the salary cap?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dbg1. Show dbg1's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    In Response to Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats:
    Okay, I'll accept that, but let's find something else to debate. How about do we stink this year because of injuries or cushy contracts? In Response to Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats :
    Posted by Cindy419


    Sure; but it is so much more fun pissing off the PK disciples. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    In Response to Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats:
    I am a huge fan of incentive based contracts; the only problem is how do you count that against the salary cap?
    Posted by dbg1


    I think depending on which incentives, they count against the following year, or, the cap is computed daily, so chances are they come into play when you hit them, but players want guaranteed money, who wants to play for incentives when a hit can end your season
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveRealHockey. Show LoveRealHockey's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    In Response to Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats:
    In Response to Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats : I think depending on which incentives, they count against the following year, or, the cap is computed daily, so chances are they come into play when you hit them, but players want guaranteed money, who wants to play for incentives when a hit can end your season
    Posted by rolerhoky19

    I agree.  Most players want/get guaranteed money.

    I wish they'd change the Salary Cap rules though.
    For instance, if you draft the player you should only count, say, 75% of the contract towards the cap.  This would reward teams that draft well and hold on to their players.  It also helps teams retain their players when they become RFA or UFA, in that the team that doesn't draft the player has to count 100% of the salary against the cap.  I'm thinking if this was the rule, the Bruins would have retained Kessel since his cap hit would have been 75% of $5 million (or $3.75 million)

    I also think you should allow teams to exceed the cap by, say, 5-10%, with a penalty.  The teams would have to surrender dollar for dollar for every dollar over the cap and the money gets distributed to all the other teams that were below the cap.  This way you can acquire 1 or 2 pieces if you're close and want to make a run in a given year without having to necessarily trade dollar for dollar.

    There has to be some changes.  The trade deadline is a bust and most teams have no flexibility to make any moves.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    LRH, I think to be fair though, the bruins as you stated were over compensated, and saved the 5 million. assuming that sturm (who did not play last season) and bergeron would bounce back and would compensate for that loss, I think those are both fair assements,  marco and bergeron combined for 15 goals last season.. They have 35 so far.. so thats a 20 over a year ago (or 5 less then the team would seemingly have with kessel, no sturm, and bergeron playing like last year), the idea was to get 30 over a year ago and off set kessel's loss.  The fall off of the rest of the player, injuries etc, was not planned for.. Wheeler/Ryder under performing chara and lucic season long injuries, chestry problems etc..

    The bruins put 7? guys over 20 goals last season, had one with 19 and one 1ith 17, and playing better as of late maybe.. 6 guys hit 20 goals, with paille and lucic maybe getting to around 15??  If kessel was here this year, his totals would be down from last year, and would be less (though a higher plus minus) then what he has accomplished in toronto..
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats

    In Response to Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats:
    In Response to Re: Kessel or Sturm: The shocking stats : I agree.  Most players want/get guaranteed money. I wish they'd change the Salary Cap rules though. For instance, if you draft the player you should only count, say, 75% of the contract towards the cap.  This would reward teams that draft well and hold on to their players.  It also helps teams retain their players when they become RFA or UFA, in that the team that doesn't draft the player has to count 100% of the salary against the cap.  I'm thinking if this was the rule, the Bruins would have retained Kessel since his cap hit would have been 75% of $5 million (or $3.75 million) I also think you should allow teams to exceed the cap by, say, 5-10%, with a penalty.  The teams would have to surrender dollar for dollar for every dollar over the cap and the money gets distributed to all the other teams that were below the cap.  This way you can acquire 1 or 2 pieces if you're close and want to make a run in a given year without having to necessarily trade dollar for dollar. There has to be some changes.  The trade deadline is a bust and most teams have no flexibility to make any moves.
    Posted by LoveRealHockey


    I don't like the modifications to the cap like that.. I think the league does need to be fair though, the cap is artifically lower then it should be because of expansion and teams in poor markets.. you eliminate/move 4-5 NHL teams which are not profitable and the cap would go up right there..Maybe adopt a structure more like football where you can actually cut players and only be liable for there gauranteed money against the cap (big reason football front loads contracts in gauranteed money and salaries increase over the term of the contract)

    Either way kessel wasn't worth 5.25 million at this point, wouldnt have gotten it from the bruins..
     

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