Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wheelhouse46. Show Wheelhouse46's posts

    Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    This is laughable.

    I have lived in dc for 3 years now and i have grown to dislike the crapitals more and more each day. But this isnt out of hate... This is out of reason. Drew Doughty and Duncan Keith are legit contenders, Green on the other hand... In my honest opinion, may be one of the worst defenseman in the entire NHL and the fact that he was nominated for this trophy makes me want to vomit.

    Mike Green is a better All around defenseman than:

    Chara
    Lindstrom
    Pronger
    Orpik
    Markov
    Nedemeiyer
    Erhoff
    Suter
    Campbell
    Weber
    Rafalski

    (myers, boychuk) Kidding... Kinda.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    This has come up before, and I tend to agree - as impressive as his offensive contributions have been, I just don't see it as enough to offset his defensive play.  In terms of goals-against per 60 minutes of icetime, he had 2.36.  For comparison, Wideman had 2.51.  Shockingly though, Keith had 2.77.  Doughty was 1.95 - which is great, but then his offense was way less than Green.

    The kicker for me is comparing when he is on the ice versus off of it.  When he is off of the ice, Washington gave up 2.03 goals per 60 minutes. 
    Ugh I am tired of typing, summery of numbers on behindthenet.ca:
    Washington is much better offensively with Green on the ice, and a bit worse defensively. (Net of +1.41)
    Chicago is somewhat better offensively with Keith on the ice, but also equivalently worse. (Net of -0.06)
    LA is better offensively, and defensively, with Doughty. (net of +.84)

    So the question is, are Green's eye-popping offensive numbers on the league's best offense enough to compensate for his actually making the Caps defense worse compared to Doughty's improving the King's results at both ends of the ice?  I would not choose so, but I will not be at all surprised if Green ends up winning.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikehawkislong69. Show mikehawkislong69's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    There is a reason he was left off team canada. Stevie Y said it himself that green is a liability in his own zone. its easy to put up good numbers when you have ovechkin cherrypicking at the blue line waiting for a breakaway/odd mad rush
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikehawkislong69. Show mikehawkislong69's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    My 3 finalists would have been doughty, keith, and shea weber. Weber is the most underrated d man in the NHL. Green is a joke.

    dennis wideman + good offensive numbers = mike green

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from RichmondHillOntario. Show RichmondHillOntario's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    In Response to Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,:
    My 3 finalists would have been doughty, keith, and shea weber. Weber is the most underrated d man in the NHL. Green is a joke. dennis wideman + good offensive numbers = mike green
    Posted by mikehawkislong69

    Spot on!  Shea Weber is an absolute beast at both ends of the ice.  Unfortunately, he plays in a market where the hockey spotlight does not often shine or his skills would be much better known.  He plays in all crucial moments of the game, something I think I'd heard or read somewhere that Green does not do for the Caps. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxFanInIL. Show SoxFanInIL's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    In Response to Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,:
    This is laughable. I have lived in dc for 3 years now and i have grown to dislike the crapitals more and more each day. But this isnt out of hate... This is out of reason. Drew Doughty and Duncan Keith are legit contenders, Green on the other hand... In my honest opinion, may be one of the worst defenseman in the entire NHL and the fact that he was nominated for this trophy makes me want to vomit. Mike Green is a better All around defenseman than: Chara Lindstrom Pronger Orpik Markov Nedemeiyer Erhoff Suter Campbell Weber Rafalski (myers, boychuk) Kidding... Kinda.
    Posted by Wheelhouse46



    This is exactly what happened last year with the Vezina... you had all of the elite goaltenders (Luongo, Brodeur, Miller, etc, etc) having off-years, injured, whatever and 3 weak candidates, who all lost their #1 jobs at some point the following season, were named finalists and the winner was picked by cutest storyline.  This is how the Careys, etc win awards and become trivia questions.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    Reminds me of the old Paul Coffey debates when he was winning the Norris.  These are unfair comparisons, but if Green's Coffey then Doughty is Bourque - and Bourque would have had even more Norris trophies if Coffey hadn't won based purely on eye-popping numbers.  I like Dr. CC's stats - though they surprise me where Keith is concerned because I like him better than Green.  I wonder if there's a way to see if Keith's numbers are skewed by the Huet factor?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    When Coffee and Leetch were winning they didnt pay attention to their end...

    You can't argue stats...most points and the best +/-.  Sure he isnt a great defender, I will give him an avg nod on that side of things.  But when you can skate and move the puck outta your end the way he does he doesnt need to hammer people through the walls.

    I think its laughable for those who don't think he should win it...does that mean that the MVP won't be in the top 10 scorers in the league...

    I am not a Green fan b/c I like stay at home dmen...but no one can argue the stats side of it...

    And Stevie Y also left off Stampkos...had Canada lost they would have been hammered for leaving them off...

    Green should win the Norris...if you don't like his points then the +/- easily should win you over....and don't use Ovie as an argument...he doesnt like his own end...
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    PS...your list is laughable as well....Erhoff, Orpik and Campbell...seriously...


    C`mon man, the same argument you use against Green and you have Campbell on there...


    I think there should be the Norris and a top defensive dman...then a guy like Orpik would win...

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wheelhouse46. Show Wheelhouse46's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    In Response to Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,:
    PS...your list is laughable as well....Erhoff, Orpik and Campbell...seriously... C`mon man, the same argument you use against Green and you have Campbell on there... I think there should be the Norris and a top defensive dman...then a guy like Orpik would win...
    Posted by shuperman


    Watch a caps game... Take Green off the PP and take him off a line with ov and backstrom. Hes brutal. He continually makes awful passes out of the zone and gets caught deep on a regular basis.

    My list is laughable? So you think green is a norris trophy guy?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikehawkislong69. Show mikehawkislong69's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    In Response to Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,:
    In Response to Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke., : Watch a caps game... Take Green off the PP and take him off a line with ov and backstrom. Hes brutal. He continually makes awful passes out of the zone and gets caught deep on a regular basis. My list is laughable? So you think green is a norris trophy guy?
    Posted by Wheelhouse46


    I agree man. Im watching the habs caps game right now, how hes a norris finalist is beyond me
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    wheel,

    In watch as many caps games as I can for the sheer entertainment they give...so lets take his points, PP time, +/- away...yeah we can do that....I would still want him...he can skate with the best of them...he makes passes look very easy, he is confident, he will take a risk, he hits, he even mixes it up once in a while. 

    Green isn't great in his own end...he gets beat on occasion...but anyone that puts up 20 g's and 70 pts in this NHL is impressive...those are fwd numbers and good ones...

    You can't fault him b/c he gets points...you can't take away Charas game b/c he is a giant...would you say if he was 6' 180 lbs he wouldnt be that good...fact is Green is that good...he puts up very good numbers, most pts and BEST +/- is very impressive...+/- as you are aware has nothing to do with PP...Ovie is pure offense so he can't strengthen your argument...

    Green in my eyes wins hands down...Leetch and Coffee have Norris trophys based entirely on stats...Coffee wasnt nearly as good as Green in his own end...

    Sorry man...your list without Green is laughable...if he isn't at the top of that list its laughable...Campbell and Erhoff are laughable...especially b/c you cripple Green for his d-zone game and then have Campbell on there...

    I truly believe they will have a best defensive D-man some day...its long over due...lots of guys like Phillips/Volchenkov/Orpik who stop more shots than the goalie does go unnoticed...the year Carolina won the cup I was more impressed with Ward than any fwd...the guy was a warrior...blocked shots, hit, you name it...

    Anyway man...its just my opinion...Green is the best of the bunch this year
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    Morph

    we are in the minority...haha...but your post before my last one was bang on...

    lets go bruins...huge game tonight
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from joeschmo25. Show joeschmo25's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    What people are forgetting is that Green's other finalists aren't purely defensive players. Both Doughty and Keith put up similar points to Green, both within 10-15 points of him. What Green doesn't have on those two are the shutdown quality of play they have. We're not talking about somebody who's just reliable in his own end, we're talking about being the best defenseman on your team who can play any role needed. Doughty was the best defenseman on both sides of the puck, logging big minutes and playing on both the power play and penalty kill. Keith was the same way as Doughty. They are the defenseman that you rely on when the game is on the line and you're on the penalty kill. You can't tell me that people feel more comfortable with Green on a penalty kill than Doughty or Keith.

    Yes Green is a dynamic offensive defenseman and an average to decent defensive defenseman, but he's not what Doughty and Keith are. They're both outstanding offensive defenseman, but dynamic shutdown defenseman. If Green is Coffey then Doughty and Keith are a Bourque/ Neidermayer mix.

    You can argue either side and not be wrong, but I think this one goes to Doughty based on the fact that his play carried his team to a playoff spot when they wouldn't have been in the race without him. We all know Washington and Chicago wouldn't have been as good without Green and Keith, but they still would have been playoff teams. I'm predicting that Doughty will begin the first of his several Norris trophy wins this year.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    joe,

    good post and I am not arguing that point...and if you asked me who I would want I would take Keith or Drew over Green anyday and twice on sunday...I think the fact that he has the better "stats" and played on the best team in the league makes him the front runner.

    again...if I could start a team and could have 1 dman it is a no brainer that Drew would be my pick...I think he could be one of the games best ever...his biggest issue has been weight problems...but the kid has so much skill and performs like a 10 yr vet...
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from joeschmo25. Show joeschmo25's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    His numbers for the President's trophy team may very well influence the voters' decisions, but let's hope it's not to put him as the Norris winner. I think he's immensely talented, but definitely benefits from playing with Ovechkin, Semin and Backstrom. I think his greatest asset is his skating ability, as he may be the NHL's best skating defenseman (along with Jay Boumeester). 

    I think the voters will see the truth and make Doughty the winner, it's easy to see how much he's accomplished and his age may in fact be the decision maker. 

    For the record I believe each of the 3 finalists will be Hall of Famers when their careers are over. Washington is beginning to look like the new millenium's version of Gretzky's Oilers, currently sans Stanley Cups. Chicago may win the Cup this year, but I think their goaltending will be their downfall. Los Angeles will, in all likelyhood, be even stronger next year, and continue to get stronger for years to come.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    morph,

    I got hammered a while back for saying the same thing...the awards should be voted on by the players...not some media guys who never laced em up...

    Without Miller the Sabres are the worst team in the East...Miller is the MVP...I actually said he would be up for the award...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    I hate when goalies get the Hart.  The nature of the game dictates that a goalie has greater impact on the game than a forward or defensemen.  For one thing, he's on the ice for 60 minutes.  If goalies are getting considered for the Hart, there has to be some kind of VoRP component (yeah, I know, it's not baseball) - that is, look at a high-average goaltender and ask yourself how much different the Sabres would have been.  Tomas Vokoun, for example, gave up 0.33 more goals per game and had a save % that was only .004 lower than Millers.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    morph,

    again, my words exactly...its the MVP to his team...Take Ovie outta Washington and they could still play well...and did...in fact I believe Backstrom is more important to that team...Same thing with Sid...that team is stacked and would still make the playoffs...without Miller Buffalo would be dreadful...Miller gives the team its identity...he is their unofficial leader...he wins games on his own.  I mean the leagues leading scorers are 1-2-3 in Hart consideration...I don't like that either...

    Anyway...Miller should win the Vezina in a landslide I would hope...
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from MrHulot. Show MrHulot's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    In Response to Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,:
    In Response to Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke., : This is exactly what happened last year with the Vezina... you had all of the elite goaltenders (Luongo, Brodeur, Miller, etc, etc) having off-years, injured, whatever and 3 weak candidates, who all lost their #1 jobs at some point the following season, were named finalists and the winner was picked by cutest storyline.  This is how the Careys, etc win awards and become trivia questions.
    Posted by SoxFanInIL

    Off-years? Brodeur's save percentage in 2008-09 was .916, just like this season, which was apparently good enough to make him a 2010 Vezina candidate (not that I agree with that). Luongo's was .920, better than in 2007-08. Miller's was .918, the best of his NHL career before this season.
    Tim Thomas had a fantastic 2008-09 season and deservedly won the Vezina Trophy, plain and simple. Why even some Bruins fans refuse to accept that is beyond me.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Mike Green is a Norris Finalist. What a joke.,

    Morph, I know it's not just a question of stats, but I think that's where you start the comparison. You want to make it holistic, I'll take shuperman's argument.  The Caps would be better off without Ovechkin than the Sabres without Miller because they have eleven other forwards including three or four very talented players who are still on entry level contracts or who have yet to cash in commensurate with their skill level.  Semin, Backstrom, Fleishmann, Knuble...there's enough talent there that someone's going to score.  Same with Pitt.  Malkin, Staal, Guerin...someone's going to score.  But you could argue that either of these teams could go spiralling down the drain if their goaltending doesn't play at least as well as the opposition's.  If Varlamov doesn't play better than Theodore did in games one and two, the Caps are gone.  If Fleury doesn't get his act together in the back half of game six, the Pingu are facing game 7.  So aren't Fleury and Varlamov more valuable to these teams, as individuals, than Crysby and Ovechkin?

    Add to this that teams usually don't have the luxury of having the reigning Vezina winner as the back-up, and they don't usually have two high-priced goalies, so the drop off from a star goalie to the backup is going to huge - bigger than most any other position, and I find it hard to accept the purist argument about an individual goaltender's "value to the team" because the position is so much more valuable to begin with.

    In Miller's case - he was the starter the last two years and couldn't get basically the same team to the playoffs let alone a division win.  His S% and GAA were  much more pedestrian, too.  No question he's raised his game this year, and I know I'm sick of hearing about how he did it so I hope he's golfing soon (plenty of good times availble tomorrow afternoon!), but I think you have to look at everything Buffalo did to upgrade. Primarily, they got a lot younger and more mobile on D by getting rid of Spacek, Kotalik, and Numminen and bringing in Myers and (ugh) Montador. Their forwards stayed basically the same in terms of both personnel and production, but the one change was huge from a goaltender's perspective - they ditched Afinogenov in favour of Grier.

    All of this to say I can respect what Miller did for his team, and I think he deserves the Vezina.  But I have yet to hear an argument for why goalies should win the Hart unless they have a Hasek-like effect on the game - that is, they're in the heads of 9/10ths of the best players in the world.
     

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