Norris Trophy 2010

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikehawkislong69. Show mikehawkislong69's posts

    Norris Trophy 2010

    Who do you guys think should win and who are your 3 frinalists. In my opinion there are 7 players deserving of the award. Those 7 players are: (no particular order)

    Duncan Keith(Chicago)
    Zdeno Chara(Boston)
    Nicklas Lidstrom(Detroit)
    Tyler Myers(Buffalo)
    Drew Doughty(Los Angeles)
    Chris Pronger(Philadelphia)
    Dan Boyle(San Jose)

    My three finalists are:
    Keith
    Doughty
    Pronger

    My winner is:
    Keith

    What about you guys?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    Don't know if he'll win it but I just love the way Drew Doughty plays so I'm going with him.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from notrolls. Show notrolls's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    Dennis Wideman!!!!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikehawkislong69. Show mikehawkislong69's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    In Response to Re: Norris Trophy 2010:
    id like to see Shea Weber & Ryan Suter be considered...to me they are the key for Nashville being in 5th place in the tough Western Division. and also Mike Green needs to be considered since hes the best offensive D-Man in the league....
    Posted by morphosis1974

    What is the definition of the norris trophy? it is the award that goes to the player who demonstrates the best all around ability to play the position. Why should mike green be considered a norris candidate? You do know why he was left off team canana right? As quoted by Steve Yzerman- "Mike is not strong enough in his own end". Green doesnt even play against the teams top lines, nor shuts them down night in and night out like an elite defensemen should.

    Oh and please do not use the most misleading stat in all of sports to back up green(plus minus). Its not that hard to have a good plus minus when you have ovechkin cherry picking at the blue line waiting for a breakaway/odd man rush

    Oh and heres another scary stat for you crapital lovers. The caps have the 25th best penalty kill. 25th!!!! Yea thats definately an ingrediant for an "elite shutdown defenseman"
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mebackagin. Show mebackagin's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    The big Z he's the best there is at the moment Bobby O would turn him inside and out but at the present he's the best!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from LoveRealHockey. Show LoveRealHockey's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    I think Doughty gets it.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from NumbaFouwer. Show NumbaFouwer's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    I think it's only a 2 horse race for the Norris this year .... Keith and Doughty. Keith probably gets it.
     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jvcardo. Show jvcardo's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    Duncan Keith.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from StanJohnthan. Show StanJohnthan's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    The highest scoring Dman this year, isn't even on the list. 
    Mike Green will be a finalist all with Keith and Doughty.
     Since it is voted on by the writers Doughty will finish 3rd(because he's on the West Coast). As for the other 2 it is a tight race even tho Keith has fallen off since the Olympic break.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from pbergeron37. Show pbergeron37's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    StanJohnthan I recommend you read the entire thread, the award is not for the highest scoring defensemen.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from No4BobbyOrr-GOAT. Show No4BobbyOrr-GOAT's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    Coffey and Leetch would never have had it if not for their scoring, not very good at D, especially when they played here.LOL

    I like Doughty though, then Green who does not get recognition he deserves.

    Myers gets it next year.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BruWingFan. Show BruWingFan's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    My 3 finalists are Doughty, Keith and Lidstrom.

    My vote would be for Keith.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    You people are blind...how does Green not make the list...he is easily the best offensive dman in the league...the fact he is +35 is disgusting...he plays on the NHL's top team(he has a huge play in that).  Sorry Norris trophys were won by guys like Leeth and Coffee...neither great in their end and really didnt have to worry about it b/c they could move the puck with ease...

    The Norris Trophy should be Green's....there are other worthy guys but Chara...come on...stop being a homer...Keith is having an out standing year and would be my second choice...the fact Green was left of the list is laughable...best +/- of the group...more pts, best team...me thinks Green has been snubbed once again
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikehawkislong69. Show mikehawkislong69's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    In Response to Re: Norris Trophy 2010:
    [QUOTE]You people are blind...how does Green not make the list...he is easily the best offensive dman in the league...the fact he is +35 is disgusting...he plays on the NHL's top team(he has a huge play in that).  Sorry Norris trophys were won by guys like Leeth and Coffee...neither great in their end and really didnt have to worry about it b/c they could move the puck with ease... The Norris Trophy should be Green's....there are other worthy guys but Chara...come on...stop being a homer...Keith is having an out standing year and would be my second choice...the fact Green was left of the list is laughable...best +/- of the group...more pts, best team...me thinks Green has been snubbed once again
    Posted by shuperman[/QUOTE]
    Ok, let me start off with this. Plus/minus is the most misleading stat not just in hockey, but in ALL OF SPORTS. Just because your on the ice when your team scores a goal doesnt mean you did anything to contribute to that goal. Vice versa- what if your a defensemen, your doing your job and covering your man, then your defensive partner or backchecking forward doesnt do a good job defensively and a goal is scored. Once again that defenseman was doing his job, but because of his teammates, he gets a minus. Or what about when a defenseman loses his assignment, which should result in a goal, but his @$$ gets saved by his goalie/d partner. Again I think +/- is a stupid stat and it is very misleading. Heres another example- what if your a bruin forward who just came onto the ice, and right as you step on the ice from the bench, dennis wideman makes an errant pass thats picked off and a goal is scored. again, that forward did nothing wrong, but he gets a minus.

    That is, to me, what makes an argument for mike green invalid. people use plus minus in determining how good a player is which is in fact not the case.

    Also, here is something that is VERY, VERY overlooked. On most of green's shift, he has ovechkin, backstrom, knuble/semin as his forward line. Most of the time that forces the opposing team to play its checking line against green and co. That checking line is not really trying to score. Then you have guys like Duncan Keith and Drew Doughty who play 25 minutes a game and are always playing against teams top lines.

    Also ask yourself this shuperman. Lets say you are a coach in game 7 overtime in a playoff series. The opponent is on a 2 on 1/3 on 1 odd man rush. Pick the #1 defenseman you would want to have defending in that situation. If you pick green, I respect your opinion, but id call you crazy.

    Im giving green his credit for his offensive numbers, although I hate anything and everything that has to do with the caps. This is where I give keith/doughty an advantage-  The advantage that DK/DD have over MG defensively is greater than the advantage that MG has over DK/DD offensively.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from cowboys9. Show cowboys9's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    In Response to Re: Norris Trophy 2010:
    [QUOTE]You people are blind...how does Green not make the list...he is easily the best offensive dman in the league...the fact he is +35 is disgusting...he plays on the NHL's top team(he has a huge play in that).  Sorry Norris trophys were won by guys like Leeth and Coffee...neither great in their end and really didnt have to worry about it b/c they could move the puck with ease... The Norris Trophy should be Green's....there are other worthy guys but Chara...come on...stop being a homer...Keith is having an out standing year and would be my second choice...the fact Green was left of the list is laughable...best +/- of the group...more pts, best team...me thinks Green has been snubbed once again
    Posted by shuperman[/QUOTE]

    I agree, Green will win it this year.. having an outstanding season..Keith has gone into a funk after the Olympic break along with the Hawks.. and Doughty just too young right now and a lot of writers in the East dont catch his games ...
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    Mike,

    You are wrong...+/- is one of the 1st stats coaches look at...the fact he was on the ice for +35 is outstanding...its a very valuable stat...in my eyes its under rated...you are saying that just b/c that person on the ice doesnt mean he contributed to the goal is also a point of contention considering he leads defense in scoring(70+ pts and counting)...so obviously he does have a direct impact on the goals...you ask Gretzky/Lemieux what it meant having a guy like coffee who could skate and pass...


    And I guess Keith plays with Eager every game...come on man...He has Toews and Hossa and Kane....and so on and so on...


    Doughty and Keith are studs...but based on one year and in a stats world I would give it to Green in a landslide...Green is on the best team, he has the best +/- and he has the most pts...and if Keith was -30 would he still be in contention if it is a meaningless stat????  for a DMan its a vital stat...it means he takes care of business...the fact you made mention of Ovie and Backstrom is also something that should be mentioned...those 2 arent exactly noted for their own end...


    We can agree to disagree...the fact he was left off the original list is laughable...the fact you don't think +/- is important shows a lact of knowledge of the sport...


    Trust me when I say that video of the goals against are shown to teams...more so than the goals for...


    Myers in my eyes along with Doughty are going to get theirs...they are unbelievable talents and play a well rounded game...but on stats alone Green has it hands down

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    Plus minus is the most misleading stat in sports??  Wake up.. there is a reason bobby orr's single season +124 is considered to be the safest record in the sport...

    Plus minus is an indication indeed of the team, and the success of the team, and your contributions to the team.. Chara /beregeron/ krejci are all plus's on a mediocre to bad bruins team, wideman is a -18, you don't think you can look at that stat and generalize what kind of seasons the players are having?

    W-L may be one of the most misleading stats in the sport (for goalies and pitchers) since this relies more on the players in front of them, then their actual play.  Case in point, Thomas numbers are hands down better then Fleury's and Fans are calling for thomas to ride the pine here, and talking about how good fleury is over in pitt...
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_5_on_5.php?sort=27&section=goals&mingp=60&mintoi=&team=&pos=D
    Goals against per 60 minutes of ice time, 5-on-5 only:
    Mike Green:        2.42
    Duncan Keith:     2.84
    Drew Doughty:    1.97
    Zdeno Chara:      1.99
    Dennis Wideman: 2.47
    Like +/-, it's not perfect either, but it shows how Green's offensive production has to overcome being nearly the defensive liability Wideman is. 
    Keith's number surprised me.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    Defensive liabilty how though??? Sure he isn't scott stevens with bone crushing hits and may not be the best in a one on one battle...but the guy can skate...which makes up for a lot when one has some liabilties...he moves the puck with ease out of his end...I think people believe that be a defenseman in the legaue you need to punish people...Lidstrom(viewed as one of the all time greats) rarely uses the physical aspect to his game...he reads plays and uses his body to angle them off...his hockey knowledge is incredible back there...makes it look easy...
    I do agree Green's d-zone coverage can be bad at times...but a +/- is calculated obviosuly during even ice time...he is +35...better than anyone mentioned on the OP...he also has the best offensive numbers...

    I agree with Grapes that there should be a defensive defenseman award...

    Anyway, I wsih the Bruins had them all...
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    The point is that a high +/- can be arrived at in three ways:
    High offense, bad (but not horrible) defense;
    Okay offense, good defense;
    Little offense, great defense.

    Green's numbers suggest that he has a high +/- due to great offense and so-so defense.  I'm not convinced his offensive ability is overwhelming enough to win the Norris on it's own, and I'm not sure that his defensive ability is good enough that it won't loose him some votes.  I would not be shocked if he won, but I think the voters tend to look for at least good defensive ability before considering someone a top candidate for the Norris.

    That said, all of this is hopefully moot:  the voters will look at actual play and ability rather than just the numbers.  At least that's how it should be.
    Edit: oh and yes, it would be great if the Bruins had all of them.  Of course this year, one would have mono, another have a puck shatter his cup and miss time due to a ruptured testicle, and the third get stuck covering for Wideman.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Norris Trophy 2010

    Dr.,
    I would agree with most of your posts...and am not arguing this point...but Paul Coffee and Brian Leetch have norris trophys for that same reason...bot so so defensive if not questionable...but Green is a game changer...he has the ability to do things most dman can't...his ability to move the puck, skate and basically be a 4th fwd in most rushes enables his high +/-. 

    In my eyes only Green should win hands down...
     

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