Northeast Division and relocation

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Northeast Division and relocation

    So this is speculative, but following the rally in Quebec City this weekend that saw 75,000 people show up in support of a new arena in an attempt to bring the NHL back to Quebec City, I began wondering about how such a move would impact the Bruins.

    For the longest time it has seemed that if a team moves (likely Phoenix) they'd stay west, likely Winnipeg, but there are other candidates. (Seattle, KC, Vegas) So their relocation would not impact the Bruins' division.

    But if they were to go to Quebec (or less likely, Southern Ontario) who moves, and to where? Obviously, QC ends up in the Northeast. Putting them in the Atlantic wouldn't make sense for travelling, and I would think you'd want the divisional rivalry with Montreal. I can't see Ottawa moving, as they'd be in the geographical centre of the division. Toronto has a great deal of power in the league, and they raised such a stink the last time they were moved to the Western Conference, I can't see it happening. That leaves Boston and Buffalo. Buffalo is one of the Western-most teams in the division, so they could be moved to the Central, moving one of those teams into the Northwest, and Vancouver moving to the Pacific to fill Phoenix's spot. But Boston is the southern most team, so you could move them to the Atlantic, shift one team there to theSoutheast, and move the Thrashers west?

    I'd hate the Bruins to be moved out the Habs division.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    Your arguments do make sense but I don't see the Bruins being shifted and/or like the idea. 
    Your right on Toronto having power and will not want to move but I would put them back with Chicago and Detroit.
    Buffalo don't think they want to move either as their costs for travel would increase and this is a team that is considered a small market, not a good financial move.
    Let's get back that ol' Adams Division !!!

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    BsLegion, the Leafs moving would be my preference as well. However, if you look at TV Ratings in Canada the top rated regular season games are Toronto vs. Montreal and number two is Ottawa vs. Toronto. (Third is Flames vs. Oilers, fourth is Boston vs. Habs) Those matchups currently makeup 16 games a year. Moving them west would cut those games down to 4. That's a lot of revenue to give up. I really hope I'm wrong, and I do think the Coyotes should stay west, but I also think Quebec will get a team again eventually, so this will possibly be an issue down the line.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from shaunk. Show shaunk's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    This is not an easy alignment to figure on, but I will try it anyways. Assuming that Phoenix becomes Quebec City, the logical city to be moved would be Buffalo.  But, the tough part is assorting the ripple effect in a logical manner, so here is my attempt:

    Northeast: Quebec City, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Boston
    Atlantic: New Jersey, Washington, Philadelphia, New York, New York
    Southeast: Nashville, Atlanta, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Florida

    Central: Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Columbus
    Northwest: Vancouver, Colorado, Calgary, Minnesota, Edmonton
    Pacific: San Jose, St. Louis, Los Angeles, Anaheim, Dallas

    Toughest Move: Pittsburgh into the Central away from the Philly rivalry.  The move is in my mind sustainable, however, because Pittsburgh and Detroit will be able to revisit their rivalry more often, and with Chicago and Buffalo there, it is a very competitive division (sorry Columbus!)

    Easiest Move: Washington to the Atlantic, Nashville to the Southeast.  Both make the most geographical sense and also in terms of competitiveness.  Washington won't get the chance to stomp the other southeast competition, and the lesser market southeast teams along with Nashville will be able to succeed more and actually have a chance.

    Most illogical move:  Unfortunately, there has to be one, and sorry St. Louis, you get to be put into the Pacific.  Makes absolutely no geographical sense.  But the travel stays the same as they don't move into the other conference.

    Some here have pointed out that teams switching from the Eastern to Western conferences (Pittsburgh, Buffalo) will not go for it because of travel.  I don't think that the NHL would accept that as a legitimate argument.  IMO, they would just have to deal with it like the other teams (Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis) that have a ton of traveling and have had, even though they are closer to the eastern half of the country.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    Well, I'd put Vancouver into the Pacific instead of St Louis, considering they're actually on the Pacific... wow, the ripple effect, not that I agree completely with your setup (can't see Pittsburgh being moved to the West) is enough to give someone a headache. This will be much easier if they move to Winnipeg instead. Just Put the Peg in the Northwest and move either the Canucks or the Avs to the Pacific. (though that wouldn't be perfect for either team considering that since the Jets left the Canucks' biggest rivalry has been with the Avs)
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    Not going to breakup that Pittsburgh-Washington rivalry Gary's bread n butter. The subject really is a tricky one. Washington really is closest to Tampa, Florida, Carolina and Atlanta but again breaks up that great Pens-Cap rivalry.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from shaunk. Show shaunk's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    Agreed red75, but my set up is based on Quebec City.  If it were Winnipeg, you'd be right.  Winnipeg to the Northwest, Vancouver to the Pacific, and the other divisions remain the same. That actually would make the most sense, huh?  I wonder if the NHL would pick Winnipeg over Quebec City just because of the easier alignment.  And SanDog, I agree Bettman wouldn't WANT to break up Washington and Pittsburgh (I do, though, I am sick of that donnybrook), but it is a give and take.  Ratings wise, what he loses in the Washington/Pitt matchup I think he would  gain in more Pitt/Detroit exposure, and to a lesser extent Pitt/Chicago.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    In Response to Re: Northeast Division and relocation:
    BsLegion, the Leafs moving would be my preference as well. However, if you look at TV Ratings in Canada the top rated regular season games are Toronto vs. Montreal and number two is Ottawa vs. Toronto. (Third is Flames vs. Oilers, fourth is Boston vs. Habs) Those matchups currently makeup 16 games a year. Moving them west would cut those games down to 4. That's a lot of revenue to give up. I really hope I'm wrong, and I do think the Coyotes should stay west, but I also think Quebec will get a team again eventually, so this will possibly be an issue down the line.
    Posted by red75


    Good point. I believe all of Canada here chooses to either take Montreal or Toronto.
    Uhmm tough one !
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    In Response to Re: Northeast Division and relocation:
    This is not an easy alignment to figure on, but I will try it anyways. Assuming that Phoenix becomes Quebec City, the logical city to be moved would be Buffalo.  But, the tough part is assorting the ripple effect in a logical manner, so here is my attempt: Northeast: Quebec City, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Boston Atlantic: New Jersey, Washington, Philadelphia, New York, New York Southeast: Nashville, Atlanta, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Florida Central: Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Columbus Northwest: Vancouver, Colorado, Calgary, Minnesota, Edmonton Pacific: San Jose, St. Louis, Los Angeles, Anaheim, Dallas Toughest Move: Pittsburgh into the Central away from the Philly rivalry.  The move is in my mind sustainable, however, because Pittsburgh and Detroit will be able to revisit their rivalry more often, and with Chicago and Buffalo there, it is a very competitive division (sorry Columbus!) Easiest Move: Washington to the Atlantic, Nashville to the Southeast.  Both make the most geographical sense and also in terms of competitiveness.  Washington won't get the chance to stomp the other southeast competition, and the lesser market southeast teams along with Nashville will be able to succeed more and actually have a chance. Most illogical move:  Unfortunately, there has to be one, and sorry St. Louis, you get to be put into the Pacific.  Makes absolutely no geographical sense.  But the travel stays the same as they don't move into the other conference. Some here have pointed out that teams switching from the Eastern to Western conferences (Pittsburgh, Buffalo) will not go for it because of travel.  I don't think that the NHL would accept that as a legitimate argument.  IMO, they would just have to deal with it like the other teams (Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis) that have a ton of traveling and have had, even though they are closer to the eastern half of the country.
    Posted by shaunk

    Nice thinking...St. Louis would have to be given some type of stipend for travel in order to be in the Pacific Division.  It would not be acceptable for Buffalo either as many fans are associated with Toronto and Boston (long story).  

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dc-bruins-fan. Show dc-bruins-fan's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    - Expect the league to have 32 teams, with each conference being comprised of two, eight team divisions

    - Buffalo will relocate to Rochester; Hamilton will get a team; Quebec City will get a team; Florida will move to a Western city (Kansas City, Seattle, Portland)

    - East 1: Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Rochester, Quebec City, Boston, Pittsburgh

    - East 2: Washington, Tampa, Atlanta, Carolina, Philly, NYR, NYI, NJ
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    In Response to Re: Northeast Division and relocation:
    - Expect the league to have 32 teams, with each conference being comprised of two, eight team divisions - Buffalo will relocate to Rochester; Hamilton will get a team; Quebec City will get a team; Florida will move to a Western city (Kansas City, Seattle, Portland) - East 1: Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Rochester, Quebec City, Boston, Pittsburgh - East 2: Washington, Tampa, Atlanta, Carolina, Philly, NYR, NYI, NJ
    Posted by dc-bruins-fan

    I don't get Rochester?  Why do you think so?  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    Hamilton before Winnipeg? Even Bettman has made it clear that won't happen. I'm also not sure why Rochester before KC, Seattle or Milwaukee. Care to share your reasoning?
    Also, you don't think Phoenix will move?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dc-bruins-fan. Show dc-bruins-fan's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    Rochester because Hamilton/Southern Ontario will get another team, thereby killing Buffalo. Rochester has 2 million + people in the area and was, until last year, home of the Sabres' farm team. Still close enough to the border to get enough Canadians to come down. It's an easy solution, and the NHL could probably sell it to the Sabres current owner (from upstate New York).

    Southern Ontario will definitely get another team. There is way too much pent up demand in that market for the NHL to ignore. If the NHL insists on projects like Phoenix and Atlanta, the NHLPA will insist on southern Ontario.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dc-bruins-fan. Show dc-bruins-fan's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    The NHL/Bettman have invested so much political capital into Phoenix that I cannot imagine the team leaving in the next 5 years.  The NHLPA will want a team in Southern Ontario to increase league revenues and the amount of money that is alotted to players. An easy solution would be to move Phoenix to Canada, but I think Bettman and the owners would rather sell the rights to a team in Southern Ontario to cover any losses from the Phoenix experiment, and use the southern Ontario franchise as leverage in negotiations with the NHLPA.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    In Response to Re: Northeast Division and relocation:
    Rochester because Hamilton/Southern Ontario will get another team, thereby killing Buffalo. Rochester has 2 million + people in the area and was, until last year, home of the Sabres' farm team. Still close enough to the border to get enough Canadians to come down. It's an easy solution, and the NHL could probably sell it to the Sabres current owner (from upstate New York). Southern Ontario will definitely get another team. There is way too much pent up demand in that market for the NHL to ignore. If the NHL insists on projects like Phoenix and Atlanta, the NHLPA will insist on southern Ontario.
    Posted by dc-bruins-fan

    Rochester is not a hockey hot bed by any means.  Buffalo is the southern Ontario team, though I still say you are correct on Hamilton.  New York has three hockey teams for all intents and purposes.  Southern Ontario does not need Buffalo to move.  Toronto has fought off expansion in Ontario too long. Another team in Illinois would be a better expansion area, economically expanding area near Chicago, solid youth hockey program as well.  

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    dc-bruins-fan
    This is where we differ - I think on January 1st, during the Winter Classic, and one day after the NHL's deadline, Bettman announces the Coyotes are moving, most likely to the Peg, or possibly, and the reason I started this thread, to QC.
     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    Yeah, but the NHL ( not Bettman per se ) has gone back to failed cities a number of times, (Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Denver, Ottawa, Atlanta) so I think it's a matter of spin. If he sells it correctly ( he has already said that going back to Winnipeg would be "righting a wrong" ) he can make himself look like he never screwed up.

    It would come down to PR.

    And the six teams north of the 49th account for one third of league revenues.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dc-bruins-fan. Show dc-bruins-fan's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    I'm not saying Southern Ontario needs Buffalo to leave, I'm saying Buffalo needs Southern Ontario to not get another hockey team. If Ontario gets one, Buffalo is dead. The Sabres weren't able to sell-out the last couple of years, which is a notable change from the immediate post lockout years. The team had significant cash problems before the current owner arrived. Rochester isn't a huge hockey hotbed, but it has more than two million people (compared to 500k in Buffalo), including a lot of Sabres fans already there, the Sabres have marketing campaigns semi-established, it's still only 2 hours from the Canadian border, and it would be an easy sell to the current Sabres owner. The other alternative is Hartford again, but Rochester makes too much sense for the current ownership group.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dc-bruins-fan. Show dc-bruins-fan's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    The problem with Winnipeg is that it is such an unattractive market economically. It's worse than Edmonton in terms of quality of living (sorry to anyone from Winnipeg or Manitoba) and has way fewer corporate sponsors. No million dollar athlete is going to want to go play there (kind of like Edmonton).

    TSN and the Globe and Mail did an excellent evaluation recently of all the potential Canadian markets an NHL team could enter and Hamilton, Toronto, and Quebec City were the most attractive (Toronto got pretty much a perfect score). They all need new arenas but Ham and Tor are no-brainers and basically done deals if the NHL comes whereas QC has some politicking going on to get a new arena built (possibly also for an Olympic bid). In the case of QC, Bettman has said that the promise of a new rink is a precondition for negotiations even beginning.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kennedy97. Show Kennedy97's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    In Response to Re: Northeast Division and relocation:
    Build a winner and they will come.  Applies to any city.  Coyotes need to go deep in the playoffs and find a face of their franchise to sustain a team there.  This cuts across all major sports.  
    Posted by ipot


    Agreed. But will they stay? That's the question, as teams can't expect to be winners every year (and may have long periods of mediocrity--look at my Habs and for the most part the Bruins over the last 15 years.) If not, and fans don't still support the team relatively well in those down-to-middlin' years, it's hard to sustain a franchise.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mamico3308. Show mamico3308's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    In Response to Re: Northeast Division and relocation:
    -  Buffalo will relocate to Rochester
    Posted by dc-bruins-fan


    Most definitely won't happen.  I live in Roch, and was at the B's - Panthers game, we couldn't even sell out an AHL arena for that game.  This is a minor league city at BEST.  The city & county do not have the money to sink into building a new arena.  Even Golisano, the Sabres Owner, no longer lives in the state. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: Northeast Division and relocation

    My alignment is based on the Winnipeg Coyotes coming into existence.

    EASTERN CONFERENCE
    Northeast: Boston, Buffalo, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
    Atlantic: New Jersey, NYI, NYR, Philadelphia, Washington
    Southeast: Atlanta, Carolina, Florida, Nashville, Tampa
    WESTERN CONFERENCE
    Central: Detroit, Chicago, Columbus, Pittsburgh, St. Louis
    Northwest: Calgary, Edmonton, Minnesota, Vancouver, Winnipeg
    Pacific: Anaheim, Colorado, Dallas, Los Angeles, San Jose 
     
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