Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from bhsreddevil12. Show bhsreddevil12's posts

    Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    Before I got beaten up here, at least see the reason (although pieces included may differ why the NYR might be a good team to trade with).

    To NYR:
    Andrew Ferrence 2.25M
    Marc Savard 4.007M
    Total Cap: 6.25M

    To Bos:
    Wade Redden 6.5M
    Marc Stall (RFA- ? I'll guess and use 2.5M here)
    Brandon Dubinsky 1.85M
    Total Cap 10.8M

    Boston immediately buries Redden (gives JJ another way to show he doesn't care about spending the money to win) so the actual cap savings based on Staal @ 2.5M is about 2M. Hopefully enough to sign Wheeler although I don't have an answer on Seguin, unless Staal signs for less which would help us out with the cap issue.

    Why it makes sense for NYR: Savard stays close to home as flights to ONT are very similar time wise, it gives gaborik an elite centerman the Rangers some cap relief and room to sign frolov among others and they get a solid D in Ferrence.

    Bos: Also provides 2m of cap relief, although the con is they are burying redden and paying 6.5M (major drawback), solid young D which takes pressure of the few D prospects we do have and allows them to develop at their pace and personally I'd move Dubinsky to LW.

    Lineup:
    Lucic- Bergeron- Horton
    Wheeler- Krecji- Ryder
    Dubinsky-Seguin- Recchi
    Paille- Campbell- Horton

    Chara - Seidenberg
    Boychuk- Stall
    Stuart- Hunwick
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    Wow.  If they are willing to bury contracts, then why do they need to trade savard? 

    This is awful.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    In Response to Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR:
    Drew- Point taken, but I'd argue that Ryder still has value (20-25G) Who else would you bury?
    Posted by bhsreddevil12


    I let Wheeler walk, replace him with a call up.

    This means that we now need to shave 1.3 (900K for call up x, 900k for seguin - 500k in space that we have).

    you can shave 1.3 by trading hunwick and replacing him with mcquaid. 

    But i dont do anything until it comes time to activate sturm.  Its extremely likely that this problem will have sorted itself out by then (someone else got hurt).  ITs also possible that a market has opened up for Thomas (assuming Rask is playing well in Nov/Dec).
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    In Response to Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR:
    Fair enough counter points, I'd argue that trading Hunwick opens us up to the very real possiblity that we're screwed if Ferrence goes down with an injury this year but something that can be fixed in the season.
    Posted by bhsreddevil12


    I agree.  But if you ask me, this is a much less evil than trading Savard.

    Without Savard, our powerplay is anemic.  I understand the team got hot in the buffalo series without him, but that is an extremely small sample size.  For the most part, the team proved that they are not capable of scoring goals without him.

    Savy is worth every penny of a 4M cap hit.  Also, because we are being forced to take 6.5M back in the trade, and we are swapping a solid D man (Ference) for a solid D man (stall) , on top of giving up savard, we are trading Savy very low in this deal.  And you'd have to, considering his age and health issues.

    Regarding trading savard, the cost (forfeiture of the 2010 season, pretty much) isnt worth the benefit (save 4 M in cap space).  Usually when you try to sell low, the return just isnt worth it.  Savard doesnt appear to be an exception to that rule.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    Any trade that implies:

    "we should trade savard to create the cap space necessary for keeping blake wheeler" makes me roll my eyes.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Devanjan. Show Devanjan's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    In Response to Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR:
    Wow.  If they are willing to bury contracts, then why do they need to trade savard?  This is awful.
    Posted by Drewski5


    Agreed.

    Burying a guy and his contract in the minors is a drastic step most GM's are loathe to do.  However there are only so many roster spots available and if the GM is able to find a cheaper talent that will produce at, or nearly the same as an expensive, cap eating non-motivated player on your roster, it is a logical business decision to do so.  The major decision for the GM here is "How big are his cajones?"  The owner then has to decide on the  effectiveness of his GM as the GM is admitting that he screwed up  yesterday but that todays decision is correct and is based on his learning curve.  
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    If you're the NYR do you trade two salary cap friendly players, a 24 year old ( Dubinsky ) one of your best forwards and a 23 year old  ( Staal ) your best defenseman for two players in their 30's coming off injury plagued seasons who are more expensive just to get rid of Redden ? Glen Sather makes a lot of bone headed moves but I think he'd pass on this one. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    2 bandaids (savard and ference)
    for 2 players with bright futures(Dub/Staal).

    Sign me up...Sather is bad...but not this bad...
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from OlsonicCreations. Show OlsonicCreations's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    Drewski, I'm just shocked at what you're saying about Blake Wheeler. You don't let a guy like that walk, he has plenty of upside, just needs to get his head right.

    He has plenty of time to improve his game and hasn't been nearly as shabby as you are suggesting.

    This is a classic case of scapegoating by the Boston fans. They are gonna boo a guy who really doesn't deserve it. It almost seems like a caricature of Blake wheeler is standing in for the actual player; yes he has his flaws, but they aren't nearly as pronounced as people are making them out to be.

    I think a lot of people would look stupid and trigger happy if they let Wheeler walk. He's an RFA, and despite the cries that he's overpaid, we're talking about 2.5 Million here, it's a bargain price for a guy with that much talent at that age.

    Will it doom the Bruins if Wheeler doesn't pan out? No. Would it really hurt the franchise's chance at a Stanley Cup if we give up on a player with such a high ceiling for nothing at a time when we need help on the wing like The President does in the polls? What if Wheeler pans out?

    He's worth another shot in my book, you need to have a short memory sometimes because like his agent said, 6'5 guys with that kind of point production in hist first two seasons don't grow on trees.




     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    In Response to Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR:
    Drewski, I'm just shocked at what you're saying about Blake Wheeler. You don't let a guy like that walk, he has plenty of upside, just needs to get his head right. He has plenty of time to improve his game and hasn't been nearly as shabby as you are suggesting. This is a classic case of scapegoating by the Boston fans. They are gonna boo a guy who really doesn't deserve it. It almost seems like a caricature of Blake wheeler is standing in for the actual player; yes he has his flaws, but they aren't nearly as pronounced as people are making them out to be. I think a lot of people would look stupid and trigger happy if they let Wheeler walk. He's an RFA, and despite the cries that he's overpaid, we're talking about 2.5 Million here, it's a bargain price for a guy with that much talent at that age.
    Posted by OlsonicCreations


    When you're team is as good as teh Bruins are, you cant be worried about "upside."  I view the Bruins as cup contenders, and Blake Wheeler seems to be an easy way to get under the cap without killing the 2010 season.

    Trading Savard ruins the 2010 season.

    I dont care what Wheeler will do in his career.  Im not willing to pay for potential when the team is this good.  Now if we were in a rebuilding phase, id have a different attitude entirely
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from OlsonicCreations. Show OlsonicCreations's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    Exactly how much better do you think Michael Ryder is than Blake Wheeler?

    And another thing,to be obvious, we just drafted a franchise center, he's 18.... We need a core of players around him that wont be dinosaurs when he hits his prime. 

    send ryder to the minors.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    Ols, if the cap situation works itself out (read: someone else gets placed on LTIR prior to sturm's activation), and Wheeler is on the team, I'm okay with that. 

    He's a decent 20 goal scorer.

    BUT, I dont view him as a "we need to keep this kid no matter what it costs and no matter who we have to give up to make it work."

    I would let wheeler walk before i would: bury ryder in the minors, salary dump savard, salary dump thomas, bury ference in the minors.....

    if im the gm, wheeler is a cap casualty.  Not because he's bad, but because i just dont have the room for him.  He's not worth dismantling a cup contending team (read: it's not worth it to trade savy to make room).
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    In Response to Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR:
    Exactly how much better do you think Michael Ryder is than Blake Wheeler? And another thing,to be obvious, we just drafted a franchise center, he's 18.... We need a core of players around him that wont be dinosaurs when he hits his prime.  send ryder to the minors.
    Posted by OlsonicCreations


    We got pretty deep last year and have added:
    a PP QB (Seidenberg was hurt for the run last year)
    a #1 center (savard wasnt himself upon returning)
    Krejci (we make it to the finals if he doesnt get hurt)
    a true line 1 winger (horton)
    Lucic will be better (never able to hit a groove last year)
    Seguin

    You take an already contending team and make those acquistions, you have a contender.  Contenders should not be worried about 7 years into the future.

    Let's worry about Seguin's prime when it comes.  Teams have missed out on championships because they were too focused on building for the future, when they should have been focusing on the present.

    in 2010, i think ryder has 25 goals in him.  Thats the player he has consistently been throughout his career.  I think Wheeler is the player we saw last year.

    Ryder vs Wheeler, I consider the present only, and go with Ryder.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from OlsonicCreations. Show OlsonicCreations's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    I'm curious, what do you think the strengths and weaknesses are of both Wheeler and Ryder?

    Now that I look at it, 

    Ryder 2010: 18 goals 15 assists  33points
    Wheeler 2010: outscored 18 goals 20 assists 38 points


    So Wheeler scores more, is younger, less expensive, and currently sits in a 6'5 frame that almost never comes along with that kind of stick skills

    And him and Ryder are both equally  lazy... 


    I don't get what the argument is here for why you wouldn't send Ryder to the minors...They have the exact same weaknesses, but Wheeler has more strengths and a hell of a lot more upside. Ryder's eulogy could already be written, he had a lot of talent but never seemed to give a crap, he was drafted 216 overall in 1998 and spent a whopping 5 years in the minors (real work ethic huh). 

    Wheelers Eulogy could hardly be written at age 23. You forget that he made the team outright in training camp. There was a hell of a lot of on-the-job training, and the Bruins could easily be accused of rushing him. yet he scored 21 goals and then apparently "regresses" by scoring three less. Give the kid a break. He is still VERY young.

    Even your "current" argument is dashed by last-years stats.I really think you should justify why you think keeping Ryder is a better option than keeping Wheeler. Saying "I have a feeling" isn't really cutting it.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    I think Ryder's stats from last year are of poor indication.  I think he hit about 12 posts.  Also, he had family issues.  I think his stats from the year before are more accurate (27 G).

    Re: Wheeler, I think that he probably has a slightly better all around game, but is a much worse scorer.  Because we lacked players who can hit the twine, I think Ryder's skill set (sniper) fits our team needs more so than Wheeler's (well rounded).

    I'd be especially excited to see him on the off-wing.  I think he's a pure goal scorer, and we need goals.

    I also put some stock into the fact that he's an upcoming UFA. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    Because Ryder is good in the playoffs, I think its a motivation issue w him.  Motivation self-corrects when there is money to be made (and he is an upcoming UFA).

    I havent seen anythign from wheeler that suggests he is better than last year's numbers.  But w Ryder:

    A) he's an upcoming UFA and performs when he wants to (illustrated by post-season sucesss)
    B) he had family issues last year, which may have weighed on him
    C) he scored 27 two years ago
    D) he had a lot of bad luck last year (im sure he hears DINNNGGGGG in his sleep)
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    Wheeler had a disappointing season last year but to suggest to let him walk for nothing at his age sounds like one of those viruses NAS was talking about. To give up young talent for nothing to fit under the cap when there are other ways( Ryder and other trade options ) would be just bad management of a team. If a person feels that the Bruins are a cup team and the only way to fit the team under the salary cap is to let Wheeler go for nothing well then that's their opinion. I don't agree with it and actually think it would hurt the team. A lot of GM's would be waiting to pounce on a bad decision like that to sign a 23 year old Wheeler.

    P.S. I picked Wheeler as my least favorite Bruin because of last years performance but I still think it would be really dumb just to give him away.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from OlsonicCreations. Show OlsonicCreations's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    In Response to Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR:
    P.S. I picked Wheeler as my least favorite Bruin because of last years performance but I still think it would be really dumb just to give him away.
    Posted by Chowdahkid-



    yeah, I mean, I think we can all agree he's been a disappointment thus far and we expected him to be better. (At least more of a presence in the playoffs).

    I'm just saying, we haven't reached that critical mass where its legit time to bail.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    Chowdah,were at the point were we may have to let wheeler walk for nothing, any time to trade him/his rights was before today, I would argue, the molson signing should help this is a guy who was far more valuable to his team getting a 2.45m deal.

    Olsonic, I would argue you have a better idea of what to expect from ryder this season then we do wheeler, and at the end of this deal I

    The orginal post though, awful trade, redden has one of the worst deals in the NHL and 3 years left on it.. The idea of burying him for 3 years makes much less sense thnce just putting ryder and hunwick in the AHL for one season, and walking away from both or resigning them to friendlier contracts at the end of the season.  I would also argue any attempt to bury  redden in the minors that long will generate a greivence from the NHLPA and will be "exhibit A" at the next CBA negotiation from the NHLPA's standpoint.

    I also don't think gaborik is a player who needs an elite centermen, (which I would not apply to savard by the way), much like ovechkin he (when healthy) is a dominate world class scorer who can generate his own opportunities.  
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    In Response to Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR:
    In Response to Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR : yeah, I mean, I think we can all agree he's been a disappointment thus far and we expected him to be better. (At least more of a presence in the playoffs). I'm just saying, we haven't reached that critical mass where its legit time to bail.
    Posted by OlsonicCreations


    Agree OC . People use the scenario that the B's are a cup team and they shoudn't overpay for future returns .There are other Bruins that fall into that category and if you have that type of belief then you lose players for future success . Letting Wheeler walk for nothing because you don't want to pay does not guarantee a Stanley Cup because somebody says so. Hypothetical !
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    In Response to Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR:
    In Response to Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR : Agree OC . People use the scenario that the B's are a cup team and they shoudn't overpay for future returns .There are other Bruins that fall into that category and if you have that type of belief then you lose players for future success . Letting Wheeler walk for nothing because you don't want to pay does not guarantee a Stanley Cup because somebody says so. Hypothetical !
    Posted by Chowdahkid-


    Chowdah, keep in mind this is a 1 year deal with no CBA in place past the 2011 season.  Overpaying wheeler on a one year deal makes not gaurantees on our part to his rights past next season..
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from beantowngm15. Show beantowngm15's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    Ok, in the spirit of things:

    1) With Wheeler's arbitration, we have a second buyout window (used by PC many times i.e. Glen Murray) that may be used to buyout Ryder.  if he isn't bough out, he will probably get buried in providence.  Drew, your point of "you can't pay based on potential when you're in win now mode" can be used for Ryder as well.  We can't pay him $4M based on his potential to bounceback and score 25-30 goals.  Bury Ryder in the minors.  Savings = $4M

    2) Again, I refer to Drew's point of paying for potential.  In 5 years, maybe Wheeler will be worth $3M or whatever nutty numbers people want to give him.  Right now, i say let him walk.  He's not that good right now.  We need guys who are willing to go into the corners and fight for the puck and guys who are wiling to take a big hit to move the puck up ice (see: David Krejci's broken wrist).  Wheeler hasn't been willing to do that since mid-December of 2008.  Let Wheeler walk.  Total savings = Assuming Wheeler's arbitration number in 2.5 you have $6.5M

    3) Ok, now that you have 6.5 to spare, I would place an offer sheet on RFA Devin Setoguchi from San Jose for about $3.5M or try to swing a deal with the Sharks that include a prospect of some sort (Marchand?) and a few picks to land him.  he could occupy second line left wing instead of Ryder or Wheeler.  Then, I suggest giving Caron a shot to make an impact and place him at tird line right wing with Bergeron and Recchi.  Now, you have 4.36 tied up in two players.  Plenty of space to sign Seguin to Hall's deal and that adds $900K to that.  Plenty of space remains to carry a spare forward and defenseman.

    Lucic - Savard - Horton
    Setoguchi - Krejci - Seguin
    Recchi - Bergeron - Caron
    Paille - Campbell - Thornton

    Chara - Seidenberg
    Stuart - Boychuk
    Hunwick - Ference

    Rask
    Thomas
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from bogie6. Show bogie6's posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    How did a deal with NYR turn into a debate on Wheeler vs. Ryder?? Let's go back to the original post. Redden has ben a bust, and neither JJ or PC are going to "eat money". Stall is the only value, but, why would the Rangers trade him?? The B's are not going to trade Savvy until they see how well he can recover. The playoffs raised some concerns, but his skill set is hard to come by. I'd go Ference for Stall, but, I'd be hoodwinking the Rangers. The further commentaries on Wheeler Vs. Ryder are bogus. Ryder will be on Bergie's left wing to see if he can cut it, at least until Sturm is ready[ mid-Dec]. Wheeler, if award is accepted will be playing to prove he can overcome his "known" weaknesses that his agent says he is aware of????
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    In Response to Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR:
    Chowdah,were at the point were we may have to let wheeler walk for nothing, any time to trade him/his rights was before today, I would argue, the molson signing should help this is a guy who was far more valuable to his team getting a 2.45m deal. Olsonic, I would argue you have a better idea of what to expect from ryder this season then we do wheeler, and at the end of this deal I The orginal post though, awful trade, redden has one of the worst deals in the NHL and 3 years left on it.. The idea of burying him for 3 years makes much less sense thnce just putting ryder and hunwick in the AHL for one season, and walking away from both or resigning them to friendlier contracts at the end of the season.  I would also argue any attempt to bury  redden in the minors that long will generate a greivence from the NHLPA and will be "exhibit A" at the next CBA negotiation from the NHLPA's standpoint. I also don't think gaborik is a player who needs an elite centermen, (which I would not apply to savard by the way), much like ovechkin he (when healthy) is a dominate world class scorer who can generate his own opportunities.  
    Posted by rolerhoky19


    Roler , if the B's are at the point of losing Wheeler for nothing then it would be bad management . If they are relying on winning the arbitration case just to keep Wheeler because he'll make a few hundred thousand more then they want to pay him , then they should have traded his rights a long time ago for anything rather then have him walk for nothing . I'd have a hard time believing that their plan is to let Wheeler walk when they could have traded him for whatever before all this unfolded. I think something else is in place ( trade somebody else) if Wheeler wins his case to get the B's under the cap. At least that's what I hope their plan is . If not then I might be jumping on the Wensink bandwagon. On second thought I'll just rant for one post not for the next two years.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR

    In Response to Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR:
    In Response to Re: Potential trade opportunity with the NYR : Chowdah, keep in mind this is a 1 year deal with no CBA in place past the 2011 season.  Overpaying wheeler on a one year deal makes not gaurantees on our part to his rights past next season..
    Posted by rolerhoky19


    Letting him walk for nothing also guarantees we gave up an asset for diddly squat.
     
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