question for hockey minds

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

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    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]the bruins are done training and developing kessel  thats what they do!  oh wait he's  a valuble player (yeah for another team) he wants money JJ " oh time to get rid of him"  BRUINS = THE NHLS TRAINING AND REHAB TEAM!!!!!
    Posted by TheRealHomer[/QUOTE]

    Fact: The NHL has a salary cap.

    Fact: Chiarelli has said, more than once, that he has approval from ownership to match any offer sheet for Kessel, and to move any players required to make room for Kessel.

    The NHL has changed. Do try to keep up.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: question for hockey minds : Idiot I was doing a mathematical progression, use an f'n brain and see if you can figure it out. The following year he'll score a 130. Phil isn't in the class of any of these guys? He may very well become that. You belong to the group that said our other Phil was a poor pickup from Chi in the 60's, he went from scoring in the 20's for them, scored 43 and then 76. These progressions are not unheard of.  Guy Lafleur went from scoring 21 to 53. Gretzky 55 to 92.  Bure 34 to 60. Now PK is not one of 'these' guys and I don't think he will become one of them, but he will become a 50 goal scorer. Cam was going to become the player he was no matter what, he picked up hockey at 13, was not picked for his team and worked harder every year, he would have exploded no matter where he was played. He went from 14 to 36 because he was going to score goals You can't keep a monster locked in the closet for ever.  Lucic is from this exact mold and I think he will score close to K's 36 this year as his improvement in scoring has been on the same progression as Phil's.
    Posted by No4BobbyOrr-GOAT[/QUOTE]


    You can't use mathematical progression.. there is a curve, incline high at the bottom, and tiers at the top.. I am not saying kessel can't be good but people are already talking about him being a 50 goal scorer, there was 1 50 goal scorer last year..and as a matter of fact there are only 11 50 goal seasons going back to 2005..

    As far as developing into that class, all of the guys on that list were immediate impacts the true elite players are..  He is going to develop into an Ovechkin?  he's got what 18 months to to develop into the perennial goal scoring leader? 

    And did you just mention Gretzky and Kessel in the same sentence?  By the end of gretky' third season he had scored an nhl record 212 points.. There are 2 players in history you can mention in a sentence with Gretz.. and Kessel isn't one of them.

    look over that list and let me know who "developed" into a 50 goal scorer, and like i said you really can't count Hedjuk and Cheechoo cause they havent done it since they had a single season that they over achieved in...
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    The Fact is if you watch Kessel's game he is not a Dominate player, he isn't beating guys one on one, or killing goalies with a rocket shot, he hits the line with speed either backing the D off creating some room, or he makes enough of a deke to buy some space and let a shot go.. He plays his best hockey by far on the side wall of the power play when if he has some room he will actually drive to the net..

    I like the kid, he is a good player, I am just saying hes not a 50 goal scorer and people are talking about him like he is.  There is no more proof that he is the next Heatley as people have been throwing around then he is the next Cheechoo.. Sturms return to the line up, along with the progression of a few other pleayers would indeed replace the 36 goals kessel scored and seeing how hes going to miss 2 months of the season getting to 36 would probably be a stretch.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BruinsUnite. Show BruinsUnite's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    We don't lose anything by trading him? lol

    • 36 goals last season, despite injuries. Obviously, he would be producing even more in the coming seasons.

    • Who will do replace that production? Since when is Sturm a sure thing, or a 40 goal scorer? I love the guy, but he is no replacement.

    • Look at the number of goals the Bs scored last season. Stop comparing us to other teams in terms of defense and regular season. Those other teams are going to be working hard on their defense. The level of competition will be higher in the coming season -- especially given the Bs' reputation now.

    • Bs cr@pped out in the 2nd round because they couldn't maximize on the many scoring chances they had. A healthy Kessel would have done it for the Bs. That's the reality of it.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

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    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: question for hockey minds : Fact: The NHL has a salary cap. The NHL has changed. Do try to keep up.
    Posted by duinne[/QUOTE]

    Hee Hee Duinne strikes again. Education for the masses...You should put "spell check that!" as your (spelled correctly) signature.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TimThomas-god. Show TimThomas-god's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    I think almost everyone here is missing the point- Phil Kessel is an extremely INCONSISTENT player who has potential, but is asking for way more money than he's worth.  He does not deserve the kind of contract Krejci got.  Krecji is an established young Center who has proven he can help this team win, even when he's not scoring any points. 

    The point is, Kessel is the epitomy of inconsistency.  Yes, he had 36 goals, but just look at when he scored them:

    1st Half of Year- 24 Goals
    2nd Half of Year- ONLY 12 Goals

    His goal total was split in half!  Obviously, defenders caught on to the fact that Kessel only has one move (the toe drag along the boards).  I say, it's time to trade this guy while we can still get some players of value.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pictureguy. Show Pictureguy's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    Fluto Shinzawa compiled a list earlier in the summer that pointed out that of all the players that scored as many goals as Kessel did last year...he had the highest percentage of his goals scored against the non-playoff teams (something like 70$ ???). 

    Could mean doesn't compete as hard against quality opposition.

    He has potential to score a lot of goals but if it is only against the lower seeded teams, that won't help us in the playoffs when those teams aren't playing any more.

    I say if he signs for money in the Krejci range (which he won't) he'd be worth keeping and see if he could develop into a player that is also "Hard to play against".  Otherwise the argument that Recchi for a full year, the return of Sturm (who I don't care for much either, but is good for 20+ goals a year), and the development of Lucic and Wheeler and the continued recovery of Bergeron will make up Kessel's goal difference.

    The assets in return for Kessel (even if they are only draft picks) will be utilized to replace other players that will be getting too expensive down the road.  In the current "salary capped" NHL you have to keep young talent coming through your system to continue to be competitive (Look at the Red Wings)
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from stingerjp. Show stingerjp's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    Picguy- i also believe the main point in that article was that all of the players who scored over 36 goals were making big $$.

    If you look up the top 20 goal scoring leaders from last year(Kessel was 13th), look at all the names on that list.  Just about ALL of them are making big bucks.  Also-Kessel scored 36g in less games than ANY top 20 player on that list.  Take into account he is only 21 years old and I say it would be a huge mistake to let him walk.  He is not the strongest 2 way player, but talent like this does not come along often and is not easily replaced.  Other guys on our roster could be replaced way easier(Koby, Ference, etc). 

    What is PK's worth is the big question, and his worth is not related to the B's cap situation.  Cammalleri scored about the same # of goals last year(39 in 81 games) and he signed for $6 mil a year.  Gionta signed for $5mil and scored less than 30.  Marleau makes 6.3mil and is 29yrs old.  The point is, most of the top 20 scorers are making big bucks.

    Kessel's value is high-he's productive and he will be around for a while.  The B's need to find a way to fit him in.  There will be some people squeezed out on the roster, but you need to keep your best players and Kessel is one of them.

    It is a mistake for people to try and belittle the worth of PK- you might not want to give him big $$, but he has produced for the B's and will produce for whomever he plays for next year.  I just hope he is on the squad when the B's are passing the Cup around this spring.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from GillesGilbert. Show GillesGilbert's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    I think you have to be careful when comparing Kessel's salary or salary expectations to other goal scorers who signed as free agents or just before they were free agents. For example, Gionta doesn't get $5M if he is a restricted free agent.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

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    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]I think almost everyone here is missing the point- Phil Kessel is an extremely INCONSISTENT player who has potential, but is asking for way more money than he's worth.  He does not deserve the kind of contract Krejci got.  Krecji is an established young Center who has proven he can help this team win, even when he's not scoring any points.  The point is, Kessel is the epitomy of inconsistency.  Yes, he had 36 goals, but just look at when he scored them: 1st Half of Year- 24 Goals 2nd Half of Year- ONLY 12 Goals His goal total was split in half!  Obviously, defenders caught on to the fact that Kessel only has one move (the toe drag along the boards).  I say, it's time to trade this guy while we can still get some players of value.
    Posted by TimThomas-god[/QUOTE]

    Certainly the fact that he played the last couple of months of the season with a ripped-up shoulder that required major surgery had nothing to do with it. Must have been the toe drag.



     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from stingerjp. Show stingerjp's posts

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    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]I think you have to be careful when comparing Kessel's salary or salary expectations to other goal scorers who signed as free agents or just before they were free agents. For example, Gionta doesn't get $5M if he is a restricted free agent.
    Posted by GillesGilbert[/QUOTE]


    Agreed Gilles.  There are a lot of variables when figuring out how much he is worth.  I just want to point out that 1-many people are underestimating his $$ value and value to the team, 2- his numbers put him alongside the elite of the NHL, even if he has only been there for a year.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from paulyboy. Show paulyboy's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    I will repeat what I said....

    Here is another way to look at this.. Bs finished 2nd in goals scored behind Detroit Wings. Are the 36 goals that Kessel scored really going to be missed? Particularly if you add in a very conservative 15 to 20 for Sturm. Not to mention a young lineup of younger players a year older and Recchi for the year. The Bs are looking to add grit. Sometimes this can be done by just taking away some of the soft players. I have never seen Kessel throw a hit since he has been here. Anyone that plays puck knows that its a game won in the trenches and always in tight games. I hate to say it but the loss of Kessel is addition by subtraction. The Bs will load up on a trade probably getting a very young highly skilled cheap player in the minors and some picks. All which can be used to attain the ultimate goal..Pittsburg wins the cup 6th in scoring and 17th in goals against.  Bs finished 2nd in goals for and 1st in goals against. Kessel is gone. 

    Total Goals scored for 2008/09 ( Pittsburg finished 6th)
    Detroit 289
    Bs 270
    Wash. 268
    Chicago 260
    Phily 260
    Pittsburg 258

    More  importantly goals against (Pittsburg finished  17th)
    Boston    190
    Minn   197
    San Jose   199
    Jersey   207
    Chichago  209
    Rangers  212

    Welcome to the West Coast Phil. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from stingerjp. Show stingerjp's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]I will repeat what I said.... Here is another way to look at this.. Bs finished 2nd in goals scored behind Detroit Wings. Are the 36 goals that Kessel scored really going to be missed? Particularly if you add in a very conservative 15 to 20 for Sturm. Not to mention a young lineup of younger players a year older and Recchi for the year. The Bs are looking to add grit. Sometimes this can be done by just taking away some of the soft players. I have never seen Kessel throw a hit since he has been here. Anyone that plays puck knows that its a game won in the trenches and always in tight games. I hate to say it but the loss of Kessel is addition by subtraction. The Bs will load up on a trade probably getting a very young highly skilled cheap player in the minors and some picks. All which can be used to attain the ultimate goal..Pittsburg wins the cup 6th in scoring and 17th in goals against.  Bs finished 2nd in goals for and 1st in goals against. Kessel is gone.  Total Goals scored for 2008/09 ( Pittsburg finished 6th) Detroit 289 Bs 270 Wash. 268 Chicago 260 Phily 260 Pittsburg 258 More  importantly goals against (Pittsburg finished  17th) Boston    190 Minn   197 San Jose   199 Jersey   207 Chichago  209 Rangers  212 Welcome to the West Coast Phil. 
    Posted by paulyboy[/QUOTE]

    Using your logic, Crosby must be terrible too because he does not hit... unless you take into account that wimpy attempt at a fight he got into last year.  Their job is to score, not to fight.  They make their teams better because of what they do.  You can look at Pitts TEAM #'s all you want-they have 2 of the top scorers/playmakers in the NHL on that team and they won the Cup.  PK is a big-time scoring talent and he makes the Bruins much better.  If you think they are better off without him, i seriously doubt your knowledge of the game.

    However you feel about the contract situation, you should at least give this kid props for what he CAN do and the importance of that...
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from paulyboy. Show paulyboy's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    stingerjp, love Kessel, but realize that sometimes it is addition by subtraction particulary in the new era. In a perfect world I would sign him, but the Bs have issues with $$$.  My point was not to be so hung up on goals as they sometimes fall into a void and mean nothing.  The key at the end of the year as I do play hockey is grit and heart.  I like Kessel, but take a look at another fly weight in Savard and you will see someone who has some sack when it comes to sticking up for teamates.  Kessel is on his on planet, but I would love to see how he does with Toronto or other teams.  Have we no learned from the Pats/Sox that no one player is bigger than than the team?  I would have argued this case if it was a few years ago when the Bs were down and out, but the Bs have the right formula and Kessel cannot break it. Let him go to some band of misfits and try to replicate what he has down here.  Nashville, who on there team team is going to come close to Savard. How about Toronto?  good luck...
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TimThomas-god. Show TimThomas-god's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: question for hockey minds : Certainly the fact that he played the last couple of months of the season with a ripped-up shoulder that required major surgery had nothing to do with it. Must have been the toe drag.  
    Posted by duinne[/QUOTE]

    That's not what I'm saying, "duinne".  Yeah, maybe his shoulder injury had something to do with the drop off in goals, but I still don't think he's worth the money he's asking for.  This is just his second year in the league, and he's demanding the kind of money that top notch forwards get, which he isn't. 

    Krecji was willing to take less money to stay here.  Why can't Kessel just do the same?  Oh yeah, he's selfish.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: question for hockey minds : That's not what I'm saying, "duinne".  Yeah, maybe his shoulder injury had something to do with the drop off in goals, but I still don't think he's worth the money he's asking for.  This is just his second year in the league, and he's demanding the kind of money that top notch forwards get, which he isn't.  Krecji was willing to take less money to stay here.  Why can't Kessel just do the same?  Oh yeah, he's selfish.
    Posted by TimThomas-god[/QUOTE]

    If you know how much Kessel is asking for, please share it with us.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TimThomas-god. Show TimThomas-god's posts

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    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: question for hockey minds : If you know how much Kessel is asking for, please share it with us.
    Posted by duinne[/QUOTE]

    Kessel is looking for a contract upwards of 4 million.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

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    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: question for hockey minds : Kessel is looking for a contract upwards of 4 million.
    Posted by TimThomas-god[/QUOTE]

    Scource? Link?

    Unless you're Phil Kessel, Wade Arnott or Peter Chiarelli, you can't make this statement with any certainty.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TimThomas-god. Show TimThomas-god's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: question for hockey minds : Scource? Link? Unless you're Phil Kessel, Wade Arnott or Peter Chiarelli, you can't make this statement with any certainty.
    Posted by duinne[/QUOTE]

    You asked for the link and here it is.  Now, I know it isn't a fact that has been confirmed by Chiarelli, but its the only information us fans have to work with.

    http://www.prosportsdaily.com/comments/predators-covet-boston-bruins-scorer-273003.html 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: question for hockey minds : You asked for the link and here it is.  Now, I know it isn't a fact that has been confirmed by Chiarelli, but its the only information us fans have to work with. http://www.prosportsdaily.com/comments/predators-covet-boston-bruins-scorer-273003.html  
    Posted by TimThomas-god[/QUOTE]

    "Kessel is reportedly looking for a contract worth $4 million or more."

    There is no attribution here. This is the reporter speaking, and he used the word "reportedly."

    Unless there is an attributed report from someone directly involved in the negotiations, this is speculation. You cannot say with certainty that Kessel is asking for $4 million or more. You can guess, you can say "I think," but you cannot state as fact, as you have repeatedly done, that he's asking for $4 million.



     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BruinsUnite. Show BruinsUnite's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    TimThomas-god:
    "
    Phil Kessel is an extremely INCONSISTENT player"

    LOL


    "...who has potential, but is asking for way more money than he's worth."

    LOL

    • First, if that is what you call potential then almost no one in the NHL ever realizes their potential offensively.
    • Secondly, you haven't a clue how much money Kessel really wants and neither doea anyone else. Yet.
    "He does not deserve the kind of contract Krejci got."

    • They are not the same kind of player and to even make this comparison reveals a lot about one's knowledge.

    "Yes, he had 36 goals, but just look at when he scored them: 1st Half of Year- 24 Goals 2nd Half of Year- ONLY 12 Goals His goal total was split in half!  Obviously, defenders caught on to the fact that Kessel only has one move (the toe drag along the boards)." 

    • Oh is that obvious? I thought he was injured for some time in the second half, but never even got diagnosed, since he was too busy playing, and I was under the impression that he also missed a few games in the second half. But then again, I just go on things like facts.
    Come on, man. I dont' like to be mean on these boards but this was too easy.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BruinsUnite. Show BruinsUnite's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: question for hockey minds : Using your logic, Crosby must be terrible too because he does not hit... unless you take into account that wimpy attempt at a fight he got into last year.  Their job is to score, not to fight.  They make their teams better because of what they do.  You can look at Pitts TEAM #'s all you want-they have 2 of the top scorers/playmakers in the NHL on that team and they won the Cup.  PK is a big-time scoring talent and he makes the Bruins much better.  If you think they are better off without him, i seriously doubt your knowledge of the game. However you feel about the contract situation, you should at least give this kid props for what he CAN do and the importance of that...
    Posted by stingerjp[/QUOTE]

    EXCELLENT. Hope to see you on here throughout the season.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bruins6. Show Bruins6's posts

    Re: question for hockey minds

    I know he is Julien's guy, but I would try and trade Ryder and keep Kessel
    Ryder is no Frank Selke either ...

     
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    Re: question for hockey minds

    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]Why so high on Kessel?  We don't lose any goal scoring by trading him, with Sturm coming back, that's at least 25 of Kessel's goals right there, expect Lucic to improve from his 17 goals, there's a couple more, expect Recchi to to have a big year as he scored 10 in 18 games last year. Add in Bergeron progress from his concussion, he might return to a 25-30 goal guy but he will at least be better than his 8 from last year plus the continuing growth of Bitz and Wheeler will chip in a few more.  Kessel one flash in a pan year is more than covered. Getting rid of Kessel now is the better option than losing Kobesaw and Sturm (or other player) now to cover the salary demands Kessel wants.  Kessel is a one way player and I'll go further by saying it is Savy that is making Kessel great. Savy can make anyone a better player as evident with his track record in Atlanta and Boston.  The Bruins made all the right moves this off season, they signed Krecji first and kept the grit in the corners instead of trading away a few players for Kessel's one way game and his salary demands.  I'll take Kobesaw's style, heart, toughness and 25 goals anyday over Kessel.
    Posted by ssags111[/QUOTE]

    The Bruins have guys who can check. Hell, any team can go out and get a guy to check. What the B's don't have is a guy under 23 who can score nearly 40 goals. Maybe that's why any team would have him. Kobasew and Sturm? Seriously? I would gladly pack their bags for them if it meant keeping Kessel. Bruins fans need to figure it out, man.

     
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    Re: question for hockey minds

    In Response to Re: question for hockey minds:
    [QUOTE]One, Neely was traded after a 14 goal season.. prior to his 36 goal season, and would never have had the career in Vancouver that he had in Boston as they would not have utilized him that way.. the kessel progression 11-19-36 next 68?? stupidest line of thought I have ever seen..  There is a huge gap between scoring 36 goals with Savard as your center and being a legit threat to score 50 on your own, the kid hasnt put up back to back 30 goal seasons yet, hasn't had 2 20 goal seasons or even a 40 goal season.. 50 goal scorers are rare, and the real deal 50 goal scorers are dominate players way beyond anything we have seen from kessel... this is the entire list of 50 goal seasons since 2000, aside from cheechoo and hedjuk (who also had outstanding centermen),  Phil isnt in the class of any of these guys.. Alexander Ovechkin Washington Capitals 2008-09 56 79 Alexander Ovechkin Washington Capitals 2007–08 65 82 Ilya Kovalchuk Atlanta Thrashers 2007–08 52 79 Jarome Iginla Calgary Flames 2007–08 50 82 Dany Heatley Ottawa Senators 2006–07 50 82 Vincent Lecavalier Tampa Bay Lightning 2006–07 52 82 Jonathan Cheechoo San Jose Sharks 2005–06 56 82 Dany Heatley Ottawa Senators 2005–06 50 82 Jaromir Jagr New York Rangers 2005–06 54 82 Ilya Kovalchuk Atlanta Thrashers 2005–06 52 78 Alexander Ovechkin Washington Capitals 2005-06 52 81 Milan Hejduk Colorado Avalanche 2002–03 50 82 Jarome Iginla Calgary Flames 2001–02 52 82 Pavel Bure Florida Panthers 2000–01 59 82 Jaromir Jagr Pittsburgh Penguins 2000–01 52 81 Joe Sakic Colorado Avalanche 2000–01 54 82
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]

    The question posed originally was to be answered quite logically.  There is no one who was traded at 21 who had scored 50 goals.  My only thought was Neely. I was not comparing the players, but only answering the question although it was not really an answer but an obvious reflection on how management can give up on the potentiality of a young player.  I stated I was not a hockey mind like some on these posts.  So I love your caustic reply.  The issue is you did not answer the question either.  Just bantered on how I was not too smart.  The fact is the Bruins are not keeping Kessel.  Too bad!  Look at the history of 1st round picks in any sport, you will suddenly realize the potential growth of Kessel is not matched with the uncertainty of the draft picks.  A solid player is needed to go with the picks in my opinion.  Lastly, I agree Dupont is in the same league as Burke, drumming up the attention so more can be done to sell themselves.  

     
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