Question re LTIR

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Devanjan. Show Devanjan's posts

    Question re LTIR

    A hypothetical question- 

    Assuming that Savvy and Sturm both miss 41 games (and are on the LTIR during that period) and both return for the balance of the season,  - does that mean that the B's can spend up to $3,778,500 for a replacement player? ($2,003,500 + $1,775,000) for the entire season?  
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    Unfortunately, no.  It allows the team to exceed the cap by ~$7.5M* while both are on the LTIR, but once they are back the daily-salaries will have to work out again.

    In fact, having players on the LTIR that come back midseason like that would more-or-less kill the "pro-rating" of contracts traded for midseason, as the team would not be accruing any left-over cap space.

    *Including the salaries of Savard and Sturm.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    Wait - can we disentangle two things here?  Because I'm not sure I get DrCC's point and want to clarify the why.

    Dr. - are you saying that teams are capped on daily salaries?  So - using really rough math here - if teams pay out 133 roster days during the year, they can't pay over $448K ($59.6M/133 days) on any one day?  Or are you saying that teams can only access that exemption while the players are on LTIR, not after?  My understanding of this is that, once the season starts, your cap compliance is a measure of real dollars spent to date + salary commitments to the current roster (measured daily).  So something like this (I don't vouch for the precision of the numbers, but you'll get the drift):
     
    Bruins payroll to start the season if Sturm and Savard are on LTIR and Jordan Caron makes the team: ~$55.88M

    Daily roster rate of ($55.88/133) - $420156.17

    If Sturm and Savard both miss 60 roster days, so the team pays this rate for 60 days, the total salary payed to date would be $25,209,370.38.  That's about $1.68M less than if they were at the cap.  If you amortize that savings over the remaining 73 roster days, the Bruins would be able to spend $471,104.51 per day for the rest of the year - about $23K more/day.  $23K/day is the equivalent of the salary of a $3M/year player, so in theory,the Bruins would be cap compliant adding a $3M player on day 61.

    What am I missing Dr.?

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    Before I start, I have to admit that this is based on my understanding of how LTIR works, and while I tried to get that understanding by reading the CBA, I haven't read a part that makes it clear how the daily functioning of the LTIR works.

    First, you are right, the cap is done in a season-to-date manner.  This season has 186 days, but for the sake of simplicity I will use your 133.
    What you missed is that the $56,000 payed to Savard and Sturm each day still counts towards the cap.  $28,000 goes right to the cap, and the remaining $28,000 is counted towards the LTIR.  So if they come back after 60 games, the team will have spent exactly to the cap up until that day, and built up $1.68M in LTIR exemption space.

    The next day, they will have spent $25,209,370.20, and can spend up to $25,629,526.37 - so that day's salary has to be $420,156.17 or under, the equivalent to salaries that use up the whole cap for the whole season.  They wouldn't have any money saved up.

    If someone knows a spot in the CBA that clearly shows that I am wrong, please point it out.  When I have some spare time to poke around some more, I will, but for now this is how I believe it works.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eric66. Show Eric66's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    In Response to Re: Question re LTIR:

    As far as I understand the cap, it is calculated on a day-to-day basis and in total at the end of the year. For day-to-day cap management, at no point in the year may you exceed the cap in total player salary. exceptions:

    1. LTIR, you may exceed the cap up to the amount of the player on LTIR's salary for a replacement player. Or, simply but not exactly, a player on LTIR's salary does not count toward the cap (for day-to-day calculation) while he is on LTIR.

    2. Bonuses (earned or not) do not count toward the cap for day-to day calculation. You may exceed the cap by up to 7.5% in potential bonus money. (not every year is done this way)

    On the side, you do not need to divide total cap space by # of days ($59.4M/186) for D2D calculations, it works out the same since you would also be dividing each players salary by 186 (# of days).

    This means that you may not save up salary for a later day. as in having a $50M payroll the first half of the year, saving up $4.6M in space ($9.4M/2), then having a $62M payroll the second half and finishing with total salary paid out of $56M, $3.4M under the cap.  Day-to-day cap calculation prevents this. I believe this answers Devanjan's and Bookboy's Questions.
    This is also how the cap is calculated in the Playoffs. (day-to-day)

    Now on to End of the year cap calculation.  This is total salary paid including all earned bonuses and some LTIR salary. calculating how much LTIR salary is included gets a little tricky.
    To the best of my understanding, the amount of the LTIR salary that exceeds the cap does not count, but the amount that fits under the cap does count. example: we have a total team salary of $62M, with a player earning $4M on LTIR. The $1.4M portion still under the cap ($59.4M) would count at the end of the year, but the $2.6M overage would not. You would have to calculate these bits daily as DrCC did but im not going to get into that, this post is already long enough. :)

    So at the end of the year you add together all regular salary with LTIR salary as stated above, and (since you cant exceed the cap on a D2D basis) you get a number at or below the cap. You then add in all earned bonus money and if you end up over the cap you get penalized that amount next year against the cap, just as the bruins and about 8 other teams did last year. And with $3.6M In potential bonuses to Recchi and Seguin this year, Chiarelli will have to try and stay at around $57M or so to avoid another penalty. It will be tough, for as long as Sturm and/or Savard are on LTIR we will be at the ceiling before counting bonuses. Don't expect any trade deadline additions this year. Sorry for the length.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    You are right that there are two calculations, and that the LTIR used factors in on the full-year calculation for the purpose of determining violations.
    CBA Link
    On page 201, "Averaged Club Salary" is defined as "... the entire aggregate amount committed by each Club in a League Year, calculated daily, as Player Salaries and Bonuses in that League Year..."  On page 221, 50.9(a)(i), it specifies that players on the Injured Reserve be included in the daily Averaged Club Salary.  50.10(d)(ii) also clearly states the the injured player's Averaged Salary continues to count towards the Averaged Club Salary.

    You can, indeed, save up cap space.  That is how the whole "pro-rating" contracts acquired mid-season works.  An example of this is Illustration#2 on page 209.  A team with $37M payroll in a $40M cap season can sign a player to a $6M face-value contract halfway through the season.  This means that for the second half of the season, the daily-calculated Averaged Club Salary will be (assuming a 100 day season) $0.43M - when the daily limit would be $0.4M.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    In Response to Re: Question re LTIR:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Question re LTIR : This is nearly* correct. (using your numbers) A team can't pay over $448K on any day, not including bonuses and salary on LTIR. Also, at the end of the year if bonuses and LTIR salary (the portion that counts) puts you over $59.4M in total paid salary, the team is penalized next year. *more precisely, you cannot at any time have a team salary (not including bonuses and LTIR) that exceeds  $59.4M, even if you paid less that day. Meaning you cannot have a $59M team salary at the start of the day, add a $1M player  at noon and subtract a $2M player at 12:01. your daily salary would not exceed the cap, but you exceeded it at noon for 1 minute, you would have to subtract the $2M player before adding the $1M player. Its tough to come up with an example but this situation does handcuff a GM at times.
    Posted by Eric66[/QUOTE]

    Are you sure about this?  50.9(a) specifies a 5 pm NYT for calcutating everything based on the current roster, with only practicing/travelling/playing with the team being reasons to add a player back on that was removed before the deadline.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eric66. Show Eric66's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    In Response to Re: Question re LTIR:
    [QUOTE]"Averaged Club Salary" is defined as "... the entire aggregate amount committed by each Club in a League Year, calculated daily, as Player Salaries and Bonuses in that League Year..."  On page 221, 50.9(a)(i), it specifies that players on the Injured Reserve be included in the daily Averaged Club Salary.  50.10(d)(ii) also clearly states the the injured player's Averaged Salary continues to count towards the Averaged Club Salary. [/QUOTE]

    Right, 100% of LTIR salary is counted, but then the replacement player salary that went over the cap is subtracted as "LTIR replacement". I was trying to put it in a way that was easy to understand. It works out to be almost exactly the same.

    [QUOTE]You can, indeed, save up cap space.  That is how the whole "pro-rating" contracts acquired mid-season works.  An example of this is Illustration#2 on page 209.  A team with $37M payroll in a $40M cap season can sign a player to a $6M face-value contract halfway through the season.  This means that for the second half of the season, the daily-calculated Averaged Club Salary will be (assuming a 100 day season) $0.43M - when the daily limit would be $0.4M.
    Posted by DrCC[/QUOTE]

    I see now, you are right, Well done. I should have said:
    You cannot have a payroll* at any time that, If remained unchanged until the end of the season, would have your total payroll exceed $59.4M for the year.
    *not including bonuses and LTIR replacement

    Does that seem right to you?

    Now that I look at it, I believe the way that I described 'Day-to-day cap calculation' in the above post applies in the Playoffs. i.e. you cannot exceed the cap at any time
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eric66. Show Eric66's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    In Response to Re: Question re LTIR:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Question re LTIR : Are you sure about this?  50.9(a) specifies a 5 pm NYT for calcutating everything based on the current roster, with only practicing/travelling/playing with the team being reasons to add a player back on that was removed before the deadline.
    Posted by DrCC[/QUOTE]

    you are right, at least for the regular season. Turns out what I was describing was for the postseason only, sorry. I'm going to remove that post, since it is entirely wrong.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    Yes, that sounds right.  The "if remained unchanged" is about as close to what the CBA says while using terminology us sane people can understand that I've seen.

    I thought the cap went out the window once the playoffs started?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    In Response to Re: Question re LTIR:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Question re LTIR : you are right, at least for the regular season. Turns out what I was describing was for the postseason only, sorry. I'm going to remove that post, since it is entirely wrong.
    Posted by Eric66[/QUOTE]

    The attempt is not worthy of eliminating.... enjoyed your analysis!  DrCC is the best on this subject but he needs to be challenged!  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eric66. Show Eric66's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    In Response to Re: Question re LTIR:
    [QUOTE]I thought the cap went out the window once the playoffs started?
    Posted by DrCC[/QUOTE]

    You mean that (using your above scenario) a 37M team for the first half (in a 40M cap year), that adds a 6M player halfway, for a 43M team for the second half, could then use that 43M team in the playoffs? No. The cap is hard (at 59.4M this year) in the playoffs, you may not exceed it at any time including LTIR players (not 100% on how LTIR is handled in the playoffs).
    Otherwise, a great strategy would be to carry a minimum payroll (43M? or so) until the deadline, stack the team up to around 76M? or so (legal as you pointed out), and then keep that team for the playoffs. It would be completely unfair.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eric66. Show Eric66's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    In Response to Re: Question re LTIR:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Question re LTIR : The attempt is not worthy of eliminating.... enjoyed your analysis!  DrCC is the best on this subject but he needs to be challenged!  
    Posted by islamorada[/QUOTE]


    Thanks, I appreciate that. Too late though, already deleted. :)
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    In Response to Re: Question re LTIR:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Question re LTIR : You mean that (using your above scenario) a 37M team for the first half (in a 40M cap year), that adds a 6M player halfway, for a 43M team for the second half, could then use that 43M team in the playoffs? No. The cap is hard (at 59.4M this year) in the playoffs, you may not exceed it at any time including LTIR players (not 100% on how LTIR is handled in the playoffs). Otherwise, a great strategy would be to carry a minimum payroll (43M? or so) until the deadline, stack the team up to around 76M? or so (legal as you pointed out), and then keep that team for the playoffs. It would be completely unfair.
    Posted by Eric66[/QUOTE]
    I can't find anything in the CBA that specifies, one way or the other.  I had thought that the mechanics of the Lower Limit, Upper Limit, managing trades, keeping future years cap compliant (can't trade for a player in the "rental" type scenario if they have more than a year left and you can't fit their full cap hit with the contracts you currently have signed for the next year) etc. would make the strategy you suggest unfeasible, or at least insanely risky.  Maybe St. Louis should try that this year?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eric66. Show Eric66's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    In Response to Re: Question re LTIR:
    Im going to try again.

    [QUOTE]Wait - can we disentangle two things here?  Because I'm not sure I get DrCC's point and want to clarify the why. Dr. - are you saying that teams are capped on daily salaries?  So - using really rough math here - if teams pay out 133 roster days during the year, they can't pay over $448K ($59.6M/133 days) on any one day?  Or are you saying that teams can only access that exemption while the players are on LTIR, not after?  My understanding of this is that, once the season starts, your cap compliance is a measure of real dollars spent to date + salary commitments to the current roster (measured daily).  [/QUOTE]

    This is correct.

    [QUOTE]So something like this (I don't vouch for the precision of the numbers, but you'll get the drift):   Bruins payroll to start the season if Sturm and Savard are on LTIR and Jordan Caron makes the team: ~$55.88M [/QUOTE]

    No, This would be how the payroll would be calculated if Sturm and Savard were not on the team at all.

    [QUOTE]  Daily roster rate of ($55.88/133) - $420156.17 If Sturm and Savard both miss 60 roster days, so the team pays this rate for 60 days, the total salary payed to date would be $25,209,370.38.  That's about $1.68M less than if they were at the cap.If you amortize that savings over the remaining 73 roster days, the Bruins would be able to spend $471,104.51 per day for the rest of the year - about $23K more/day.  $23K/day is the equivalent of the salary of a $3M/year player, so in theory,the Bruins would be cap compliant adding a $3M player on day 61. What am I missing Dr.?
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    LTIR works differently, and since only overages for replacement players are forgiven, the Bruins will be considered at the ceiling and therefore will accrue no "savings".
    These numbers would be correct if Sturm and Savard were not on the team.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from No4BobbyOrr-GOAT. Show No4BobbyOrr-GOAT's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    DrCC you don't have to worry about next years cap until opening day.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    In Response to Re: Question re LTIR:
    [QUOTE]DrCC you don't have to worry about next years cap until opening day.
    Posted by No4BobbyOrr-GOAT[/QUOTE]
    Bah, I have to leave I will check on this tomorrow - but I am pretty sure that when you acquire a multi-year SPC you have to have the space to fit in it's cap hit every year that it is valid.  Not a big deal since most teams have fewer than 15 players signed a year ahead, but it would bust-up the bring-in-many-high-end-players strategy.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eric66. Show Eric66's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    In Response to Re: Question re LTIR:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Question re LTIR : I can't find anything in the CBA that specifies, one way or the other.  I had thought that the mechanics of the Lower Limit, Upper Limit, managing trades, keeping future years cap compliant (can't trade for a player in the "rental" type scenario if they have more than a year left and you can't fit their full cap hit with the contracts you currently have signed for the next year) etc. would make the strategy you suggest unfeasible, or at least insanely risky.  Maybe St. Louis should try that this year?
    Posted by DrCC[/QUOTE]

    Hm, I was unaware that you needed to keep future years cap compliant during the current season. I was aware that between seasons you could only go over by a percentage (EDIT 10%), and had to be compliant by the start of the season, but I did not know that.
    If a team did try my suggested strategy, they would just have to make sure that most of the players they pick up (at the deadline) had no extra seasons under contract. 

    But thats what the hard cap in the playoffs is for. And if you think about it, the most important place for a cap is the playoffs, if its parity you're going for right? Also, even though I can't find where I read about the playoff hard cap, If there was no cap in the playoffs, and you could therefore attempt my suggested strategy, why hasn't any team done it?
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from No4BobbyOrr-GOAT. Show No4BobbyOrr-GOAT's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    You have to have your roster set before playoffs begin, so player would have to be in your organization before deadline???
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    There's an old Bob McKenzie post on TSN.ca that has the rules on this roughly laid out - there's a "tagging rule" that applies when signing extensions etc..  Not sure how it would apply to a trade.

    But as for loading up at the deadline for a run - sure, you can do that as long as your next year's payroll is still compliant and you can fit the remaining portion of the contract you acquire into your salary structure/cap.  So if you had a $43M payroll and you made last-minute deals to aquire Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, and Lecavalier (and they were all in the last years of their deals), you could carry that roster into the playoffs because you haven't made any commitment that you don't have the available cash against the cap to cover.  It doesn't happen more often because teams close to the salary floor have a hard time competing well enough to make such deals worthwhile for short term runs, and because there aren't many high-impact trade targets at the deadline these days, and because those low salary teams don't have the assets to out-bid the real contenders.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    Sorry - McKenzie on tagging rule:  http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/bob_mckenzie/?id=299097
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from No4BobbyOrr-GOAT. Show No4BobbyOrr-GOAT's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    Tx BB, I never seen this in the CBA, but never printed the encyclopedia to read it, only browse it to the LTI or whatever is relevant, not very user friendly.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    I'd actually missed the part of the text on "tagged payroll room", it seems it is more complicated than I thought.  My first impression is that it means there is some wiggle-room.

    User friendly like a ... a...   bah, I'm terrible at analogies.  Not-user-friendly is definitely an understatement.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: Question re LTIR

    User-friendly like the Skynet.

    User-friendly like heroin.

    User-friendly like 15 steps of IKEA directions.
     
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