SEGUIN VS KESSEL

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Devanjan. Show Devanjan's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    This is an unfair question. 

    Kessel was originally predicted to be a #1 pick but fell to #5 based on questions of "character" and "commitment". His diagnosis with cancer and playing for 10 or so games with the knowledge of his condition should answer any questions about character. So should his subsequent play on his return.  Commitment to the team and self improvement have never been answered.

    Kessel is not a reporters dream and he does not like the spotlight. Granted he might not be articulate but that does not (nor should it) affect his play on the ice. I will grant his commitment to the team and his self development could be better, but hey he got where he is on talent and perhaps he believes that talent is all that is necessary - after all it got him this far. I will also grant that he appears to be moody and that might not endear him to his teammates.

    I do remember predictions of Bruin's doom and gloom if he were not re-signed by the Bruins - but hey, he didn't like Boston and wanted greener pastures.  Well he got them.  He was not gong to perform at his best for the B's so PC did his best.
     
    How Seguin performs is very much dependent on his position on the team and responsibility  given and assumed. Both Kessel and Seguin were drafted as centers and Kessel was shifted to right wing much as Seguin mightbe.  Seguin has had a year of Junior to practice the position whereas Kessel had to learn on the job. Seguin has shown himself to be articulate and camera friendly - well he has had year under the spotlight to prepare himself and to become more comfortable. 

    If you want to compare maturity at given points in time  - that is a fair comparable as going forward it will impact coachability, willingness to improve, commitment to the team and ultimately one's acceptance by his teammates. 

    With respect to speed, How did Recchi survive all of these years without it? For that matter Paille has it and appears to have hands of clay.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TuukkainNet. Show TuukkainNet's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]Seguin's already bigger than Kessel - PK's 6' 189, TS is 6'1" and over 190. I've never heard anyone question Seguin's speed. 

    Exactly....in fact he is close to 200 and everyone was raving about his speed at camp..in particular his speed with the puck.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from bruins8. Show bruins8's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]bruins8, your getting a little ridiculous here. if you really think there is any chance that this was a bad trade, you STILL don't understand the value of a top 5 pick (and yes, i am well aware that kessel was 5th overall). It is possible to make a good trade that doesn't work out. I use the Eric Gagne example. When the sox brought him to boston, it was a great trade, but didn't work out. This trade was already a great trade in my opinion, but it remains to be seen how it will turn out.
    Posted by pbergeron37[/QUOTE]

    i guess either im mis writing it or you are mis understanding....my point is long term i'd take  seguin over kessel...but the bruins team in my opnion is close to the cup and with kessel this season and next i think they would be better overall...i understand seguin by all accounts will be a legit top tier player and im very happy the bruins have him because they dont have kessel...yes i agree in 4-5 years seguin maybe the better player...but this year and next i personally think kessel is better thats all
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    I am going to go on record in regards to who "wins" this trade by stating that you are generally consider to win the trade if you get the better player (not the better player right now).  If kessel is a better player then Seguin, or who the bruins draft next year it will be considered a good trade for tampa, if he is not it will be considered a good trade for the bruins. 

    Much like the samsanov trade for a 2nd round pick that turned into lucic is considered a win for the bruins, that is how this trade will be regarded in the end.

    Pederson for Neely is considered a lop sided trade by most and Pederson was a great player till injuries ruined his career.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dc-bruins-fan. Show dc-bruins-fan's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]talk to me when seguin scores 36
    Posted by bruins8[/QUOTE]

    how about i talk to you win kessel wins a cup? thats what this team is trying to do, not have many high-scoring players, which doesnt necessarily bring success.

    how many hawks scored 36 this year? 0.

    Kane: 30
    Toews: 25
    Sharp: 25
    Hossa: 24

    do you think kessel's better than them too? probably not, because you realize those other players add a dimension that kessel won't/can't. that's the same reason many think seguin > kessel.


     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL : how about i talk to you win kessel wins a cup? thats what this team is trying to do, not have many high-scoring players, which doesnt necessarily bring success. how many hawks scored 36 this year? 0. Kane: 30 Toews: 25 Sharp: 25 Hossa: 24 do you think kessel's better than them too? probably not, because you realize those other players add a dimension that kessel won't/can't. that's the same reason many think seguin /> kessel.
    Posted by dc-bruins-fan[/QUOTE]

    Thats a good point, I'd also add two more things to that, the wings never wona  cup while yzerman was pouring in his 165point seasons, when he became a more responsible player they had there greatest success..

    I would also call the trade a "loss" for the leafs based solely on the fact that burke stated "we picked 7th this year we don't expect to pick that high again" after signing kessel..

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]bruins8, you need to learn the value of top 5 picks
    Posted by pbergeron37[/QUOTE]

    So do you.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from paulbking. Show paulbking's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL : i guess either im mis writing it or you are mis understanding....my point is long term i'd take  seguin over kessel...but the bruins team in my opnion is close to the cup and with kessel this season and next i think they would be better overall...i understand seguin by all accounts will be a legit top tier player and im very happy the bruins have him because they dont have kessel...yes i agree in 4-5 years seguin maybe the better player...but this year and next i personally think kessel is better thats all
    Posted by bruins8[/QUOTE]
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]Kessel is not faster than Seguin I've seen em both at same stage I would say Sequin is equal to Kessel's speed and more talent!
    Posted by petermind[/QUOTE]

                            Your nuts.After Kessels dev camp 2 things stuck out His speed and he did not like to be hit.After Seguins his eye for the net stuck out but his speed did not.Lucic stayed his first year because he was a banger.Wheeler stayed because he was 6-5.Do you think he would have ever started the season with the Bs if he was Seguins 6-0. I dont think so.We are finding out that Wheels may be a bit more Cerebral for the Bruin faithfull.Muscle-size and or speed is what keeps a rookie in the NHL these days.Seguin will start with the Bs but I think his speed and Size-muscle are now just average-maybee below by NHL standards.The only way I see him staying up and making a dent is 2 great linemates.He will get that opportunity,but he must cash in quick or it could mean 6 minutes a game or providence.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]NAS we have a difference of opinion in regard to top picks. In the salary cap era, I think that the most valuable players are the top pick in the entry level contracts. The bruins are in a position to get back to back top 5 picks, other teams to do that, pittburgh, chicago, washington, all doing pretty well. In the cap era, top picks are so important, in my opinion
    Posted by pbergeron37[/QUOTE]

    Depends entirely on who the picks are.. next years draft class is expected to be pretty weak, might not be much value in a first rounder, probably part of the reason Burke was willing to part with 2 first rounders.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from paulbking. Show paulbking's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]Kessel scored 30 goals, yes. He also makes 5 million bucks and didn'twant to play here. Seguin could make up to (but probably not quite) 3.75 million. Say he scores 20 goals and ends up making somewhere in the mid to high 2 million range. That makes him a better value than Kessel. Plus, he seems like a determined, hard working player who wants to earn every second of playing time rather than being handed everything. Can you say that about Kessel?
    Posted by Blackmale[/QUOTE]kessel wanted to play here, the bruins didn't want him here for all the obvious reasons stated here. they signed everybody before kessel that off season,  then tried to trade him at the draft, which got all screwed up. then traded Aaron ward for cap room and didn't sign kessel,they signed d morris for christ sakes!how would you feel about all that if you were kessel coming off a 36 goal season and cancer and playing hurt with a torn labrum and separated shoulder in the playoffs?  what a p*ssy!! ?then his agent being savvy ,realized this was not happening for phil in boston and told the bruins to beat it, which i don't blame him for 1 bit!  the guy got phil 28 million  THATS HIS JOB!  had the b's signed kessel first that off season instaed off krejci and the others it might have been different , but they did not. the bruins didnt like his work ethic, his commitment, his toughness, and wanted to dump him.that was a mistake as 2009 showed , but they lucked out with the maple laffs s**cking producing seguin a potential generational bruin and knight who looks like he's jetson fast and skilled. PHIL KESSEL IS RICK MIDDELTON RE INCARNATED, IN TEN YRS HE WILL HAVE OVER 400 GOALS FOR WHO??? but i would rather have seguin and knight and hopefully adam larson next draft. go bruins i want a cup!!
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL :                         Your nuts.After Kessels dev camp 2 things stuck out His speed and he did not like to be hit.After Seguins his eye for the net stuck out but his speed did not.Lucic stayed his first year because he was a banger.Wheeler stayed because he was 6-5.Do you think he would have ever started the season with the Bs if he was Seguins 6-0. I dont think so.We are finding out that Wheels may be a bit more Cerebral for the Bruin faithfull.Muscle-size and or speed is what keeps a rookie in the NHL these days.Seguin will start with the Bs but I think his speed and Size-muscle are now just average-maybee below by NHL standards.The only way I see him staying up and making a dent is 2 great linemates.
    Posted by hockey-101[/QUOTE]

    If we keep him up he can't be sent down..
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from paulbking. Show paulbking's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL : Depends entirely on who the picks are.. next years draft class is expected to be pretty weak, might not be much value in a first rounder, probably part of the reason Burke was willing to part with 2 first rounders.
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]next yrs top round looks excellent!!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]  I guess they don't need skill then just size or speed,if you have won of those you are nhl ready.
    Posted by jenken14[/QUOTE]

                  The just skill guys tend to be have a tough adjustment to the NHL.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL :                         Your nuts.After Kessels dev camp 2 things stuck out His speed and he did not like to be hit.After Seguins his eye for the net stuck out but his speed did not.Lucic stayed his first year because he was a banger.Wheeler stayed because he was 6-5.Do you think he would have ever started the season with the Bs if he was Seguins 6-0. I dont think so.We are finding out that Wheels may be a bit more Cerebral for the Bruin faithfull.Muscle-size and or speed is what keeps a rookie in the NHL these days.Seguin will start with the Bs but I think his speed and Size-muscle are now just average-maybee below by NHL standards.The only way I see him staying up and making a dent is 2 great linemates.He will get that opportunity,but he must cash in quick or it could mean 6 minutes a game or providence.
    Posted by hockey-101[/QUOTE]

    Really.

    http://static.foxsports.com/content/fscom/img/2010/06/01/Tyler-Seguin-_20100601210941_0_0.JPG

    "Seguin proved he could back up his pop-video looks with pro-worthy performance, scoring well above average in the battery of strength and conditioning tests..."

    http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/Tyler-Seguin-takes-lead-over-Taylor-Hall-060110

    And BTW, he can't play in Providence this year. It's either Boston or Juniors. A little knowledge is a beautiful thing.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from bim09. Show bim09's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    Seguin is quicker than Phil, imo
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BruinsCountry. Show BruinsCountry's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]talk to me when seguin scores 36
    Posted by bruins8[/QUOTE]


    Talk to me when the ONLY important thing about hockey players AND the teams they play for is "goals for". 

    Kessel is a complete, and utter joke at $5.5 million per year.  Think there was a reason only ONE team out of 29 pursued Kessel?  And already, that one team is showing signs of regretting it.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL : Really. http://static.foxsports.com/content/fscom/img/2010/06/01/Tyler-Seguin-_20100601210941_0_0.JPG "Seguin proved he could back up his pop-video looks with pro-worthy performance, scoring well above average in the battery of strength and conditioning tests..." http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/Tyler-Seguin-takes-lead-over-Taylor-Hall-060110 And BTW, he can't play in Providence this year. It's either Boston or Juniors. A little knowledge is a beautiful thing.
    Posted by duinne[/QUOTE]

           Great picture,This kid is about skill-points,everything else is just good PR.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BadHabitude. Show BadHabitude's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL : Depends entirely on who the picks are.. next years draft class is expected to be pretty weak, might not be much value in a first rounder, probably part of the reason Burke was willing to part with 2 first rounders.
    Posted by rolerhoky19[/QUOTE]

    Forget about that idea of next years draft class is supposed to be weak.  They said that about this years draft.  These kids are growing at about a foot a second so there is no telling about next years draft.  In the case of a bad draft year, like 2007, first 2 picks were keepers.  We stand a decent chance of getting the #1 overall next year.

    Everybody at the bottom improved - except Toronto.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BruinsNumber4. Show BruinsNumber4's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    well it seems to have worked out, time will tell, and top five or not would you really be satisfied with the trade if toronto had finnished better????

    why is it that the Bruins can't seem to fix locker room issues before they turn into a trade?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]well it seems to have worked out, time will tell, and top five or not would you really be satisfied with the trade if toronto had finnished better???? why is it that the Bruins can't seem to fix locker room issues before they turn into a trade?
    Posted by BruinsNumber4[/QUOTE]

    What locker room issues?

    If you're referring to Kessel, he was offered more money by Toronto than the Bruins were willing to give him ($5+ million). If he'd agreed to less, they could have lived with the "locker room issues."  It wasn't that he was loathed - guys like Wheeler, Krejci and Savard have said they were friends. He didn't work hard; that doesn't mean he was the anti-Christ. I don't understand why so many Bruins fans feel the need to demonize the guy.

    He wanted more money, and he apparently wasn't happy about playing in a defensively responsible system. It didn't work out. That's all. And Chiarelli got a tremendous return for him (not just Seguin, but Knight, and next year's top Leafs pick as well). Yes, it was a gamble, but isn't gambling part of a GM's job?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    We'll go around and around on this until beantowngm is Bogie6, because even after their careers are over, there will be those who defend their guy against the obvious evidence by saying they played under more conservative coaches, with less adept centres/wingers, with more injuries, and that was in another country and besides the wench is dead.

    So I'll say this as much as it pains me - bruins8 is right about one thing that requires absolutely no prognostication.  The Bruins struggled to score goals and were a worse offensive team last year with draft picks in the kitty and no first line RW.  I would not have thought that would be the case, and I still doubt that Kessel would have helped much.  Savard had an anti-contract-year year even when he was healthy.  Injuries, blah blah.  And a severe down-turn in the offense from the blue line.  Put all those things together and I'm guessing Kessel would have been sucked down, not dragging the rest of his teammate up.  The one thing that stayed constant was the team's defensive performance, and given that that's not Kessel's game, he might even have hurt the team.  But that's all speculation.  The fact is, he went, and they were worse without him.  It remains to be seen if that's true this year with Seguin.  He might not match Kessel goal for goal or point for point, but his impact on the team might be comparable, and if he's even close to comparable in terms of positive impact, that's a huge win for Boston.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BruinsNumber4. Show BruinsNumber4's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL : What locker room issues? If you're referring to Kessel, he was offered more money by Toronto than the Bruins were willing to give him ($5+ million). If he'd agreed to less, they could have lived with the "locker room issues."  It wasn't that he was loathed - guys like Wheeler, Krejci and Savard have said they were friends. He didn't work hard; that doesn't mean he was the anti-Christ. I don't understand why so many Bruins fans feel the need to demonize the guy. He wanted more money, and he apparently wasn't happy about playing in a defensively responsible system. It didn't work out. That's all. And Chiarelli got a tremendous return for him (not just Seguin, but Knight, and next year's top Leafs pick as well). Yes, it was a gamble, but isn't gambling part of a GM's job?
    Posted by duinne[/QUOTE]

    point taken,your right about the money, but it seems like some on this thread look at the turn out this time and start thinking you can constantly trade talent for draft picks and have it work out. aside from the risk on unproven guys it turns into a perpetual development situation. i forget who it was on these pages but they put it well when they called the Bruins a last stop for old vets and a first stop for undeveloped talent. dont get me wrong i like the moves lately and im hopeful. but we had a couple decades of revolving door hockey players in Boston.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL : point taken,your right about the money, but it seems like some on this thread look at the turn out this time and start thinking you can constantly trade talent for draft picks and have it work out. aside from the risk on unproven guys it turns into a perpetual development situation. i forget who it was on these pages but they put it well when they called the Bruins a last stop for old vets and a first stop for undeveloped talent. dont get me wrong i like the moves lately and im hopeful. but we had a couple decades of revolving door hockey players in Boston.
    Posted by BruinsNumber4[/QUOTE]

    The older administrations (Sinden, O'Connell etc.) are out; you have to consider what's happened in the time since Chiarelli's administration took over. The only "old vet" I see on this team is Recchi, and IMHO you can argue he's played a key role. As for "first stop for undeveloped talent," they've drafted/developed in recent years Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic and Hunwick, and traded for Rask and Boychuk, picked up Wheeler, have made it a point to re-sign all of them (pending Bergeron, who I believe will re-up this winter), and appear to be building the franchise around them. That's certainly how it looks from here.
     
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    [QUOTE]NAS we have a difference of opinion in regard to top picks. In the salary cap era, I think that the most valuable players are the top pick in the entry level contracts. The bruins are in a position to get back to back top 5 picks, other teams to do that, pittburgh, chicago, washington, all doing pretty well. In the cap era, top picks are so important, in my opinion
    Posted by pbergeron37[/QUOTE]

    Are you attributing part of the Caps recent success to Karl Alzner?  He and Backstrom went back to back for the Caps, and were Washington's only top five picks post-lockout.

    It's amazing how much value you put on these picks, with so little data to even use.  From the '07 draft to the present, only 11 drafted players have appeared in 100+ games.  In '05, there were twice as many poor picks (thus far) than quality picks in the top half.  The '06 draft was a good one.

    With all of this information taken into account, can you explain to me what information you're using to place such a high value on the picks? 


     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share