SEGUIN VS KESSEL

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    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
      This is my thought.A first round 1-5 pick should never be obtained via trade but where a team ended up in the standings.Give those kids more of a chance to stick.
    Posted by hockey-101


    I get where you're coming from - the appetite for rookie pheoms in hockey is bizarre and insatiable.  But the name of the game isn't to get the kids into the NHL as fast as possible.  Plenty of kids are given too smooth a road to an NHL pay cheque and end up crapping out in short order because there's too much pressure too soon.  Daigle, for example.  He had 20 goals and 51 points in his first year in the league - second on the Senioritas.  That's one more goal and one fewer point than Bergeron had last year to lead the Bruins.  He had an even-more respectable 37 points in 47 games in the shortened season - .79ppg or about 60 points for a full year.  Injuries killed him in his third year, but he was back to 51 points with a career-best 26 goals in his fourth.  Then the pressure of being the annointed one got to him - in an era of 120+ point Art Ross winners, 51 points for a #1 overall scoring star in his fourth year looks weak.   He played for four NHL teams over the next four years, retired to become an actor, came back because he was broke and in his second year of his come-back matched his rookie totals exactly with Minnesota.  He's in Europe now where he can be a ppg player in the Swiss league.  Who knows what might have happened if he'd been given a chance to develop away from the glare of a brutal franchise in need of rescue?

    The only people who benefit from draftees making it immediately are the draftees, their agents, and a car dealer somewhere who sells a crazy ride to a kid from Saskatchewan who's never been in a vehicle made later than 1985.  Teams benefit from putting draftees in position to succeed.  If that means the first step is back to the CHL, then a year in the AHL, so be it.  That'll be Colborne's route, and there's nothing wrong with that.
     
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    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

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    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL : You can't discriminate that way. How would you enforce it? When Toronto made that trade, they had no idea where they'd finish in the standings. What would you do, void the trade because they finished next to last? You either allow teams to trade draft picks (as in hockey or football), or you don't (baseball). Period. Regardless, if a player is good enough to play in the NHL, he'll play.
    Posted by duinne


               Here is my problem, and it may be Seguins,and I know it was Kessels,the beloved POWER PLAY TIME.One of the post mentioned Tavarez compared to Seguin.Tavarez scored 1/2 of his total 24 goals on the power play.I doubt Seguin is going to be able to step over the current Bruin lineup to get those pp minutes.Most of these head strong 1st,2nd picks want the beloved power play.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL : I get where you're coming from - the appetite for rookie pheoms in hockey is bizarre and insatiable.  But the name of the game isn't to get the kids into the NHL as fast as possible.  Plenty of kids are given too smooth a road to an NHL pay cheque and end up crapping out in short order because there's too much pressure too soon.  Daigle, for example.  He had 20 goals and 51 points in his first year in the league - second on the Senioritas.  That's one more goal and one fewer point than Bergeron had last year to lead the Bruins.  He had an even-more respectable 37 points in 47 games in the shortened season - .79ppg or about 60 points for a full year.  Injuries killed him in his third year, but he was back to 51 points with a career-best 26 goals in his fourth.  Then the pressure of being the annointed one got to him - in an era of 120+ point Art Ross winners, 51 points for a #1 overall scoring star in his fourth year looks weak.   He played for four NHL teams over the next four years, retired to become an actor, came back because he was broke and in his second year of his come-back matched his rookie totals exactly with Minnesota.  He's in Europe now where he can be a ppg player in the Swiss league.  Who knows what might have happened if he'd been given a chance to develop away from the glare of a brutal franchise in need of rescue? The only people who benefit from draftees making it immediately are the draftees, their agents, and a car dealer somewhere who sells a crazy ride to a kid from Saskatchewan who's never been in a vehicle made later than 1985.  Teams benefit from putting draftees in position to succeed.  If that means the first step is back to the CHL, then a year in the AHL, so be it.  That'll be Colborne's route, and there's nothing wrong with that.
    Posted by Bookboy007

                       Was Daigle a top 1-5 pick? 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL :            Here is my problem, and it may be Seguins,and I know it was Kessels,the beloved POWER PLAY TIME.One of the post mentioned Tavarez compared to Seguin.Tavarez scored 1/2 of his total 24 goals on the power play.I doubt Seguin is going to be able to step over the current Bruin lineup to get those pp minutes.Most of these head strong 1st,2nd picks want the beloved power play.
    Posted by hockey-101


    OK, disregarding the fact that this has nothing to do with your orginal point...

    From everything we've heard/read about Tyler Seguin, "headstrong" is probably the last word anyone would use to describe him (unless you're referring to his work ethic and determination to succeed, but generally "headstrong" carries a negative connotation). On the contrary, the kid has come across in interviews with the media, and with teams, as humble, hard-working, and with zero sense of entitlement. He's even said, repeatedly, that he knows he has to work hard to make the team. And you're saying he's going to start demanding power play time?

    You're imagining problems that don't exist. Why, I have no clue.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    Your sense of the average top pick in the NHL seems to reflect the NBA or NFL rather than what we've seen over the years in hockey.  It's far, far harder for an NHL rook to step into the dressing room and make demands for ice time.  When they do, it's a much worse sign, too.  That "me first" attitude is harder to carry in this game.  You might end up playing on desperate also-rans until your 30s - just ask Marc Savard.  Granted, some of the European or Russian kids seem to have that smirk about them, but I'm guessing that's more bravado than the kind of diva behaviour you're talking about.

     
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    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

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    Your sense of the average top pick in the NHL seems to reflect the NBA or NFL rather than what we've seen over the years in hockey.  It's far, far harder for an NHL rook to step into the dressing room and make demands for ice time.  When they do, it's a much worse sign, too.  That "me first" attitude is harder to carry in this game.  You might end up playing on desperate also-rans until your 30s - just ask Marc Savard.  Granted, some of the European or Russian kids seem to have that smirk about them, but I'm guessing that's more bravado than the kind of diva behaviour you're talking about.
    Posted by Bookboy007


    Bingo. There's the answer - this guy knows next to nothing about hockey. He's looking at the sport through the prism of the NFL and NBA. That explains a lot, thanks.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL : OK, disregarding the fact that this has nothing to do with your orginal point... From everything we've heard/read about Tyler Seguin, "headstrong" is probably the last word anyone would use to describe him (unless you're referring to his work ethic and determination to succeed, but generally "headstrong" carries a negative connotation). On the contrary, the kid has come across in interviews with the media, and with teams, as humble, hard-working, and with zero sense of entitlement. He's even said, repeatedly, that he know he has to work hard to make the team. And you're saying he's going to start demanding power play time? You're imagining problems that don't exist. Why, I have no clue.
    Posted by duinne

         Was this kid the #1 rated pick or what? If he cant make a powerplay unit on the worst NHL team than something is wrong with the rating system.The NHL-SCOUTS blew this kids head up,lets not kid ourselves.Lets not also kid ourselves with polished bull.hit.We have all seen Sidney whine.All these top #1-2 picks are the same.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

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    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL :                    Was Daigle a top 1-5 pick?
    Posted by hockey-101


    If you don't know the history of Alexander Daigle, I demand that you change your name.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL : If you don't know the history of Alexander Daigle, I demand that you change your name.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


                    #1 pick sens. sorry dont have all the answers.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    Your sense of the average top pick in the NHL seems to reflect the NBA or NFL rather than what we've seen over the years in hockey.  It's far, far harder for an NHL rook to step into the dressing room and make demands for ice time.  When they do, it's a much worse sign, too.  That "me first" attitude is harder to carry in this game.  You might end up playing on desperate also-rans until your 30s - just ask Marc Savard.  Granted, some of the European or Russian kids seem to have that smirk about them, but I'm guessing that's more bravado than the kind of diva behaviour you're talking about.
    Posted by Bookboy007


                Ovy, kovulchuck,I wouldnt mind a little of that Russian head strong confidence in Seguin,thats what I am talking about.I dont know what you mean by Diva,the way they dress?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    Clueless. Absolutely clueless.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

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    Clueless. Absolutely clueless.
    Posted by duinne


           Seguin will have a small window to fit in with the Bs.I hope his confidence stays as pumped as that picture you have of him on your Bedroom wall is.My bet is he wil be squashed in Boston.Last year the #1 pick Tavarez,24 goals, was a -15,You cant do that in Boston.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL :        Seguin will have a small window to fit in with the Bs.I hope his confidence stays as pumped as that picture you have of him on your Bedroom wall is.My bet is he wil be squashed in Boston.Last year the #1 pick Tavarez,24 goals, was a -15,You cant do that in Boston.
    Posted by hockey-101


    You're all over the place, aren't you?

    You seem to have their weird preconceived notions in your head that come out of nowhere, and if someone disproves what you've written, you either go off on a totally different tangent, or write silly responses like this.

    If Tyler Seguin scores 24 goals, most Bruins fans will be pretty damn happy. I know I would. And using plus/minus to judge a rookie player on a lousy team is ridiculous. You really are clueless about this sport, aren't you? Perhaps you should stick to football.


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL : You're all over the place, aren't you? You seem to have their weird preconceived notions in your head that come out of nowhere, and if someone disproves what you've written, you either go off on a totally different tangent, or write silly responses like this. If Tyler Seguin scores 24 goals, most Bruins fans will be pretty damn happy. I know I would. And using plus/minus to judge a rookie player on a lousy team is ridiculous. You really are clueless about this sport, aren't you? Perhaps you should stick to football.
    Posted by duinne

                      Are yiu the same person who wrote Kessel was not being singled out in the Monteal playoff series?I believe you said he was just odd man out or some other Bull,hit you usually write.What are you a public relations person?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    Okay, enough.  You're missing the point here, h101.  NAS is demanding you change your name, and I'm thinking you should a course that shares your screen name, because you're making these huge generalizations about trends, history, patterns to back up your position on Seguin, then you repeatedly demonstrate that you lack the knowledge of the sport and its history to make such generalizations.  Your opinions show obvious holes in your knowledge, so engaging in a debate on the subject is difficult if not pointless.  NAS and duinne disagree on just about everything - though NAS hasn't said if he thinks Tuukka is purty or not - but they agree that you're without a clue here.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

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    Okay, enough.  You're missing the point here, h101.  NAS is demanding you change your name, and I'm thinking you should a course that shares your screen name, because you're making these huge generalizations about trends, history, patterns to back up your position on Seguin, then you repeatedly demonstrate that you lack the knowledge of the sport and its history to make such generalizations.  Your opinions show obvious holes in your knowledge, so engaging in a debate on the subject is difficult if not pointless.  NAS and duinne disagree on just about everything - though NAS hasn't said if he thinks Tuukka is purty or not - but they agree that you're without a clue here.
    Posted by Bookboy007

                         
       In conclusion,any pure talent rookie that lands in Boston,is going to have a long road to tow.History does not lie.I speak the truth and you Bruin loyalists have a hard time accepting that.Is there any wonder why Boston dont not have a franchise player through the past decade.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from duinne. Show duinne's posts

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    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL :                          In conclusion,any pure talent rookie that lands in Boston,is going to have a long road to tow.History does not lie.I speak the truth and you Bruin loyalists have a hard time accepting that.Is there any wonder why Boston dont not have a franchise player through the past decade.
    Posted by hockey-101


    A long road to tow? Good grief, the mental image is priceless. I'm seeing Tyler Seguin with a rope over his shoulder, yanking away at Route 95...

    ROFL. I just can't put this guy on ignore. He's too funny.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    Beware of the curse of pure talent rookies that go through Boston !!!! Mark my words .
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL :                          In conclusion,any pure talent rookie that lands in Boston,is going to have a long road to tow.History does not lie.I speak the truth and you Bruin loyalists have a hard time accepting that.Is there any wonder why Boston dont not have a franchise player through the past decade.
    Posted by hockey-101


    You know we havent had a "pure talent" rookie as you put it in boston in a decade because the team has been solidly "mediocre"  most of your franhise players are drafted at the top of the class.  We haven't been picking at that point.. Maybe you can share so fact as to what franchise players" we drafted after say 15 in the past 10 years.

    Your argument would be stronger if you could mention a few talented rookies we gave up on, or players that left boston to have greater success.. Then again 10 years is far to long of a time frame, different coaching and systems..

    There is some point in your arguement that you are trying to make that is correct, though its cloudy to get to, and I dont know if you actually understand the reasoning behind it.  Would seguin put up better numbers on a different team, under a different coach. Probably, Tavares plays for the Isles, they are awful he has to carry a load, and there is no one better to replace him.  Is this better for his long term development, maybe depends on the player, some thrive others will crumble.

    Seguin will not be on this team and by a -10 your right, because his overall success is not more valuable then that of the team.  With Tavares the isles success and his success are tied hand in hand.  Seguin will learn to play the game in a defense first system, it may cost him a few points but if he is as talented as he projects to be it should not hurt his development.  The bruins are not a team based on "me first" numbers, The players don't care about the stats as much as the teams success.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from nrguy. Show nrguy's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    Seguin is a natural center. Comparing Seguin to Kessel strictly on goals is a poor comparison. If you are going to compare the two, compare them on goals, assists, points, plus minus, defense and toughness. Then after a couple years of doing that, add the first round pick of Toronto's we get next year and the second rounder we got this year. When you have that large calculation, add to that the salary cap flexibility getting rid of Kessel and his $5 million and replacing it with $1-3 million.

    Then you can tout the amount of goals Kessel scores and how much better he makes his team (Toronto's finish last year gives a little indication). Kessel wasn't shut down by his lack of a true center in Toronto, he was shut down by his dimunitive size, lack of moves, inability to go into corners and fight bigger defensemen, and overall lack of heart.

    I thought the trade was a steal from the beginning and I have seen 0 evidence to support your argument that the B's got the short end of it.

    By your logic are you going to tell me that trading away Raycroft for Rask when Rask was a couple years away from the NHL was a bad move because it traded away the current for the future? Are you going to say the same about Neely for Petersen? Wideman and #15 for Horton?

    Get over your Bruins hate.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    Seguin is a natural center. Comparing Seguin to Kessel strictly on goals is a poor comparison. If you are going to compare the two, compare them on goals, assists, points, plus minus, defense and toughness. Then after a couple years of doing that, add the first round pick of Toronto's we get next year and the second rounder we got this year. When you have that large calculation, add to that the salary cap flexibility getting rid of Kessel and his $5 million and replacing it with $1-3 million. Then you can tout the amount of goals Kessel scores and how much better he makes his team (Toronto's finish last year gives a little indication). Kessel wasn't shut down by his lack of a true center in Toronto, he was shut down by his dimunitive size, lack of moves, inability to go into corners and fight bigger defensemen, and overall lack of heart. I thought the trade was a steal from the beginning and I have seen 0 evidence to support your argument that the B's got the short end of it. By your logic are you going to tell me that trading away Raycroft for Rask when Rask was a couple years away from the NHL was a bad move because it traded away the current for the future? Are you going to say the same about Neely for Petersen? Wideman and #15 for Horton? Get over your Bruins hate.
    Posted by nrguy

                Kessel missed  2 months and still would have been top scorer for the Bruins.Image what hed do if he was tougher.My guess his bulb is a little dim but he will learn.As with most slow learners.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL :             Kessel missed  2 months and still would have been top scorer for the Bruins.Image what hed do if he was tougher.My guess his bulb is a little dim but he will learn.As with most slow learners.
    Posted by hockey-101


    That is another ilrelivent comparison, bruins and leafs play differnt systems, bruins play defense first and generate offense off of the turn overs, controls or mistakes.

    The leafs play an offensive system, knowing they will be "trading chances" and rely on getting more chances and capitalizing on them to win..
    The leafs offense is also built around kessel since he is one of the only true talents they had last season.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    Can't believe I'm posting as I have been waiting for this thread to finally die, but let me ask this: 

    Is there really anyone out there that doesn't think the B's got a complete steal from the Leafs in the Kessel deal.  Sure time will tell, but this deal was Chia's greatest to date and all indications are that he robbed Burkie blind!  I bet the Leafs would love to trade Kessel back for Seguin straight up, right now.  And we have another 1st and 2nd pick coming our way next year!?  It's almost not fair when you look at the cap relief we got from dumping Kessel too.  Unbelievable trade for us.


    So, cry all you want about losing Kessel, a very limited and uninspiring player -- it is the trade that just keeps on giving for the Bruins.



     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    Again, hockey-101, you just throw shist at the wall without checking all of your facts.  Or any of your facts.  Kessel didn't miss "2 months."  He was out until Nov. 3rd to start the year, missing 12 games.  That's one month.

    You really need to let this go.  Every new post you add makes it worse and shows how little you've taken into account before voicing what now seems like a sort of religious belief in the holiness of Phil.  It's getting very sad and the irony of your screen name is like twisting a knife in the wound.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL

    In Response to Re: SEGUIN VS KESSEL:
    Can't believe I'm posting as I have been waiting for this thread to finally die, but let me ask this:  Is there really anyone out there that doesn't think the B's got a complete steal from the Leafs in the Kessel deal.  Sure time will tell, but this deal was Chia's greatest to date and all indications are that he robbed Burkie blind!  I bet the Leafs would love to trade Kessel back for Seguin straight up, right now.  And we have another 1st and 2nd pick coming our way next year!?  It's almost not fair when you look at the cap relief we got from dumping Kessel too.  Unbelievable trade for us. So, cry all you want about losing Kessel, a very limited and uninspiring player -- it is the trade that just keeps on giving for the Bruins.
    Posted by Fletcher1


    Excuse me, we had the 2nd round pick this year, not next.  Pencil in Jared Knight on our side of the deal as well...good grief...
     
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