TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : I don't think that proves it, I think this is what spurred most of the speculation.  But the fact remains any contracts will be reviewed by a staff, as well as lawyers.  An annoymous source in the front office could be the lady answering the phones with no real idea.  I don't think its ever been confirmed, which is what I stated.
    Posted by rolerhoky19


    I don't usually stick up for Kevin Paul Dupont but he's shown time and time again that he gets his information straight from the horses mouth and not some lackey. In this case, PC fed him this tidbit to feed to the fans. PC either wanted to try and pull a fast one over on people or he misread the CBA.
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    He's not an insurance policy at this point, there are plenty of examples of goalies who have failed in there 2nd or 3rd season. Like I said he was the reigning vezina and a 2 time all star, no GM would have let him walk away unless they were able to replace him with a proven commodity.. Do you really think that point is debatable?
    Posted by rolerhoky19


    Plenty of examples? Like who, Marty Brodeur? Hasek? Those guys are Hall of Famers. Thomas isn't. Goalies don't get better after 35, they get worse.
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : yeah, you mean the same theodore who carried a 4.5 million dollar cap hit this past season?? oh, who by the way, was signed to the capitals a year prior to the thomas extension? that guy we could have signed? you want a do over on that?
    Posted by rolerhoky19


    Yes, Theodore did have a 4.5m cap hit this past year. That wasn't my point. My point was that he doesn't have one anymore, therefore he has no effect on the teams ability to sign their current players because he's off the payroll, Thomas isn't and his $5m continues to affect moves the Bruins can and can't make.
     
    But you're right, I got the year wrong so I'll rescind Theodore but add these guys as free agents goalies that were available last off season that could have been used in a stop gap situation:

    Khabibulin (had actually won a playoff series when Thomas signed)
    Marty Biron (solid but unspectacular, has the pedigree to start or backup)
    Dwayne Roloson (like Marty Biron)
    Nittymaki (made it to the finals this year)
    Ty Conklin
    Brian Boucher (also made it to the finals this year)
    Craig Andersen (played well in Colorado this year)
    Scott Clemmensen (played extremely well in replace of Brodeur in 08-09 and played well in limited time for Florida)

    Any one of those guys would have and could have been a great backup/potential starter that to go along with Rask reminiscent of the Potvin/Raycroft duo before the lockout and none other than Khabibulin signed big or long term deals. Not good enough to win a cup but good enough to put in a solid season and continue moving forward.

    And you're right, teams don't usually let Vezina winners walk because in the past 20 seasons, it's gone to four goalies 70% of the time (all of which should be in the HOF someday soon). The last time a team more or less abandoned a Vezina winner was Jim Carey.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    Eddy, on the second one I think you pulled the wrong comment to reply to no? 
    I would say hasek is the epitome of a goalie who got a late start, much like thomas he was like 30 when he finally took over the full time starting role.
    But yes, hasek, roy, belfour, broduer, kolzig, osgood probably just surrendered his starting role for good this year,  is a short list of players who player into their upper 30's.
    I have seen a lot of speculation as to why the deal was signed before hand, not sure who it came fron. I have seen several mags/newspapers etc, that latched on to the deal being a plus 35 with no sources sited at all.. So thats why i question it with out having had it confirmed (not that i think it would ever be) but if one paper carried a line saying this was important because thomas is 34, and then several sources ran with that good luck chasing it back to an origin. 
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    And Eddy,
    I would argue thomas is a better option than any goalie on that list at the time of his signing. Like I said I am not a fan, for a long time me and a friends on going joke was the bruins picked him up at the big dig (he looks more like a construction worker then an nhl goalie).  But He has results, and his contract to me is very fair.

    The landscape has changed I dont think you will see any older goalies get a decent deal in the current CBA as it stands
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : Maybe for you. But for the guys who are involve, Thomas/Rask, it's gonna be a fierce battle. When you have two #1 ( ? ) golatenders who want to play, it create a situation where you will have two malcontents...
    Posted by TheUsualSofty


    I checked out on this topic a long time ago - leaving roler without backup.  This, though, was the only thing that brought me back.  Really?  Having to prove themselves and earn starts would make these two malcontents?  Then here's my cap solution - send both the babies home to mommy, put them on Long Time Infant Reserve, and bring in players who like competition.  You know, competing to win something when the opponent wants it just as bad?  That whole premise behind sport?  Competing?  Constantly proving yourself agaisnt the best of the best?  You know?  Heard of it?

    That just enrages me.  Anyone who proposes management decisions that minimize competition to salve players' egos should go watch soccer.  Yes, I extend that to people actually making management decisions.

    Now that that's out of my system - NAS has a point about the chicken and egg nature of the Bruins defense-first system.  Would anyone care to argue that Marty Brodeur is a bum and a product of the NJ system?  Would anyone care to argue that Antii Niemi is an all-world goaltender who makes his D corps look good?  Or Michael Leighton made Pronger look like a competent D?  Hockey's a team game - no player has success outside the system they play in, and the success they have is usually connected to playing the right role in the right system.  There are exceptions - those "generational players" or the guys like Bossy who have a singular gift.  Otherwise, the "system" really refers to the way the team gels and reads off of each other to ensure that everyone's responsibilities are covered.  Auld was a jalopy back there, and the D looked 50% more scrambled in front of him that with Thomas.  They also cleared more than a few pucks kicked into the slot or left sitting between Auld and the goal line.
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    4 years is hardly a long term deal by the way, And I would suggest the contract is really set up as a 3 year deal with thomas expected to be the starter transitioning to rask in the final 2 years..Posted by rolerhoky19


    And will be one of the reasons why teams will come knocking along with teams patchwork low cost penny on the dollar free agent goalie signings will fail.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from eddy75. Show eddy75's posts

    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    Eddy, on the second one I think you pulled the wrong comment to reply to no?  I would say hasek is the epitome of a goalie who got a late start, much like thomas he was like 30 when he finally took over the full time starting role. But yes, hasek, roy, belfour, broduer, kolzig, osgood probably just surrendered his starting role for good this year,  is a short list of players who player into their upper 30's. I have seen a lot of speculation as to why the deal was signed before hand, not sure who it came fron. I have seen several mags/newspapers etc, that latched on to the deal being a plus 35 with no sources sited at all.. So thats why i question it with out having had it confirmed (not that i think it would ever be) but if one paper carried a line saying this was important because thomas is 34, and then several sources ran with that good luck chasing it back to an origin. 
    Posted by rolerhoky19


    Osgoode is only just 37 and is playing a huge backup role. He was 35 the last time he had a really solid year. So I don't think it's fair to say he played well into his late 30s.

    Roy retired at 37 so he played past 35 but not well into his late 30s (ie. 39), probably not fair to list him either.

    Belfour did play till he was 40 but nagging injuries slowed him down. Hasek did play well into his late 30s but contrary to popular belief, he was a starter before turning 30 and had more than a cup of coffee by the time he was 26 playing backup to befour for 2 seasons. Arguably, his best years were before he turned 35. Brodeur still plays at a good level but at 38, he's no where near the guy he used to be.

    Apart from those guys, the examples of goalies playing into the late 30s at a high level is pretty sparse.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from The_Usual_softy. Show The_Usual_softy's posts

    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : I checked out on this topic a long time ago - leaving roler without backup.  This, though, was the only thing that brought me back.  Really?  Having to prove themselves and earn starts would make these two malcontents?  Then here's my cap solution - send both the babies home to mommy, put them on Long Time Infant Reserve, and bring in players who like competition.  You know, competing to win something when the opponent wants it just as bad?  That whole premise behind sport?  Competing?  Constantly proving yourself agaisnt the best of the best?  You know?  Heard of it? That just enrages me.  Anyone who proposes management decisions that minimize competition to salve players' egos should go watch soccer.  Yes, I extend that to people actually making management decisions. Now that that's out of my system - NAS has a point about the chicken and egg nature of the Bruins defense-first system.  Would anyone care to argue that Marty Brodeur is a bum and a product of the NJ system?  Would anyone care to argue that Antii Niemi is an all-world goaltender who makes his D corps look good?  Or Michael Leighton made Pronger look like a competent D?  Hockey's a team game - no player has success outside the system they play in, and the success they have is usually connected to playing the right role in the right system.  There are exceptions - those "generational players" or the guys like Bossy who have a singular gift.  Otherwise, the "system" really refers to the way the team gels and reads off of each other to ensure that everyone's responsibilities are covered.  Auld was a jalopy back there, and the D looked 50% more scrambled in front of him that with Thomas.  They also cleared more than a few pucks kicked into the slot or left sitting between Auld and the goal line.
    Posted by Bookboy007


    No one is suggesting to " minimise " the competition between players. But you're definitely dreaming in HD technicolor if you think that, at some point, either Thomas or Rask will be not frustrated by their lack of ice time. That's the way hockey players are: they want to play. That's why Thomas agreed to waive his clause. He want to be the #1 and right now, it's not happening in Boston UNLESS Rask fall all apart. Thomas didn't played, at all, in the playoffs despite the fact that he " was ready to go ". I think the message was loud and clear in that regard. Like or not, Rask is the defacto #1 when the seaon will start. There's no way the Bruins will harm Rask's development by sitting him on the bench so...

    Regarding the bold part....Well, that's not a very good point to bring in. You compare Auld to Thomas but... the situation we are in is : Rask vs Thomas. In that regard, it's a wash. The team overall defense and offense ( because the transition game is easier  ) are better when Rask is the net. Technically sound, calm and compose when things are goind fast around his net, very good control rebound... However, Thomas, in many occasions, overplay the puck; put himself out of position which force his defensman to act differently then they should in an " X " situation; bad rebound control... 

    I will end this post by saying that the system can help a player to " hide " his flaws. It's true for a lot of player and it's equally true about Thomas. In a year where the team overachieved, he won a Vezina. The very next year, the team was not very good and Thomas was not able to raise the level of his game. He failed to deliver in a way that the Bruins had to rely on a rookie to make the playoffs. Rask finished the year being the #1 in the sav% and GAA category. Thomas finished the year 15th/18th. That was the same team in front of both players... I must add that Thomas failure helped Rask to hit his bonuses which penalised us, this year, regarding our cap space... Thomas cost us way much more then his 5 per contract if you ask me.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : No one is suggesting to " minimise " the competition between players. But you're definitely dreaming in HD technicolor if you think that, at some point, either Thomas or Rask will be not frustrated by their lack of ice time. That's the way hockey players are: they want to play. That's why Thomas agreed to waive his clause. He want to be the #1 and right now, it's not happening in Boston UNLESS Rask fall all apart. Thomas didn't played, at all, in the playoffs despite the fact that he " was ready to go ". I think the message was loud and clear in that regard. Like or not, Rask is the defacto #1 when the seaon will start. There's no way the Bruins will harm Rask's development by sitting him on the bench so... Regarding the bold part....Well, that's not a very good point to bring in. You compare Auld to Thomas but... the situation we are in is : Rask vs Thomas. In that regard, it's a wash. The team overall defense and offense ( because the transition game is easier  ) are better when Rask is the net. Technically sound, calm and compose when things are goind fast around his net, very good control rebound... However, Thomas, in many occasions, overplay the puck; put himself out of position which force his defensman to act differently then they should in an " X " situation; bad rebound control...  I will end this post by saying that the system can help a player to " hide " his flaws. It's true for a lot of player and it's equally true about Thomas. In a year where the team overachieved, he won a Vezina. The very next year, the team was not very good and Thomas was not able to raise the level of his game. He failed to deliver in a way that the Bruins had to rely on a rookie to make the playoffs. Rask finished the year being the #1 in the sav% and GAA category. Thomas finished the year 15th/18th. That was the same team in front of both players... I must add that Thomas failure helped Rask to hit his bonuses which penalised us, this year, regarding our cap space... Thomas cost us way much more then his 5 per contract if you ask me.
    Posted by TheUsualSofty


    But even here your discounting thomas being injured at the end of the season, and disregarding the fact that they had nearly identical stats at the start of the season, rask did have a higher win/loss when he was 9-2, but at one point they were 2 and 4 in svs percentage and 1 and 3 in GAA.


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    Two further thoughts: the list eddy provided of available options is abysmal.  Yes, Anderson deserves massive credit for his season, yes Clemmenson has been good in relief, but no one with ambitions to build on a Conference championship an OTL in game 7 of the second round would look at that list and say, hey, let's take a chance on one of these guys!  We don't need a Vezina winner!  One of these turkeys and an untested Finnish beanpole should do it!  That's the kind of decision making that gets you called John Ferguson Jr.  And it sends the message that either a) you're too cheap to pay players who prove successful in your system, or b) you're willing to sacrifice a year while your rookie goalie develops because you don't think you're really a contender.  Nice.

    And roler's right re: deals for older goalies in the current climate.  Frankly, there's an idiot's trend going on right now - typical post hoc ergo propter hoc logic: Philly and Chicago made it to the Finals after building around marginal and unproven goaltending, therefore, they must have won because they only paid for marginal goaltending.  Stupid logic. Utterly unsound.  And GMs will be fired for it.  My guess is George McPhee will be the first, Doug Wilson the second.
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    Wilson has one season left and McPhee has two left to get it done. Boudreau has one left as a coach.
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : Plenty of examples? Like who, Marty Brodeur? Hasek? Those guys are Hall of Famers. Thomas isn't. Goalies don't get better after 35, they get worse.
    Posted by eddy75


    Jonny Bower, Ross Brooks, Glenn Hall, Gump Worsley. They still had stellar numbers after the age of 35 & Ross Brooks was a 38 yr old rookie.
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    Since 1990 here's a look at what Boston's goaltending has done in SP & GP's in the play-offs. Which is what really matters.
    Moog-.888 in 70 games
    Blue-.898 in 2 games
    Casey-.890 in 11 games
    Lacher-.904 in 5 games
    Ranford-.857 in 8 games (2 stints)
    Dafoe-.906 in 24 games
    Shields-.897 in 4 games
    Hackett-.934 in 3 games
    Raycroft-.924 in 7 games
    Thomas-.926 in 18 games
    Rask-.912 in 13 games 
    Thomas also holds the modern day record of a 2.16 GAA in the history of the B's
    play-offs.
    4 goalies on this list have blown 2 or 3 game series leads. Moog against Pitt in 91.
    Casey against Jersey in 94. Raycroft in 04 & Rask in 10
    Only one goalie in modern history has brought the B's back from being down 3-1 in games. Thomas has done this twice. 08 & 09. Now, we all are suppose to be Bruin fans on here. Why in the hell are we always fighting about TT vs Rask? After all these disappointments in all these years. Remember there's yrs out of this list where the B's didn't make it to the dance at all.
    What I don't get is why we can't be happy that we have a solid vetern who whether your a fan of him or not, has the numbers to prove consistency & gives us a chance to win. And we hopefully have the new comer who has shown brilliance, but also that he has to grow quite a bit too. The thing of all of this who really cares about the cap space? Isn't the important thing is to put a product on the ice that can win it all? Look, this team is a great hockey team. If it doesn't play like one; then we worry about tinkering, or making the adjustments we need to. Everyone needs to calm down & let this team play the game & see where it is. Getting rid of a TT at this stage is too premature. There's other avenues PC can do before getting rid one of the few most consistent players this team has had in quite some time. There's other players that have played under par that aren't earning thier money that should be moved before a TT. So what if TT is making $5mill sitting on the bench! At least we know if Rask goes down we still have someone that can still help the team win. Just because that $5mill could get us another player that MAY or MAY NOT help score enough goals. All the talent in the world doesn't guarentee anything. Look at the Rangers & the Wings when they tried to buy all the talent? Look at the Caps & Pens this year. We all witnessed first hand what great goaltending can do against these two teams. How may B's fans think the Scabs made the right choice of hanging on to Price over Halek? There's 2 yrs difference in age, so age wasn't a factor. Right now, for the B's; all indications are showing that the B's are fine in the goalie department for now. Let's just be happy with that at least until we can see what will actually happen.
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    Since 1990 here's a look at what Boston's goaltending has done in SP & GP's in the play-offs. Which is what really matters. Moog-.888 in 70 games Blue-.898 in 2 games Casey-.890 in 11 games Lacher-.904 in 5 games Ranford-.857 in 8 games (2 stints) Dafoe-.906 in 24 games Shields-.897 in 4 games Hackett-.934 in 3 games Raycroft-.924 in 7 games Thomas-.926 in 18 games Rask-.912 in 13 games  Thomas also holds the modern day record of a 2.16 GAA in the history of the B's play-offs. 4 goalies on this list have blown 2 or 3 game series leads. Moog against Pitt in 91. Casey against Jersey in 94. Raycroft in 04 & Rask in 10 Only one goalie in modern history has brought the B's back from being down 3-1 in games. Thomas has done this twice. 08 & 09. Now, we all are suppose to be Bruin fans on here. Why in the hell are we always fighting about TT vs Rask? After all these disappointments in all these years. Remember there's yrs out of this list where the B's didn't make it to the dance at all. What I don't get is why we can't be happy that we have a solid vetern who whether your a fan of him or not, has the numbers to prove consistency & gives us a chance to win. And we hopefully have the new comer who has shown brilliance, but also that he has to grow quite a bit too. The thing of all of this who really cares about the cap space? Isn't the important thing is to put a product on the ice that can win it all? Look, this team is a great hockey team. If it doesn't play like one; then we worry about tinkering, or making the adjustments we need to. Everyone needs to calm down & let this team play the game & see where it is. Getting rid of a TT at this stage is too premature. There's other avenues PC can do before getting rid one of the few most consistent players this team has had in quite some time. There's other players that have played under par that aren't earning thier money that should be moved before a TT. So what if TT is making $5mill sitting on the bench! At least we know if Rask goes down we still have someone that can still help the team win. Just because that $5mill could get us another player that MAY or MAY NOT help score enough goals. All the talent in the world doesn't guarentee anything. Look at the Rangers & the Wings when they tried to buy all the talent? Look at the Caps & Pens this year. We all witnessed first hand what great goaltending can do against these two teams. How may B's fans think the Scabs made the right choice of hanging on to Price over Halek? There's 2 yrs difference in age, so age wasn't a factor. Right now, for the B's; all indications are showing that the B's are fine in the goalie department for now. Let's just be happy with that at least until we can see what will actually happen.
    Posted by Neelybestallaround


    Great fact finding Neely
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : Jonny Bower, Ross Brooks, Glenn Hall, Gump Worsley. They still had stellar numbers after the age of 35 & Ross Brooks was a 38 yr old rookie.
    Posted by nitemare-38


    So in 100+ years history of the NHL, there are less than a dozen goalies who play well into their late 30s. I think that more or less proves the point that goalies don't get better. 
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    Since 1990 here's a look at what Boston's goaltending has done in SP & GP's in the play-offs. Which is what really matters. Moog-.888 in 70 games Blue-.898 in 2 games Casey-.890 in 11 games Lacher-.904 in 5 games Ranford-.857 in 8 games (2 stints) Dafoe-.906 in 24 games Shields-.897 in 4 games Hackett-.934 in 3 games Raycroft-.924 in 7 games Thomas-.926 in 18 games Rask-.912 in 13 games  Thomas also holds the modern day record of a 2.16 GAA in the history of the B's play-offs. 4 goalies on this list have blown 2 or 3 game series leads. Moog against Pitt in 91. Casey against Jersey in 94. Raycroft in 04 & Rask in 10 Only one goalie in modern history has brought the B's back from being down 3-1 in games. Thomas has done this twice. 08 & 09. Now, we all are suppose to be Bruin fans on here. Why in the hell are we always fighting about TT vs Rask? After all these disappointments in all these years. Remember there's yrs out of this list where the B's didn't make it to the dance at all. What I don't get is why we can't be happy that we have a solid vetern who whether your a fan of him or not, has the numbers to prove consistency & gives us a chance to win. And we hopefully have the new comer who has shown brilliance, but also that he has to grow quite a bit too. The thing of all of this who really cares about the cap space? Isn't the important thing is to put a product on the ice that can win it all? Look, this team is a great hockey team. If it doesn't play like one; then we worry about tinkering, or making the adjustments we need to. Everyone needs to calm down & let this team play the game & see where it is. Getting rid of a TT at this stage is too premature. There's other avenues PC can do before getting rid one of the few most consistent players this team has had in quite some time. There's other players that have played under par that aren't earning thier money that should be moved before a TT. So what if TT is making $5mill sitting on the bench! At least we know if Rask goes down we still have someone that can still help the team win. Just because that $5mill could get us another player that MAY or MAY NOT help score enough goals. All the talent in the world doesn't guarentee anything. Look at the Rangers & the Wings when they tried to buy all the talent? Look at the Caps & Pens this year. We all witnessed first hand what great goaltending can do against these two teams. How may B's fans think the Scabs made the right choice of hanging on to Price over Halek? There's 2 yrs difference in age, so age wasn't a factor. Right now, for the B's; all indications are showing that the B's are fine in the goalie department for now. Let's just be happy with that at least until we can see what will actually happen.
    Posted by Neelybestallaround


    You just can't compare save %'s across different NHL seasons in different eras and say they're in any way related. Rules have changed, equipment has changed and the game has changed. The proper way to evaluate how Thomas would be compared to someone like Moog would be to see where they ranked relative to the rest of the league over their tenures with the Bruins. 
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    Two further thoughts: the list eddy provided of available options is abysmal.  Yes, Anderson deserves massive credit for his season, yes Clemmenson has been good in relief, but no one with ambitions to build on a Conference championship an OTL in game 7 of the second round would look at that list and say, hey, let's take a chance on one of these guys!  We don't need a Vezina winner!  One of these turkeys and an untested Finnish beanpole should do it!  That's the kind of decision making that gets you called John Ferguson Jr.  And it sends the message that either a) you're too cheap to pay players who prove successful in your system, or b) you're willing to sacrifice a year while your rookie goalie develops because you don't think you're really a contender.  Nice. And roler's right re: deals for older goalies in the current climate.  Frankly, there's an idiot's trend going on right now - typical post hoc ergo propter hoc logic: Philly and Chicago made it to the Finals after building around marginal and unproven goaltending, therefore, they must have won because they only paid for marginal goaltending.  Stupid logic. Utterly unsound.  And GMs will be fired for it.  My guess is George McPhee will be the first, Doug Wilson the second.
    Posted by Bookboy007

    But Boston didn't make the conference finals. They got beaten by a much lesser team in the 2nd round on a goal that was Thomas' fault and Philly made the cup finals with backup goalies so I think that pretty much destroys that case that the goalie always makes the team.

    I full believe, although I'll never be proven right, that if Thomas were playing in any other system other than a defensive minded one like Juilen's that he'd be a middle of the road goalie struggling to stay in the NHL. He beat out 3 injured goalies to get his starter position and the minute Boston had another decent goalie in the pipeline, he blew Thomas out of the water. I hope as much as anyone that Thomas can at least regain some of the form he used to have so the team can trade him for something. 
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : You just can't compare save %'s across different NHL seasons in different eras and say they're in any way related. Rules have changed, equipment has changed and the game has changed. The proper way to evaluate how Thomas would be compared to someone like Moog would be to see where they ranked relative to the rest of the league over their tenures with the Bruins. 
    Posted by eddy75


    I beg to differ sir! SP is the way to decide what's considered good goaltending. When you're in the 0.900 percentile your considered to be doing the job. You're stopping the ones you should & 2-4 that are great. Every defense breaks down no matter what. Also, a goalie makes mistakes just as well as a defenseman, or forward does. You blame TT on Walkers goal, I blame Rask on JVR's goal. So they cancel out. You still can't take away any of TT's stats, or the history he's made as a Boston Bruin, no matter how much you hate, no matter how much you B^tch & whine, you can't change FACTS!  You also have to remember EDDY!! That the era's & equipment maybe different, but the shots are also coming much harder & faster then EVER! I play goal & someone who can hardly skate, can fire the puck 80mph with these new sticks! So I think TT is doing fine job where he is & THE STATS ARE FACTS!!!
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Neelybestallaround. Show Neelybestallaround's posts

    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : So in 100+ years history of the NHL, there are less than a dozen goalies who play well into their late 30s. I think that more or less proves the point that goalies don't get better. 
    Posted by eddy75


    Well Eddy I still believe that nitemare made his point. You were proven wrong. You said. "Goalie's don't get better at the age of 35 they get worse!" Well as anything else there are exceptions! How do you know that TT can't get better? If you know this for 100%? You can't be too bright, because if I had your clairvoyant talent. I wouldn't be spending my time in a hockey forum.
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : Well Eddy I still believe that nitemare made his point. You were proven wrong. You said. "Goalie's don't get better at the age of 35 they get worse!" Well as anything else there are exceptions! How do you know that TT can't get better? If you know this for 100%? You can't be too bright, because if I had your clairvoyant talent. I wouldn't be spending my time in a hockey forum.
    Posted by Neelybestallaround


    I don't think anyone speculated thomas would get better as he got older. Simply that he is a good goalie present time.  The bruins were not paying him thinking he would get better, it was based on outstanding stats in teh 2 previous seasons, that was what he would easily have gotten on the open market.

    Also. the comparing stats through generations is true.. You really can't 20 years ago a .900 svs percentage was great, now a .900 will have your team shopping for other options.

    But there are also other marks, less trackable more important stats.  The bruins play last year seemed to me that they did a good job of keeping shots to the outside, (low percentage chances) but at the same time hen teams were able to break the system down, it lead to quality scoring chances.  There were games where thomas or rask may have stopped 20-24 and played brilliantly, and games were they may have stopped 28-30 and played poorly..
    So depending on how they are playing you may see svs% in huge spikes game to game, not reflective of the play of the goalie at all..

    teams that play a risk reward style, may not give up a ton of shots, but more then half of those shots may be high quality chances resulting in lower svs% regardless of who the goalie is.

    All things aside, the fact is thomas is the most solid (and tenured goalie) the bruins have had in a long time.. the cap is tight and he is taking a lot of criticism that is not deserved.  the cap has changed the way we as fans view players.

    To say thomas who is one year removed from a vezina, and signed a relatively cap friendly deal at the time, could have been replaced by an untested rookie and a journey man back up is unrealistic, and looking on the contract and calling it an "albatross" is even more unrealistic, the cap is tight because this is a good team, and players deserving of decent contracts,  show me a good team with a bunch of cap room and well talk..
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Neelybestallaround. Show Neelybestallaround's posts

    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : I don't think anyone speculated thomas would get better as he got older. Simply that he is a good goalie present time.  The bruins were not paying him thinking he would get better, it was based on outstanding stats in teh 2 previous seasons, that was what he would easily have gotten on the open market. Also. the comparing stats through generations is true.. You really can't 20 years ago a .900 svs percentage was great, now a .900 will have your team shopping for other options. But there are also other marks, less trackable more important stats.  The bruins play last year seemed to me that they did a good job of keeping shots to the outside, (low percentage chances) but at the same time hen teams were able to break the system down, it lead to quality scoring chances.  There were games where thomas or rask may have stopped 20-24 and played brilliantly, and games were they may have stopped 28-30 and played poorly.. So depending on how they are playing you may see svs% in huge spikes game to game, not reflective of the play of the goalie at all.. teams that play a risk reward style, may not give up a ton of shots, but more then half of those shots may be high quality chances resulting in lower svs% regardless of who the goalie is. All things aside, the fact is thomas is the most solid (and tenured goalie) the bruins have had in a long time.. the cap is tight and he is taking a lot of criticism that is not deserved.  the cap has changed the way we as fans view players. To say thomas who is one year removed from a vezina, and signed a relatively cap friendly deal at the time, could have been replaced by an untested rookie and a journey man back up is unrealistic, and looking on the contract and calling it an "albatross" is even more unrealistic, the cap is tight because this is a good team, and players deserving of decent contracts,  show me a good team with a bunch of cap room and well talk..
    Posted by rolerhoky19

    Sorry, but the .900 mark is still what the measurement is whether a goalie is doing his job or not. Nick Backstrom of Minn for instance. The team didn't make the play-offs & Backstrom certainly has better yrs, but the Wild aren't hitting the panic button & getting rid of their goalies matter of fact Harding was below .900 & they still re-signed him. Jonathan Quick is another. Dan Ellis & Antero Niittymaki both got new contracts with new teams & their SP was in the .900 range. So, yes I remember Andy Moog having a SP of .885 one year & it was considered a great SP. However, regardless of the era the SP is still the main measuring stick that is used. Reason being is that it's the only stat that actually tells whether the goalie is giving you a chance to win. GAA is team generated, as with wins. Even Shut-outs aren't always a story teller. The SP is the one that GM's go by because it tells that the goalie is making the saves he should & the odd big save. Yes, every goalie on the planet allows weak goals, but how many weak goals does he allow compare to ones that he absolutely causes the other team to look up & say. "How in the hell did that stay out!" Some teams give up far more quality chances then others. I honestly think that Tomas Vokoun is probably the most valuable goalie to his team in the league right now for that very reason. This guy is the new CUJO' the more work, the better he plays!
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : I beg to differ sir! SP is the way to decide what's considered good goaltending. When you're in the 0.900 percentile your considered to be doing the job. You're stopping the ones you should & 2-4 that are great. Every defense breaks down no matter what. Also, a goalie makes mistakes just as well as a defenseman, or forward does. You blame TT on Walkers goal, I blame Rask on JVR's goal. So they cancel out. You still can't take away any of TT's stats, or the history he's made as a Boston Bruin, no matter how much you hate, no matter how much you B^tch & whine, you can't change FACTS!  You also have to remember EDDY!! That the era's & equipment maybe different, but the shots are also coming much harder & faster then EVER! I play goal & someone who can hardly skate, can fire the puck 80mph with these new sticks! So I think TT is doing fine job where he is & THE STATS ARE FACTS!!!
    Posted by Neelybestallaround


    Let me be clear, I'm not commenting on the TT debate, just the thought that numbers can be compared though the years. 

    You cannot compare save percentages from era to era.  It's not even close.  I looked a three season from about 20 years ago looking at goalies playing over 20 games and how many goalies had a save percentage over .900:

    88/89 - 2
    89/90 - 5
    90/91 - 5

    The highest of those years was Roy with a .912.

    Looking at the past 3 seasons:

    09/10 - 42
    08/09 - 40
    07/08 - 37

    In those seasons Roy's .912 would put him at best 18th in 07/08.

    Clearly the numbers support Eddy's point.  A .900 save percentage use to be the exception and now it's the minimum.  Shots may be coming harder then ever, but a harder shot hitting a wall, still hits the wall.  Comparing Roy's equipment from his first Stanley Cup to what he was wearing winning his last is a joke.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from eddy75. Show eddy75's posts

    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : Well Eddy I still believe that nitemare made his point. You were proven wrong. You said. "Goalie's don't get better at the age of 35 they get worse!" Well as anything else there are exceptions! How do you know that TT can't get better? If you know this for 100%? You can't be too bright, because if I had your clairvoyant talent. I wouldn't be spending my time in a hockey forum.
    Posted by Neelybestallaround

    Hey genius - if you'd actually read what I wrote, you'd see that I said there were exceptions but as a general rule in 100+ years of the NHL goalies do not get better after 35. Nobody can know anything with 100% certainty until after it happens. Thomas may get better, he may not but considering it's a statistical anomaly for goalies to improve past 35, I wouldn't be on it. Thomas' past season seems to exemplify the point. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from eddy75. Show eddy75's posts

    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : I beg to differ sir! SP is the way to decide what's considered good goaltending. When you're in the 0.900 percentile your considered to be doing the job. You're stopping the ones you should & 2-4 that are great. Every defense breaks down no matter what. Also, a goalie makes mistakes just as well as a defenseman, or forward does. You blame TT on Walkers goal, I blame Rask on JVR's goal. So they cancel out. You still can't take away any of TT's stats, or the history he's made as a Boston Bruin, no matter how much you hate, no matter how much you B^tch & whine, you can't change FACTS!  You also have to remember EDDY!! That the era's & equipment maybe different, but the shots are also coming much harder & faster then EVER! I play goal & someone who can hardly skate, can fire the puck 80mph with these new sticks! So I think TT is doing fine job where he is & THE STATS ARE FACTS!!!
    Posted by Neelybestallaround

    You may beg to differ but you're wrong. I'm not going to get into a big discussion about statistical corrections other than to say reading the back of a hockey card from 1980 and one from 2010 does not give you the same information. The size of a goalie's equipment has changed dramatically. 30-40 years ago, they wore less than some defensemen wear now. 30 years ago, you had maybe 1 or 2 teams playing a defensive trap style game, now you have maybe 1 or 2 that don't. 

    Simply put, save % changes over eras. Go ahead and look at the Vezina winners through the 80s, I dare you. Their save % and GAA wouldn't even put them in the top 10 and probably not even in the top 20 yet some of these guys (Roy, Fuhr) are amongst the best that ever played the position. Don't believe me? Go watch some of the games instead of quoting your hockey card stats. 

    So if you want to compare Thomas to Bruins goalies of the past - do it right. Compare how Thomas tenure (not just his Vezina season) with the Bruins compares to goalies of this era. Now go back and do the same for the other guys quoted. Hockeydb.com is a good place to get all the necessary stats. If after that, Thomas comes out to be better than any former Bruins goalie, I'll admit I'm wrong.  

    Lastly, on the shots getting harder front, what you say simply isn't true. While the average joe can shoot harder with composite sticks, nothing in what's known of NHL history suggests players are shooting harder today than they were in previous eras. Nobody even officially recorded how hard shots were until about 20 years ago so you can't say that shots are harder now than ever before if they were never recorded. It's a decent assumption to make because players are bigger but it's by no means definitive. Absence of data does not mean shots weren't hard. When they actually started officially measuring and recording shot speed in the all-stars skills competition, guys like McInnins and Iafrate who were known for years to have shots that you just didn't get in front of, each clocked in shots in excess of a 100+ MPH slapshot, which is still faster than almost anyone today (Iafrate's official record of hardest shot actually held up for 16 years and only 2 other players have ever had an officially recorded harder shot). But if you want to get the hardest shot ever, you have to really take a time trip back to the 60s. Time Magazine reported in 1968 that Bobby Hull unloaded a slapshot of 118.3 MPH (recognized as the hardest ever although not officially recorded), which is a Mustang compared to Big Z's pony ride of 105.4 MPH. Bobby Hull's wrist shots were routinely reported as topping 100 MPH, something nobody can do today. So there really isn't much data to support the notion that NHL players shoot harder now and that this somehow makes it harder on the goalies. 

    Do yourself a favor and learn some hockey history instead of just spouting off about the backside of a hockey card. 
     
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