TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    The game and the player's performances are always changing.  The only way to judge a player is to put his stats up against players who place at the same time.
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    The game and the player's performances are always changing.  The only way to judge a player is to put his stats up against players who place at the same time.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    No argument here.  That's about it in a nutshell.
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : You may beg to differ but you're wrong. I'm not going to get into a big discussion about statistical corrections other than to say reading the back of a hockey card from 1980 and one from 2010 does not give you the same information. The size of a goalie's equipment has changed dramatically. 30-40 years ago, they wore less than some defensemen wear now. 30 years ago, you had maybe 1 or 2 teams playing a defensive trap style game, now you have maybe 1 or 2 that don't.  Simply put, save % changes over eras. Go ahead and look at the Vezina winners through the 80s, I dare you. Their save % and GAA wouldn't even put them in the top 10 and probably not even in the top 20 yet some of these guys (Roy, Fuhr) are amongst the best that ever played the position. Don't believe me? Go watch some of the games instead of quoting your hockey card stats.  So if you want to compare Thomas to Bruins goalies of the past - do it right. Compare how Thomas tenure (not just his Vezina season) with the Bruins compares to goalies of this era. Now go back and do the same for the other guys quoted. Hockeydb.com is a good place to get all the necessary stats. If after that, Thomas comes out to be better than any former Bruins goalie, I'll admit I'm wrong.   Lastly, on the shots getting harder front, what you say simply isn't true. While the average joe can shoot harder with composite sticks, nothing in what's known of NHL history suggests players are shooting harder today than they were in previous eras. Nobody even officially recorded how hard shots were until about 20 years ago so you can't say that shots are harder now than ever before if they were never recorded. It's a decent assumption to make because players are bigger but it's by no means definitive. Absence of data does not mean shots weren't hard. When they actually started officially measuring and recording shot speed in the all-stars skills competition, guys like McInnins and Iafrate who were known for years to have shots that you just didn't get in front of, each clocked in shots in excess of a 100+ MPH slapshot, which is still faster than almost anyone today (Iafrate's official record of hardest shot actually held up for 16 years and only 2 other players have ever had an officially recorded harder shot). But if you want to get the hardest shot ever, you have to really take a time trip back to the 60s. Time Magazine reported in 1968 that Bobby Hull unloaded a slapshot of 118.3 MPH (recognized as the hardest ever although not officially recorded), which is a Mustang compared to Big Z's pony ride of 105.4 MPH. Bobby Hull's wrist shots were routinely reported as topping 100 MPH, something nobody can do today. So there really isn't much data to support the notion that NHL players shoot harder now and that this somehow makes it harder on the goalies.  Do yourself a favor and learn some hockey history instead of just spouting off about the backside of a hockey card. 
    Posted by eddy75

    The average shot from today is ahellva lot harder & faster doorknob! As you mention with the goalie's 35 rule. Bobby Hull, Micky or Dickie Redmond & Dickie Moore were exceptions!
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    The game and the player's performances are always changing.  The only way to judge a player is to put his stats up against players who place at the same time.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    Well you disappointed me NOS. You of all people I figured would know exactly what I was saying. My whole point is TT's stats rank in top with goalies in his era & are far superior to most B's goalie's in the past! Also in the 08 & 09 play-offs TT's stats in the 08 play-offs? He had on average the most shots/per game with 32. SP of .914 in 7 games. His shot total/per game for goalie's in that yr is #1. In 09 TT's faced an average of 29 shots per game which is tied for 2nd with MA Fleury. Hillier was #1 with an average of 41. TT SP was .933 2nd to only Hillier's .943. So, my point is made the Stats are the facts & TT's #'s are there with the elite whether it's reg or most important.. PLAY-OFFS! No other B's goalie since 1990 or later, have had these stats in the top 5 that played more or the same amount of games as Tim Thomas! The defense rest your honor!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Neelybestallaround. Show Neelybestallaround's posts

    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : You may beg to differ but you're wrong. I'm not going to get into a big discussion about statistical corrections other than to say reading the back of a hockey card from 1980 and one from 2010 does not give you the same information. The size of a goalie's equipment has changed dramatically. 30-40 years ago, they wore less than some defensemen wear now. 30 years ago, you had maybe 1 or 2 teams playing a defensive trap style game, now you have maybe 1 or 2 that don't.  Simply put, save % changes over eras. Go ahead and look at the Vezina winners through the 80s, I dare you. Their save % and GAA wouldn't even put them in the top 10 and probably not even in the top 20 yet some of these guys (Roy, Fuhr) are amongst the best that ever played the position. Don't believe me? Go watch some of the games instead of quoting your hockey card stats.  So if you want to compare Thomas to Bruins goalies of the past - do it right. Compare how Thomas tenure (not just his Vezina season) with the Bruins compares to goalies of this era. Now go back and do the same for the other guys quoted. Hockeydb.com is a good place to get all the necessary stats. If after that, Thomas comes out to be better than any former Bruins goalie, I'll admit I'm wrong.   Lastly, on the shots getting harder front, what you say simply isn't true. While the average joe can shoot harder with composite sticks, nothing in what's known of NHL history suggests players are shooting harder today than they were in previous eras. Nobody even officially recorded how hard shots were until about 20 years ago so you can't say that shots are harder now than ever before if they were never recorded. It's a decent assumption to make because players are bigger but it's by no means definitive. Absence of data does not mean shots weren't hard. When they actually started officially measuring and recording shot speed in the all-stars skills competition, guys like McInnins and Iafrate who were known for years to have shots that you just didn't get in front of, each clocked in shots in excess of a 100+ MPH slapshot, which is still faster than almost anyone today (Iafrate's official record of hardest shot actually held up for 16 years and only 2 other players have ever had an officially recorded harder shot). But if you want to get the hardest shot ever, you have to really take a time trip back to the 60s. Time Magazine reported in 1968 that Bobby Hull unloaded a slapshot of 118.3 MPH (recognized as the hardest ever although not officially recorded), which is a Mustang compared to Big Z's pony ride of 105.4 MPH. Bobby Hull's wrist shots were routinely reported as topping 100 MPH, something nobody can do today. So there really isn't much data to support the notion that NHL players shoot harder now and that this somehow makes it harder on the goalies.  Do yourself a favor and learn some hockey history instead of just spouting off about the backside of a hockey card. 
    Posted by eddy75


    DONE SIR..sorry sir is definately not warranted! Read the stats I sent to NOS below! These are not from a hockey card! STATS ARE FACTS!!! HEH,HEH,HEH!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : Well you disappointed me NOS. You of all people I figured would know exactly what I was saying. My whole point is TT's stats rank in top with goalies in his era & are far superior to most B's goalie's in the past! Also in the 08 & 09 play-offs TT's stats in the 08 play-offs? He had on average the most shots/per game with 32. SP of .914 in 7 games. His shot total/per game for goalie's in that yr is #1. In 09 TT's faced an average of 29 shots per game which is tied for 2nd with MA Fleury. Hillier was #1 with an average of 41. TT SP was .933 2nd to only Hillier's .943. So, my point is made the Stats are the facts & TT's #'s are there with the elite whether it's reg or most important.. PLAY-OFFS! No other B's goalie since 1990 or later, have had these stats in the top 5 that played more or the same amount of games as Tim Thomas! The defense rest your honor!
    Posted by Neelybestallaround


    Stats are useful to support arguments, not to make them.  There is an impressive amount of variables that go into evaluating a player's talent.

    Do you stats tell the quality of shot?  Were those clear crease blasts from the point or were they shots with traffic, rebounds and tips?  Who were the defensemen on the ice at the time?  Were they powerplay shots?  Even strenght?  From the side boards or top of the crease?  Your stats don't show the goaltender's ability during a two on one or on the breakaway.  Your stats give a general view, but not nearly enough to make an argument.  Using only stats, these answers are unknown.  The only legit way to evaluate a player is to watch him play.
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : You may beg to differ but you're wrong. I'm not going to get into a big discussion about statistical corrections other than to say reading the back of a hockey card from 1980 and one from 2010 does not give you the same information. The size of a goalie's equipment has changed dramatically. 30-40 years ago, they wore less than some defensemen wear now. 30 years ago, you had maybe 1 or 2 teams playing a defensive trap style game, now you have maybe 1 or 2 that don't.  Simply put, save % changes over eras. Go ahead and look at the Vezina winners through the 80s, I dare you. Their save % and GAA wouldn't even put them in the top 10 and probably not even in the top 20 yet some of these guys (Roy, Fuhr) are amongst the best that ever played the position. Don't believe me? Go watch some of the games instead of quoting your hockey card stats.  So if you want to compare Thomas to Bruins goalies of the past - do it right. Compare how Thomas tenure (not just his Vezina season) with the Bruins compares to goalies of this era. Now go back and do the same for the other guys quoted. Hockeydb.com is a good place to get all the necessary stats. If after that, Thomas comes out to be better than any former Bruins goalie, I'll admit I'm wrong.   Lastly, on the shots getting harder front, what you say simply isn't true. While the average joe can shoot harder with composite sticks, nothing in what's known of NHL history suggests players are shooting harder today than they were in previous eras. Nobody even officially recorded how hard shots were until about 20 years ago so you can't say that shots are harder now than ever before if they were never recorded. It's a decent assumption to make because players are bigger but it's by no means definitive. Absence of data does not mean shots weren't hard. When they actually started officially measuring and recording shot speed in the all-stars skills competition, guys like McInnins and Iafrate who were known for years to have shots that you just didn't get in front of, each clocked in shots in excess of a 100+ MPH slapshot, which is still faster than almost anyone today (Iafrate's official record of hardest shot actually held up for 16 years and only 2 other players have ever had an officially recorded harder shot). But if you want to get the hardest shot ever, you have to really take a time trip back to the 60s. Time Magazine reported in 1968 that Bobby Hull unloaded a slapshot of 118.3 MPH (recognized as the hardest ever although not officially recorded), which is a Mustang compared to Big Z's pony ride of 105.4 MPH. Bobby Hull's wrist shots were routinely reported as topping 100 MPH, something nobody can do today. So there really isn't much data to support the notion that NHL players shoot harder now and that this somehow makes it harder on the goalies.  Do yourself a favor and learn some hockey history instead of just spouting off about the backside of a hockey card. 
    Posted by eddy75


    This is, sir, an excellent post. You're dead on when you say that Thomas wouldn't be the same goaltender under another system. Julien's system is goaltender friendly. You only have to look at Fernandez and Auld stats to see that an average goaltender can look great in that system. I'm laughing my a** off when some posters always talked about Thomas's Vezina in a year where 99% of our players overachieved. That's same year that Ryder scored 27 goals and Wheeler about 30. Wideman was playing like a real #2 D-man, Krecji looking like a real #2 centerman and Chara winning the Norris... Everything who could have go right, that year, did go right... This year, when things were not going well, Thomas wasn't able to step up. In fact, his inhability to step up allowed Rask to reach his bonuses... Thomas cost more then his 5 per salary...
     
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    Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data

    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data:
    In Response to Re: TT- The Vezina, The Contract, The Data : Sorry, but the .900 mark is still what the measurement is whether a goalie is doing his job or not. Nick Backstrom of Minn for instance. The team didn't make the play-offs & Backstrom certainly has better yrs, but the Wild aren't hitting the panic button & getting rid of their goalies matter of fact Harding was below .900 & they still re-signed him. Jonathan Quick is another. Dan Ellis & Antero Niittymaki both got new contracts with new teams & their SP was in the .900 range. So, yes I remember Andy Moog having a SP of .885 one year & it was considered a great SP. However, regardless of the era the SP is still the main measuring stick that is used. Reason being is that it's the only stat that actually tells whether the goalie is giving you a chance to win. GAA is team generated, as with wins. Even Shut-outs aren't always a story teller. The SP is the one that GM's go by because it tells that the goalie is making the saves he should & the odd big save. Yes, every goalie on the planet allows weak goals, but how many weak goals does he allow compare to ones that he absolutely causes the other team to look up & say. "How in the hell did that stay out!" Some teams give up far more quality chances then others. I honestly think that Tomas Vokoun is probably the most valuable goalie to his team in the league right now for that very reason. This guy is the new CUJO' the more work, the better he plays!
    Posted by Neelybestallaround


    I totally agree with you about vokoun, the guy is great but like cujo has yet to win anything hes only been to the play offs? 2? times..

    The other guys you mention though, aside from quick who has a huge upside, none of those guys are considered "great".. Harding is so good he got a 1 year deal to continue as a backup.... Ellis and Nittymaki are both guys who will be questioned as starters through out their remaining careers..

    Quick is back not do to save % but do to the overall results as a team, and really who else on the market is going to provide anything better at a better value?
    The west coast style of play is more wide open, you tend to face more quality scoring chances, also keep in mind even with Quick in net the kings have yet to move bernier who is still the higher rater prospect.
     
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