Your Top Defenseman??

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    Your Top Defenseman??

    Talked with co-workers on this topic and thought it would be interesting to see everyone's answers. The Defenseman must still be in the NHL and playing obviously. Here's my list:

    1.) Mike Green (Caps)
    He led all blueliners in goals (50), points (149) and power play goals (28) in the last two seasons. Green was a +39 this season and +24 last season. Averages 25:00 in ice time. Enough Said.

    2.) Dan Boyle (Sharks)
    Boyle is about as complete and consistent as a scoring defenseman as you can possibly get. He scores goals, he leads the powerplay, and he plays an incredibly strong game offensively and defensively. He's had 115 points in the last 2 seasons.

    3.) Nicklas Lidstrorm (Wings)
    People say he had a slow year this year. If those numbers are a slow year for Nick Lidstrom… then there really is no slowing him down. He’s a consistent finalist for the Norris Trophy. Though age is finally starting to show through every so slightly, this guy is never a doubt to pick up and is great on both ends of the ice, as shown by his +22 rating this year and +31 last.

    4.) Duncan Keith (Hawks)
    The award for the best defenseman in the NHL was handed out to Stanley Cup winning defenseman Duncan Keith. Keith was second in the league in points among defensemen behind Green. He is one of the best shut-down d-men in the league as well as displaying great offensive ability. He can create plays and join the rush, and still defends against the opposing teams best players.

    5.) Zdeno Chara (Bruins)
    Chara dominates the game with his size, strength and skills and he's been good for a long time. He was the runner-up for the Norris in 2004 and took the Norris trophy in the 08-09 season. He became the third Bruin to capture the Norris Trophy, joining Hall of Famers Ray Bourque and Bobby Orr. Some say Chara is the best all around Defenseman in today's game. He is probably the best shut-down d-men in the league.

    6.) Drew Doughty (Kings)
    Drew Doughty had a break-out sophomore year, sitting third in points 16/43/59 among defensman, and becoming the go-to d-men on a surprising Kings team that made the playoffs for the first time in six years.

    7.) Chris Pronger (Flyers)
    If the Flyers had rallied to win the Stanley Cup, one of their players would have won the Conn Smythe as playoff MVP, that would have been Pronger. Leading scorer among defensemen in the postseason (18 points). Pronger is the foundation for the second-best defensive team in the 2010 playoffs and a veteran leader who's been lauded by peers, media and even his harshest critics. To be honest, this guy is probably the 2nd most dominant defenseman in the entire game today behind Chara.

    8.) Shea Weber (Preds)
    His 23 goals were tied for second among D-men last year and compiled 53 points and had 43 points this season. He hits like a freight train, has a booming shot and can play lock-down defense.

    9.) Brent Seabrook (Hawks)
    The 6-3 220-pound defenseman has paired with Duncan Keith to form one of the best blueline tandems in the NHL and at the Olympics. Averaging over 23 minutes of icetime, Seabrook is sixth in the league in hits and ninth in the NHL at plus-20.
    "He makes the game easier for me and everyone else on the team," said Keith. "We've gotten to know where the other is on the ice at all times. He's become such a smart, strong defenseman. In my view, he's one of the best all-around players in the game."

    10.) Tyler Myers (Sabres)
    Myers (Calder Trophy winner) was one of four rookies to play all 82 games. He led the Sabres and all rookies by logging nearly 24 minutes of ice time per game. He was also first among rookies with 137 blocked shots, and third with 48 points.
    Myers not only won an NHL roster spot as a 19-year-old, he posted statistics befitting an established veteran. The 6'8", 222-lb. defenseman led the Sabres in ice time per game (23:44), three minutes more than blueline partner Tallinder  who ranked second.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    Listing Mike Green as the top defenseman in the NHL has completely removed any credibility you might have wanted.

    The guy is awful as a defenseman.

    D-men's #1 job is to keep the puck out of the net.

    Green's points don't keep pucks out of his own net.


    Super-incredible-fabulous-magnificent fail.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from rolerhoky19. Show rolerhoky19's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    NAS,
    come on its an opinion, Obviously offensive D men (purely offensive dmen) have shown little value in the play offs.. but its still an opinion..

    If I was going for a guy right now to build a team around I would go with Doughty, and Eric johnson and meyers would be on the short list..
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    NAS, come on its an opinion, Obviously offensive D men (purely offensive dmen) have shown little value in the play offs.. but its still an opinion.. If I was going for a guy right now to build a team around I would go with Doughty, and Eric johnson and meyers would be on the short list..
    Posted by rolerhoky19


    It is opinion.  It's as valid as listing Shawn Thornton as the #1 winger in the game.


     
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    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    +63
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jas86. Show Jas86's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    Listing Mike Green as the top defenseman in the NHL has completely removed any credibility you might have wanted. The guy is awful as a defenseman. D-men's #1 job is to keep the puck out of the net. Green's points don't keep pucks out of his own net. Super-incredible-fabulous-magnificent fail.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot



    I didn't say only Defensive D-Men, Green has been nominated for the Norris Trophy this season and last and his numbers don't lie. He's no Chara but he's not awful, far from it. He's probably the best Offensive D-man in the league and he's still young at 24.
     
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    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    0/2054!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from bandgbleeder. Show bandgbleeder's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    Absolutely. Mike Green is Denis Wideman with the ability to skate and a more accurate shot. 

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    Listing Mike Green as the top defenseman in the NHL has completely removed any credibility you might have wanted. The guy is awful as a defenseman. D-men's #1 job is to keep the puck out of the net. Green's points don't keep pucks out of his own net. Super-incredible-fabulous-magnificent fail.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman?? : I didn't say only Defensive D-Men, Green has been nominated for the Norris Trophy this season and last and his numbers don't lie. He's no Chara but he's not awful, far from it. He's probably the best Offensive D-man in the league and he's still young at 24.
    Posted by Jas86


    The only trophy that means anything is the Stanley Cup.  The rest have become a joke.  When Green starts playing defense, I'll start giving him some credit for being a good defeseman.  Right now, he's terrible.

    An offensive defeseman who doesn't play defense is...a forward.  He just lines up in a different place on the ice.
     
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    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    0/2054!
    Posted by SanDogBrewin


    thats awesome.. I thought i knew what it meant and double checked to confim it...
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from bandgbleeder. Show bandgbleeder's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    I dont think its quite possible to number them realistically, but here's a couple groupings:

    Elite:
    Chara, Keith, Pronger*
    Near Elite:
    Weber, Doughty, Lidstrom**, Boumeester***, 
    Extremely good:
    Seabrook, Suter***, Streit***

    * I don't think Pronger as an individual has the same impact as Keith or Chara, but he can definitely affect his team hugely.
    ** Two years ago Lidstrom would have been in the top group, he's just slowed down a bit and is no longer in the top tier.
    *** I think all three of these guys would show better with more useful teams around them. 

    Neither Mike Green nor Tyler Myers belong in the conversation at all. Myers may one day be in the conversation, but i doubt Green will. 



    In Response to Your Top Defenseman??:
    Talked with co-workers on this topic and thought it would be interesting to see everyone's answers. The Defenseman must still be in the NHL and playing obviously. Here's my list: 1.) Mike Green (Caps) He led all blueliners in goals (50), points (149) and power play goals (28) in the last two seasons. Green was a +39 this season and +24 last season. Averages 25:00 in ice time. Enough Said. 2.) Dan Boyle (Sharks) Boyle is about as complete and consistent as a scoring defenseman as you can possibly get. He scores goals, he leads the powerplay, and he plays an incredibly strong game offensively and defensively. He's had 115 points in the last 2 seasons. 3.) Nicklas Lidstrorm (Wings) People say he had a slow year this year. If those numbers are a slow year for Nick Lidstrom… then there really is no slowing him down. He’s a consistent finalist for the Norris Trophy. Though age is finally starting to show through every so slightly, this guy is never a doubt to pick up and is great on both ends of the ice, as shown by his +22 rating this year and +31 last. 4.) Duncan Keith (Hawks) The award for the best defenseman in the NHL was handed out to Stanley Cup winning defenseman Duncan Keith. Keith was second in the league in points among defensemen behind Green. He is one of the best shut-down d-men in the league as well as displaying great offensive ability. He can create plays and join the rush, and still defends against the opposing teams best players. 5.) Zdeno Chara (Bruins) Chara dominates the game with his size, strength and skills and he's been good for a long time. He was the runner-up for the Norris in 2004 and took the Norris trophy in the 08-09 season. He became the third Bruin to capture the Norris Trophy, joining Hall of Famers Ray Bourque and Bobby Orr. Some say Chara is the best all around Defenseman in today's game. He is probably the best shut-down d-men in the league. 6.) Drew Doughty (Kings) Drew Doughty had a break-out sophomore year, sitting third in points 16/43/59 among defensman, and becoming the go-to d-men on a surprising Kings team that made the playoffs for the first time in six years. 7.) Chris Pronger (Flyers) If the Flyers had rallied to win the Stanley Cup, one of their players would have won the Conn Smythe as playoff MVP, that would have been Pronger. Leading scorer among defensemen in the postseason (18 points). Pronger is the foundation for the second-best defensive team in the 2010 playoffs and a veteran leader who's been lauded by peers, media and even his harshest critics. To be honest, this guy is probably the 2nd most dominant defenseman in the entire game today behind Chara. 8.) Shea Weber (Preds) His 23 goals were tied for second among D-men last year and compiled 53 points and had 43 points this season. He hits like a freight train, has a booming shot and can play lock-down defense. 9.) Brent Seabrook (Hawks) The 6-3 220-pound defenseman has paired with Duncan Keith to form one of the best blueline tandems in the NHL and at the Olympics. Averaging over 23 minutes of icetime, Seabrook is sixth in the league in hits and ninth in the NHL at plus-20. "He makes the game easier for me and everyone else on the team," said Keith. "We've gotten to know where the other is on the ice at all times. He's become such a smart, strong defenseman. In my view, he's one of the best all-around players in the game." 10.) Tyler Myers (Sabres) Myers (Calder Trophy winner) was one of four rookies to play all 82 games. He led the Sabres and all rookies by logging nearly 24 minutes of ice time per game. He was also first among rookies with 137 blocked shots, and third with 48 points. Myers not only won an NHL roster spot as a 19-year-old, he posted statistics befitting an established veteran. The 6'8", 222-lb. defenseman led the Sabres in ice time per game (23:44), three minutes more than blueline partner Tallinder  who ranked second.
    Posted by Jas86

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Canbostondoit. Show Canbostondoit's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    (1)Bobby Orr(2) Bobby Orr (3) Bobby Orr (4)Bobby Orr (5) Bobby Orr
    (6) Ray Bourque (7) Ray Bourque (8) Ray Bourque (9) Ray Bourque (10) Ray Bourque
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    (1)Bobby Orr(2) Bobby Orr (3) Bobby Orr (4)Bobby Orr (5) Bobby Orr (6) Ray Bourque (7) Ray Bourque (8) Ray Bourque (9) Ray Bourque (10) Ray Bourque
    Posted by Canbostondoit


    Players who, today, are more sound defensively than Mike Green?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman?? : Players who, today, are more sound defensively than Mike Green?
    Posted by Not-A-Shot

    I know you aren't big on stats, but here's one you might enjoy:
    http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_5_on_5.php?sort=21&section=goals&mingp=50&mintoi=15&team=ALL&pos=D
    Amongst D who played at least 50 games and 15 minutes a game, guess who gave up slightly fewer goals-against-per-60 minutes-of-ice-time than Green?
    Matt Hunwick.
    (On a side note, Keith was much worse than either.  In fact, he was a quarter-goal per game's worth of ice time worse than Wideman.)
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from bandgbleeder. Show bandgbleeder's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    Quality of competition. Green is not put out against top forwards in his own zone. 

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman?? : I know you aren't big on stats, but here's one you might enjoy: http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_5_on_5.php?sort=21&section=goals&mingp=50&mintoi=15&team=ALL&pos=D Amongst D who played at least 50 games and 15 minutes a game, guess who gave up slightly fewer goals-against-per-60 minutes-of-ice-time than Green? Matt Hunwick. (On a side note, Keith was much worse than either.  In fact, he was a quarter-goal per game's worth of ice time worse than Wideman .)
    Posted by DrCC

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman?? : I know you aren't big on stats, but here's one you might enjoy: http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_5_on_5.php?sort=21&section=goals&mingp=50&mintoi=15&team=ALL&pos=D Amongst D who played at least 50 games and 15 minutes a game, guess who gave up slightly fewer goals-against-per-60 minutes-of-ice-time than Green? Matt Hunwick. (On a side note, Keith was much worse than either.  In fact, he was a quarter-goal per game's worth of ice time worse than Wideman .)
    Posted by DrCC


    Too many factors are involved with playing defense that don't show up on a stat sheet, even crazy saber-metric ones like that.
     
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    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman?? : Too many factors are involved with playing defense that don't show up on a stat sheet, even crazy saber-metric ones like that.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot

    That stat isn't so bad, it's more of a raw number than most new baseball stats.  I think it provides a good starting point for looking at players at least - if your eyes tell you one thing and the stat something else, you need to think about what else is effecting the stat.  Quality of competition is likely a big part, as b&gbleeder commented.  Conference, division, how often Washington played with the lead, or was on the power-play, all factor in. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from CHARAWINSTHENORRIS. Show CHARAWINSTHENORRIS's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    Jas86 - sorry, but I tend to agree with Not-A-Shot...Green is terrible defensively. No way he deserves to be #1, no matter what his offensive numbers are. And that gets your post off to a very bad start. But, that aside, I think you otherwise have the right names up there. Just slide Green down 8 or 9 notches and you'll be fine.
     
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    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    Yah 68 Goals in the last three years and +51 +/- you're right NAS I wouldn't want Green on the Bruins either. Ha ha let's see you're spin now "He's a product of the Washington system" Keep em coming love the comedy!
     
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    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman?? : Too many factors are involved with playing defense that don't show up on a stat sheet, even crazy saber-metric ones like that.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    Love this kind of thinking!  What irrelevant variables does this stat take into account (decreasing the stat's validity) and what relevant variables is this stat not taking into account (also decreasing the stat's validity).

    Regarding the latter, the D-man who is partnered with the D-man being analyzed, the coaches particular style, strength of schedule, whether said D-man is lined up against line 1 or not...

    All of these things are relevant to assessing a D-man (if you are going to do it from a stats angle) and are not taken into account.

    Now, where you and I may differ....Is you take this information and call it flaw in saber-metrics.  I disagree with this, I take this information and say, okay, now how can we take this already oober complicated stat, and make it exponentially more complicated , to take these variables into account.

    The formula for the stat would probably wind up being 10 pages long, so who knows if it will ever be developed.  Until it is developed, you are correct that saber-metrics are flawed.  But its not the use of saber-metrics, which is flawed, tis moreso the individual stats (they are still too simplistic).....

    Anything can be quantified. 

    Disclaimer: I am a quantitative analyst and am by no means neutral in this debate.
     
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    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman?? : thats awesome.. I thought i knew what it meant and double checked to confim it...Posted by rolerhoky19


    ...Yah the Bruins couldn't use a Defenseman whom has averaged 70 assists per the past 2 seasons my bad...
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jas86. Show Jas86's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    Jas86 - sorry, but I tend to agree with Not-A-Shot...Green is terrible defensively. No way he deserves to be #1, no matter what his offensive numbers are. And that gets your post off to a very bad start. But, that aside, I think you otherwise have the right names up there. Just slide Green down 8 or 9 notches and you'll be fine.
    Posted by CHARAWINSTHENORRIS


    I have no problem with that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Like I said Mike Green isn't a Zdeno Chara, Pronger, etc. Green's true value is his Offensive skills and obviously not everyone is gonna agree that he's a #1 top D-Man. My roommate is a huge caps fan and I have watched many of their games for the past few seasons and he isn't terrible defensively just Offense is he's strong suit compared to shutting other players down. Again he's clearly nomimated for the Norris trophy for something.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BlazeTrailer. Show BlazeTrailer's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    I have to agree with NAS. It is a travesty to the trophy that Green was nominated for a Norris. Just put the guy at wing and get it over with, because that is where he seems to want to be. Also, make sure it is on the line that isn't expected to be defensively responsible, because I'm guessing he can't backcheck any better than he can mind his own zone.

    I've always wondered and am too lazy to look it up, did he play forward as a prospect? How the h*ll did he make it to this level as a d-man playing that level of quality on d?

    For the record, I think the list wasn't bad except for Green. Whether this is for one season or to build my team around would affect my preferred top pairing.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    In Response to Re: Your Top Defenseman??:
    Yah 68 Goals in the last three years and +51 +/- you're right NAS I wouldn't want Green on the Bruins either. Ha ha let's see you're spin now "He's a product of the Washington system" Keep em coming love the comedy!
    Posted by SanDogBrewin


    With a top defenseman like Mike Green, it's no wonder that the Caps have done so well in the playoffs.  No spin needed.

    If Green is such a great defenseman, why would he spend so little time on the PK?  Poti, Steckel, Schultz and Morissonn all averaged more time on the PK than Green.

    An absolute crazy stat that I just noticed:  Green averaged 5:03/game on the powerplay.  The next full season regular defenseman was Tom Poti at 1:03/game.

    Wow.  More stunningly bad info.  Missed shots:  #2 defenseman on the Caps was Tom Poti with 19.  Green?  103.  Not a typo.  One hundred and three.

    His +/- doesn't impress me when three forwards on the team combine for 123 goals.

    No, I would not want this guy as the Bruins #1 defenseman.  Would you?
     
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    Re: Your Top Defenseman??

    I wouldnt mind seeing Green play with Chara. Savy back to Green, Green to Chara, Chara launches a rocket SCORES!! It will never happen.

    Green isnt the greatest at playing defence, but playing with a true # 1 shut down man in Chara he could be lethal.
     
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