1000 for Bergeron?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    1000 for Bergeron?

    NEHJ bit asks if Bergeron will be the best player to be a Bruins lifer - a list that excludes Shore, Orr, Bourque, Esposito, Neely, etc. but does include Cashman, Milt, Bucyk, Clapper....

    Made me wonder if Bergeron will end up a) a 1000 point player and b) a Hall of Famer. 

    He's under contract for 9 more years.  He has 433 points.  He's a 60point/year player for the last three years on average (correcting for the lockout).  That's 540 points if he stays at that average over the 9 years, so he'd be ending that contract at age 37 with 973 points.  Conceivable that he would be able to come back another year or two and get the 27 points to reach 1000, but it's also possible a few years with a maturing Marchand and Eriksson push his average up so that he gets there before the end of his recently-signed deal.  I think it's 50/50 - I could see him slowing down by 35 and even retiring before 900 points.

    That would raise the question of whether he's HoF material.  I would suggest he's got another Selke in him, and possibly a Conn., which would mean his second Cup.  Two Cups, two Selke's, a Clancy and 1000 points would be a pretty solid resume.  But not a lot of players have made it without 1000 points in recent memory.  Neely did, Bure did, Gillies did, but all three were unusual cases - Neely due to incredible  dominance before his injuries, Bure for his sheer explosiveness, Gillies the 4 cup pedigree.  Larionov for his international achievements.  And there are still a host of players who will cross the 1000 point threshold waiting to get in.  Jagr, for one.  Thornton will come up before Bergeron.  Alfredsson.  Iginla.

    So two questions: do you think Bergeron gets 1000 points by the time he retires and, if not, do you think he still makes the Hall?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    To me a Bruins lifer would have to be someone who plays their whole NHL career for the Bruins. Neely,Bourque,Esposito and yes, even Orr, sad as it is, are not Bruins lifers in my eyes.




     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    To me a Bruins lifer would have to be someone who plays their whole NHL career for the Bruins. Neely,Bourque,Esposito and yes, even Orr, sad as it is, are not Bruins lifers in my eyes.



    Which is why Book said the list "excludes" them.

    Come on, Kel.  You aren't old enough to be senile.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    Bergeron is a special case.  There really aren't many (if any) players like him today or in the past.  It think if he continues to play at this level until he is 33 or so, he'll get in the HOF.

    As for the points, it'll depend on if they really reduce that retaarded goalie gear.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    To me a Bruins lifer would have to be someone who plays their whole NHL career for the Bruins. Neely,Bourque,Esposito and yes, even Orr, sad as it is, are not Bruins lifers in my eyes.

     



    Which is why Book said the list "excludes" them.

     

    Come on, Kel.  You aren't old enough to be senile.

    [/QUOTE]


    I could have waited or worded it better. Basically, I agree with NEHJ that they arent lifers but I think alot of fans feel differently. I've heard people say stuff like "no matter what Bourque will  always be a Bruin" and while I am a big fan of his I always would argue no, he played over a season there, won  a cup there and they even retired his number (some people dont know that, and I think it's kind of lame they did it)...Orr is even a better example in this category. Too me, people seem to conveniently forget the Chicago thing, but I honelty think it is because they loved watching him play so much and it was bad enough his career was shortended, they would rather not remember it..

    I wish I was old enough to be senile. At least there would be an excuse for my ever increasing stupidity.

    As for the thread, thats a tough one Book. 1000 points? Thats going to be tough, but like all of us Bruins fans know better than anyone, the back of his hockey cards dont do him justice at all.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from biggskye. Show biggskye's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?


       My guess is 1000 points will be tough, simply because he logs so much ice time in defensive situations.

    I really like his chances for the HOF. Gainey got in with 502 points, and was only a winger.

    Also, you didn't even mention his International accomplishments...

    GOLD MEDALS in World Championships, World Junior Championships (becoming only player to win World Jr. AFTER winning World Sr.), and of course Olympic Gold.

    You can even throw in the Spengler Cup, where he was MVP. He was also MVP at the World Juniors, over some guy named Crosby.

    That is already a great resume, with another 8 years to add to the totals.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mxt. Show mxt's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?


    He plays the game like a HOF'er, but 1000 points in today's NHL will be tough. If he stays healthy, maybe.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    I don't think Bergeron makes the Hall.  Perpetually underrated, he just won't have the numbers or hardware to make it.  Only 1 Selke for him?

    He should end up with his number in the rafters, which is just as cool to me. 

    Book- you mentioned Bucyk for B's lifers.  Don't think he makes the cut as he played his 1st couple of seasons with the Wings.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    Not getting a 1000 points. When he's done, Patrice will be as highly regarded as Shore, Orr, Bourque, Esposito, Neely, Cashman, Milt, Bucyk or Clapper or yadda, yadda, yadda (power forward at the turn of 20th century)





     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to SanDogBrewin's comment:

    Not getting a 1000 points. When he's done, Patrice will be as highly regarded as Shore, Orr, Bourque, Esposito, Neely, Cashman, Milt, Bucyk or Clapper or yadda, yadda, yadda (power forward at the turn of 20th century)



    Two guys that keep getting missed:

    O'Reilly and...Milbury.

    High quality B's lifers!

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:

    Book- you mentioned Bucyk for B's lifers.  Don't think he makes the cut as he played his 1st couple of seasons with the Wings.

     




    You're right, Crowls.  I had to double check on Bucyk, because I couldn't remember where he'd started but I thought he'd started somewhere else...when I came back, I must of typed him in to the wrong list.  Whoops!  Well, it was after midnight....

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:


    Two guys that keep getting missed:

     

    O'Reilly and...Milbury.

    High quality B's lifers!



    NEHJ had O'Reilly but, for no reason anyone can fathom, didn't include Milbury....

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    Bergeron will be a HOF if he maintains the type of play until his mid thirties.  The work Book did above is indicative of his potential to be one of the best of the Bruins.  As singletary note, I have been to two HOFs in Toronto and Cooperstown.  Wonderful shrines yet, the single most determining factor for determining greatness is how the others on the team play around the player of question.  Bergeron is one of those players. 

     A scientific theory should be as simple as possible, but no simpler. -- Albert Einstein

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    biggskye sort of answers Crowls's point about the hardware - he has some very impressive hardware to go with his Stanley Cup, and is one of that select group with a Cup, WJHC Gold, Olympic Gold and World Gold.  It is the Hockey Hall, not the NHL hall.  I don't know if that gets past the "perpetually under-rated" part, though.  I think if he gets his 1000, he's a shoe-in.  If he doesn't, you're putting it in the hands of people who perpetually debate the Paul Henderson question - guy had under 500 NHL points in over 700 games, plus another 283 in the WHA, but he has a lobby that thinks he should be in the Hall basically for playing out of his mind in the Summit Series.

     

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    Book- thinking about your "algorithm" for Bergeron, a relatively close comparison might be Rod Brind'Amour?

    1184 career points

    2 Selke Awards

    1 Stanley Cup

    I think Bergeron is a better player than Brind'Amour, but not sure he will match those numbers.  It will be interesting to see if RB gets in, think he was eligible this year.

     

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    If Bergeron plays a bigger role on the upcoming Olympic team, wins another cup or two and another Selke or two, he has a great shot at the HHOF.  He'll in large part be defined like a late-career Steve Y, a player defined by leadership and team success.

    As far as 1000 points go, he'll need to stay healthy and step it up over the next 5 years.  He's shown before he can be a 70+ point 30+ goal guy.  With Marchand and Eriksson in their prime, he could put up numbers like that over the next few years.  If he doesn't, it'll be tough to hit 1000 unless he plays a long time.  And 1000 points by the time your 40+ isn't a big deal anyway.  So Bergeron needs to step it up a little bit in the scoring department.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    Bingo, Crowls.  Should be interesting.  I still can't really believe that Brind'Amour nearly hit the 1200 point mark.

     

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Not getting a 1000 points. When he's done, Patrice will be as highly regarded as Shore, Orr, Bourque, Esposito, Neely, Cashman, Milt, Bucyk or Clapper or yadda, yadda, yadda (power forward at the turn of 20th century)


    Two guys that keep getting missed:

    O'Reilly and...Milbury.

    High quality B's lifers! [/QUOTE]


    Bad Dawg!

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?


    Bergeron mania runnin wild. C'mon people - he's really, really, really good. He's all-time defensively, has got tremendous instincts, competes all out every shift, character and heart in spades....but to be fair is not great offensively. He will get his number hanging in the rafters, and deservedly so. That ain't too shabby.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    It would be tough to put him ahead of Milt on the best lifers list because of all he contributed after his playing career. I also don't think Bergeron would need 1,000 to hit the hall (which is good as I don't think he'll hit it). Bergeron is a different type of player - if he racks up a couple of more Selke's and maybe another Cup, that could be enough. 
    But it's not a certainty, as two-way players are always overlooked when it comes to that kind of recognition. For example, Carbonneau has three Selkes, three Cups and was the Captain for one of them. But as a more Defensive minded player he never racked up ridiculous points, and I've never once heard his name in HHOF consideration.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    Bergeron is a tough case.  I think we'll be very lucky if he is able to hold up without some significant injuries for full seasons year after year.  You've got the concussion history and you also have brutal condition that he completed this season in.  If you expect more long playoff runs, you might expect a similar list of wear and tear every season which is bound to catch up with him.

    That said, you can't really underestimate this guy.  I think 1000 points will be a stretch, but for anyone who watches the Bruins his value is some obvious and so consistent.  I think the HOF will be tough simply because other people around the league probably don't watch him as closely as we do, and aren't aware of everything he does to help a team win.  And, as red said, Selke winners aren't exactly queing up for the HOF.  I do think we will see his number raised to the rafters in Boston though.

    I think Bergeron is destined to be "our" guy more than anything else.  The Bruins organization and fans will celebrate this guy more than the rest of the league, and that's okay with me.  We know.  

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    I think another factor that people are forgetting is that Bergeron also has a very good chance of having the most O.T game winners for the Bruins. I think he gets in the HOF if he gets in the 800 range and continues his all around play and dominates in the circle. He's the empitmy of what a HOF is on and off the ice.

    "Why is a puck called a puck? Because Dirty little bastar d was taken!"- Marty Brodeur

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    i was thinking about this Bergeron HOF talk last night. I want to see what his resume looks like when he hangs them up. He could have a couple of Cups,Olympic gold medals and Selke awards when he is done. had the B's won it this year, one could have made a case for him for Conne Smythe, but I think Rask would have grabbed it unless Game 7 was a 8-7 win.

    Lets not forget, the people who vote for the HOF arent the same who vote for the Norris Trophy etc..Numbers arent the be all end all with them. Neely is in and Ciccarrelli isnt. So you never know.




     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    Two way players who don't score enough are overlooked - that's my 1000 point theory.  The Selke is a funny award to go by, though, because it has yo-yoed between great two way player and great defensive player.  The man who won the first four is in the Hall - still the most Selkes of any player - and Gainey only had 501 points in his long career.  Carbonneau, on the other hand, just didn't score enough.  He only hit .5 points/game over his career.  Between the two, guys like Kasper, Ramsay, Meagher, Poulin, and Dirk Graham fell between the .4 and .75 point/game marks, and Ramsay is the closest to 1000 with over 650 points.  None of those guys will be in the Hall.

    It took a long time for the voters to re-visit the example they set with Bobby Clarke, and I remember the hue and cry over that decision mostly from Shab fans who said Gainey was robbed.  After Carbonneau's last win, it was Gilmour (HOF), Fedorov (future HOF), Francis (HOF), then Peca won two (non-HOF - under 500 career points), along with Lehtonen (3), Madden and Draper.  In there, Yzerman won his - HOF, Brind'Amour - see Crowls's suggestion above - and Datsyuk (sure HOF and potential 1000 point man with 753 and a new contract in hand).

    Bergeron won't make the Hall on Selkes alone unless he wins four and the Bruins win four more Cups.

     

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    Madden's relationship with the Selke always drove me nuts and it put the nail into the coffin the idea of the Selke being for the best defensive forward. If that truly was the case, Madden would have a half dozen Selkes instead of just one. Possibly the best purely defensive forward I've ever seen.

    And I agree with book that the comparables would be Gainey and Carbonneau - one is in, one isn't, so who knows where Bergy will end up on that spectrum. And I think if you were so inclined, you could make a very good argument that Carbonneau should be in.

     

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