1000 for Bergeron?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    Kel, the thing with Neely and Gillies, who also has underwhelming career numbers compared to some, is that they were absolutely dominant physical players during their primes.  Neely is still one of only three players to score 50 in under 50 games played, and the other guys are named Gretzky and Lemieux.  Gillies created so much space for Trottier and Bossy.  If you could have trained a silverback gorilla to skate....  I don't think those examples fit Bergeron, and they're the only recent inductees with sub-1000 points as forwards, I think.  Since 1980, there have been only a handful of non-veteran's commitee appointments for forwards with fewer than 1000 points (I won't include Keon who missed by fewer than 20 points and would have had them if he hadn't detoured to the WHA.)  You'll notice a pattern when you see who they are:

    Cournoyer, Lemaire, Bill Barber, Bob Gainey, Steve Shutt, Gillies and Neely.  That's four guys who were core players for a lot of Shab Cups, a guy who was a key offensive player for the Flyers' only Cups, a first-liner for a 4 Cup dynasty, and Neely, who, frankly, is CAM F'ING NEELY, so no more justification is required.  So - more Cups or 1000 points seems to be the suggestion here.

    JW - I don't know that it's accurate to say he's "not that good" offensively.  He's not a point/game player, but he was pretty close pre-concussion (biggest loss was his shot, which used to be harder and more accurate) and he's been better than a point/game guy for long stretches over the last couple of seasons.  He gets hot for a month or more.  Since the concussion, his scoring has steadily climbed toward his pre-concussion numbers.  I won't be surprised if he has a career year this year - the first time he's ever had a line where he isn't paired with either an EL player who is learning the ropes, or a 35+ guy whose legs are hit and miss, or both (I count Boyes as EL).  And having Eriksson on his wing frees him up to be more aggressive offensively.  You have to wonder what he might be able to do if a different system.

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?


    I really like Bergeron, kind of like the way I really like Seidenberg.  I like the way they conduct themselves, and the honesty and totality of their effort. 

    I think strictly from hockey perspective, he's under rated by the industry, and over rated by us.  Playing with the severity of his injuries last month just puts the legend on steroids.

    He's really good, but I don't think he'll sniff 1000, and he'll really have to do more than he's done to date to get the hall call.  That's gonna be tough.

    If he's a lifer, the rafter thing is a given.

    Gainey as a comparable is interesting.  To me, he was the games first "defensive star", meaning he was highly praised, got tons of recognicion for his specialty.  Every hockey fan of the day, knew plenty about his defensive expertise.  On a team of superstars, he got tons of credit, not just in Montreal, but everywhere.  Bergeron isn't so lucky.  His offensive/defensive balance is what's so great about him. 

    I think the key to Bergerons induction could very well be stuff like next years Olympics.  If he can shine in this type of forum, he'll start to be looked at everywhere, like he's perceived in Boston.   If he doesn't get much icetime...is a peripherall player in the Olympics(when he should be in his prime) it's a reasonable possibility he won't get much consideration.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from red75. Show red75's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    Steve, you should take a look at the comments on the TSN article about Bergeron's new contract. He alreadys has the respect and recognition of the fans of the rest of the league. Half the posts are from Leafs and Habs fans praising Bergeron.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to red75's comment:

    Steve, you should take a look at the comments on the TSN article about Bergeron's new contract. He alreadys has the respect and recognition of the fans of the rest of the league. Half the posts are from Leafs and Habs fans praising Bergeron.



    Bergeron is a player who is rarely spoken of in a negative manner by other fan bases. I think he's as well respected as any player in the game. He just plays the right way. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:



    Bergeron is a player who is rarely spoken of in a negative manner by other fan bases. I think he's as well respected as any player in the game. He just plays the right way. 



    And he kicked the crap out of Gorges that night...

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to red75's comment:

    Steve, you should take a look at the comments on the TSN article about Bergeron's new contract. He alreadys has the respect and recognition of the fans of the rest of the league. Half the posts are from Leafs and Habs fans praising Bergeron.



    Agree totally Red.  He's certainly well respected.  Not inferring otherwise.  I don't think he's as well known though, as Gainey was in the 70's for his defensive prowess, and he's not perceived as a monster offensively either.  When the conversation is "hall of fame", if a player doesn't score a ton of points, I feel he must dominate an area of the game for multiple seasons to get consideration.  Several more Selke's, he's a shoe in.  Outside that, I don't like his chances.
    That's no knock on Bergeron.  Just participating.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to stevegm's comment:



    Agree totally Red.  He's certainly well respected.  Not inferring otherwise.  I don't think he's as well known though, as Gainey was in the 70's for his defensive prowess, and he's not perceived as a monster offensively either.  When the conversation is "hall of fame", if a player doesn't score a ton of points, I feel he must dominate an area of the game for multiple seasons to get consideration.  Several more Selke's, he's a shoe in.  Outside that, I don't like his chances.
    That's no knock on Bergeron.  Just participating.



    Not well known by which group?  The guys who vote on HOF members will certainly be well aware of the play of the Cup champ/Canadian Gold Medal winning perrenial Selke finalist.

    If some toenail biter on Long Island doesn't think he's great, why would that matter?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from huntbri. Show huntbri's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    1000 points will be tough but if he plays at the level he has through to 35 or so he should receive serious consideration for the Hall even if he ends up around the 900 point mark.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to kelvana33's comment:

    To me a Bruins lifer would have to be someone who plays their whole NHL career for the Bruins. Neely,Bourque,Esposito and yes, even Orr, sad as it is, are not Bruins lifers in my eyes.






    26 games. That is what Orr played for the hawks. C'mon, he's a lifer. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Stuke50. Show Stuke50's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    Bergeron is a special case.  There really aren't many (if any) players like him today or in the past.  It think if he continues to play at this level until he is 33 or so, he'll get in the HOF.

    As for the points, it'll depend on if they really reduce that retaarded goalie gear.




    If Bergeron stays in Boston for the rest of his hockey life, he will get into HHoF for just that alone.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Agree totally Red.  He's certainly well respected.  Not inferring otherwise.  I don't think he's as well known though, as Gainey was in the 70's for his defensive prowess, and he's not perceived as a monster offensively either.  When the conversation is "hall of fame", if a player doesn't score a ton of points, I feel he must dominate an area of the game for multiple seasons to get consideration.  Several more Selke's, he's a shoe in.  Outside that, I don't like his chances.
    That's no knock on Bergeron.  Just participating.

     

     



    Not well known by which group?  The guys who vote on HOF members will certainly be well aware of the play of the Cup champ/Canadian Gold Medal winning perrenial Selke finalist.

     

    If some toenail biter on Long Island doesn't think he's great, why would that matter?

    [/QUOTE]

    Pickin fly shiite out of pepper again huh?  The guys who vote on HOF members are well aware of anyone of any significance to ever play in the NHL, not just those likely to get in.  I said his defensive game isn't as well known/popular/well documented/defined/considered....whatever term one wishes to use...as Gainey's.  How many other "Selke" type players got elected in the past 30 years?     And his offensive pacing doesn't suggest that part of his game is good enough to get in in.   

    It's certainly possible he gets in, but I feel he's going to need to step up his game.  Most players I can think of in the hall, had a part/parts of their game, widely considered outstanding over the course of a career.  That's what a HOF is all about.  Currently, Bergeron has 1 Selke, and a Clancy.  He's the kind of player that could also win a Messier, Foundation, and a Plus-minus Award.  If he continues to play like he has, and wins any combination of the above awards 3 more times..I think he's a lock. 2 maybe.  My opinion....1 more trophy won't do it.  And I don't think multiple cups will matter either, unless 1 of them is on his back.  My overall opinion is pretty much in agreement with the OP.  To get in, he has to win multiple awards going forward, or score 1000ish.

    Lots to disagree with there, if you wish nas...hardly heresy though.  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to stevegm's comment:


    Pickin fly shiite out of pepper again huh?  The guys who vote on HOF members are well aware of anyone of any significance to ever play in the NHL, not just those likely to get in.  I said his defensive game isn't as well known/popular/well documented/defined/considered....whatever term one wishes to use...as Gainey's.  How many other "Selke" type players got elected in the past 30 years?     And his offensive pacing doesn't suggest that part of his game is good enough to get in in.   

    It's certainly possible he gets in, but I feel he's going to need to step up his game.  Most players I can think of in the hall, had a part/parts of their game, widely considered outstanding over the course of a career.  That's what a HOF is all about.  Currently, Bergeron has 1 Selke, and a Clancy.  He's the kind of player that could also win a Messier, Foundation, and a Plus-minus Award.  If he continues to play like he has, and wins any combination of the above awards 3 more times..I think he's a lock. 2 maybe.  My opinion....1 more trophy won't do it.  And I don't think multiple cups will matter either, unless 1 of them is on his back.  My overall opinion is pretty much in agreement with the OP.  To get in, he has to win multiple awards going forward, or score 1000ish.

    Lots to disagree with there, if you wish nas...hardly heresy though.  



    Bergeron vs. Gainey

    9.5 years vs. 16

    Good and bad B's teams vs. Habs Cups everywhere

    Let's compare the two when Bergeron hangs them up.

    As for the rest of it, I disagree.  Trophies are nice.  They don't tell the whole story.  Doug Gilmour won a Cup and a Selke.  He's in the Hall.  Ron Francis won the Cups, Selke, the Plus/Minus Award (now, that's a weak one), Lady Byng and King Clancy.  Dare I say that his individual awards aren't that much more impressive than Bergeron at this point?

    "Yeah, but NAS, those guys had tons of points also."  Yeah, they did.  Points don't get people elected.  Ask Housley.  Overall play gets guys elected.  If Bergeron continues to play at this current level until he's 33 or so, I say he gets into the Hall in his second or third year of eligibility.

    Jere Lehtinen won the Selke three times.  He won't ever get into the HOF.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Stuke50. Show Stuke50's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?


    If he stays healthy. Let's not forget that Bergeron is one hit away from retiring from hockey. If he does remain injury free, he will be in the H H of F for sure. Why ? Because he's still relatively young, 28 and he is filling up his resume. He was on the last Olympic squad. He has a Stanley Cup and will have several more before he's done. He will not only be on this Olympic squad, but he will be a very key player. His defensive abilities are well known now, throughout the NHL. Without doing the math, he's a steady eddie contributor to pts on this team. There is NO DOUBT he will be in the H H of F.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    In response to stevegm's comment:

    [QUOTE]
    Pickin fly shiite out of pepper again huh?  The guys who vote on HOF members are well aware of anyone of any significance to ever play in the NHL, not just those likely to get in.  I said his defensive game isn't as well known/popular/well documented/defined/considered....whatever term one wishes to use...as Gainey's.  How many other "Selke" type players got elected in the past 30 years?     And his offensive pacing doesn't suggest that part of his game is good enough to get in in.   

     

    It's certainly possible he gets in, but I feel he's going to need to step up his game.  Most players I can think of in the hall, had a part/parts of their game, widely considered outstanding over the course of a career.  That's what a HOF is all about.  Currently, Bergeron has 1 Selke, and a Clancy.  He's the kind of player that could also win a Messier, Foundation, and a Plus-minus Award.  If he continues to play like he has, and wins any combination of the above awards 3 more times..I think he's a lock. 2 maybe.  My opinion....1 more trophy won't do it.  And I don't think multiple cups will matter either, unless 1 of them is on his back.  My overall opinion is pretty much in agreement with the OP.  To get in, he has to win multiple awards going forward, or score 1000ish.

    Lots to disagree with there, if you wish nas...hardly heresy though.  

     



    Bergeron vs. Gainey

     

    9.5 years vs. 16

    Good and bad B's teams vs. Habs Cups everywhere

    Let's compare the two when Bergeron hangs them up.

    As for the rest of it, I disagree.  Trophies are nice.  They don't tell the whole story.  Doug Gilmour won a Cup and a Selke.  He's in the Hall.  Ron Francis won the Cups, Selke, the Plus/Minus Award (now, that's a weak one), Lady Byng and King Clancy.  Dare I say that his individual awards aren't that much more impressive than Bergeron at this point?

    "Yeah, but NAS, those guys had tons of points also."  Yeah, they did.  Points don't get people elected.  Ask Housley.  Overall play gets guys elected.  If Bergeron continues to play at this current level until he's 33 or so, I say he gets into the Hall in his second or third year of eligibility.

    Jere Lehtinen won the Selke three times.  He won't ever get into the HOF.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well said! 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

     


    26 games. That is what Orr played for the hawks. C'mon, he's a lifer. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    And never took a dime from them for those games played. Agree 100% with you.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: 1000 for Bergeron?

      

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Bergeron vs. Gainey

     

    9.5 years vs. 16

    Good and bad B's teams vs. Habs Cups everywhere

    Let's compare the two when Bergeron hangs them up.

    As for the rest of it, I disagree.  Trophies are nice.  They don't tell the whole story.  Doug Gilmour won a Cup and a Selke.  He's in the Hall.  Ron Francis won the Cups, Selke, the Plus/Minus Award (now, that's a weak one), Lady Byng and King Clancy.  Dare I say that his individual awards aren't that much more impressive than Bergeron at this point?

    "Yeah, but NAS, those guys had tons of points also."  Yeah, they did.  Points don't get people elected.  Ask Housley.  Overall play gets guys elected.  If Bergeron continues to play at this current level until he's 33 or so, I say he gets into the Hall in his second or third year of eligibility.

    Jere Lehtinen won the Selke three times.  He won't ever get into the HOF.

    [/QUOTE]

    Absolutely, there'll be more clarity when Bergerons career is finished.  I agree with your personal assessment about trophies and awards, but I think you and I are in the minority there.  They play a huge factor overall.  We see it all the time.  I don't have as much confidence in those voters as you do when it comes down to judging "overall play".  It seems more often than not, they look for headlines to validate their decision.  Same with "points".  They seem to be looked at quite favorably when handing out accolades.  You bring up  Hously, but he's a defensman who over the course of his career was a minus, twice as many years as he was on the plus side.  Two words often come up when talking about his defensive game.  "Soft" is one, and an "adventure" is another.  The fact over his career, he was never once seriously considered for a Norris has come up multiple times in his Hall debate.  Still wouldn't be surprised he doesn't get in someday, and if he does...it'll be because of "points".

    Players like Carbonneau and Lehtinen are real good examples of how hard it is to get HOF consideration when your forte is "responsible play", much more than the insignificance of trophies or points.

    Look at another guy who won the Selke once.  Doug Gilmore.  Played 20 seasons.  1400+ points.  Outstanding defensively, and considered one of the toughest most determined players to ever play the game.  Don't think he was even up for consideration in his first year or 2 of eligibility, and when he finally got consideration, he got passed over at least once before getting in.  Hard for me to figure Bergeron will get more/quicker consideration than Gilmore, trending along the way he has been.

    Finally, hope you're right and he does get in on his second or third year of eligibility.  Playing the SCF with broken bones and a punctured lung will become more legendary as time goes on(see Bobby Baun) and could define his legacy.  Overall though, I think Patrice is, and will be looked at like O'Reilly.  Legendary in Boston, as opposed to hugely respected everywhere else.

     
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