#4 = CLASS!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Stuke50. Show Stuke50's posts

    #4 = CLASS!

    Was watching Sportsdesk tonight and TSN showed Bobby Orr in Moncton, NB. He showed up on his own without anyone knowing and helped out with the kids hockey camp. Now that's class !...Made me proud to be a Bruin fan. !
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    And he spends the rest of his time as a dirty player agent, driving contracts through the roof.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from KMCI. Show KMCI's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    [QUOTE]And he spends the rest of his time as a dirty player agent, driving contracts through the roof.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    He is going for the fair market value with class, unlike his agent.
    Though had it not been for his agent he would now own the Bruins and then he would just be a cheapskate driving up the seat prices. I guess no matter what he would be better off in the poorhouse where his agent tried to leave him.


    GOAT!!!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Tom857. Show Tom857's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    How do agents drive up the prices? By taking multiple offers? They can't force anyone to pay anything. All they can do is be like "Hey, someone else offered my client more money, so he's going to go play for them unless you want to pay him as much or more." Which is the same things players would do, except probably not as well.
    I don't understand how you can be such a company-man, as if when your boss shows up to say he's slashing everyone's salary by 20% (like they did during the last CBA) you'd be like "Yeah, boss, you're right. My salary is OUT OF CONTROL. Good move."

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    Yeah, while there may be sleazy agents using sleazy tactics, the only people to blame for inflated contracts are the ones that offer to pay them.  Agents and players will always ask for as much as they can.  Idiot owners who offer the money and then cry about it are the culprits here.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from felixwas. Show felixwas's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    Hey, "shotless," where's your evidence for calling Orr a "dirty player agent"? Give me specific instances involving specific players and specific contracts. I won't bother to wait for these details: You haven't got them.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Davinator. Show Davinator's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to #4 = CLASS!:
    [QUOTE]Was watching Sportsdesk tonight and TSN showed Bobby Orr in Moncton, NB. He showed up on his own without anyone knowing and helped out with the kids hockey camp. Now that's class !...Made me proud to be a Bruin fan. !
    Posted by Stuke50[/QUOTE]

    To clarify, Orr was in nearby Dieppe N.B. (Fox Creek Golf Club) to host the Assumption Life‘s Bobby Orr Benefit Golf Tournament to aid cancer research for the Atlantic Cancer Research Institute.
    http://www.snapmoncton.com/index.php?option=com_sngevents&id%5B%5D=194272
     
    Although he was already in town to host this event, it was still a nice gesture to drop in and help out with the hockey camp!

    To me, Orr is still the man and Eagleson messed up his (and others') career(s) big time.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    [QUOTE]Hey, "shotless," where's your evidence for calling Orr a "dirty player agent"? Give me specific instances involving specific players and specific contracts. I won't bother to wait for these details: You haven't got them.
    Posted by felixwas[/QUOTE]
    Yeah, I certainly can't think of any of Orr's clients who held out for more cash. It may have happened but I'm unaware if it did.
     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    [QUOTE]Yeah, while there may be sleazy agents using sleazy tactics, the only people to blame for inflated contracts are the ones that offer to pay them.  Agents and players will always ask for as much as they can.  Idiot owners who offer the money and then cry about it are the culprits here.
    Posted by Fletcher1[/QUOTE]

    I'm sorry, but I can't understand this position - I really can't.  Especially on a Bruins board.  I listened to Bruins fans just ripping management and ownership for decades for being "cheap" and for not caring about winning and for being everything that's wrong with America or Canada or humanity because...wait for it...the Bruins refused to offer inflated contracts.  Now, someone's going to jump up and down and say "not inflated, just fair so guys would get what they were worth!" to which the childishly simple answer is that what seems like a good deal when spending someone else's money is often an inflated price when spending your own.  The Bruins resisted salary escalation as hard as any team in the league.  They had a top 20 all time player buy into it.  That player convinced the dictionary definition of a dominant power forward to buy into it.  I tend to think that it didn't hurt them much - I can't think of a single moment in time where the players they'd have needed to eclipse the dynastic Islanders, Oilers, or Penguins could have been had for the colour of money. 

    The problem is that the goal of every team in the league is to win; winning improves your bottom line and losing hurts it; to win you need quality players; there are only so many quality players available for the highest priority positions, teams compete to attract those players when they're available; the primary way of attracting players is cash; teams are forced to speculate that paying player A a $2M premium over his other offers will be worth it to them because they will win a few more games, get a few more butts in seats, maybe play one or two additional playoff games.  So they pay for what they hope will happen and not for the player's "worth".  The very nature of competition is inflationary, and owners are competing for a limited resource.

    Where agent sleaze comes in is that they get paid based on how much money they get their clients.  Never mind that the client might be going to a situation where he's set up to fail and ride the bus in the AHL for six years.  Never mind that most star players are driven by the desire to win, but also to be "the guy" when the team wins.  What's the number on the deal?  Is that number higher than the number on that other deal?  GREAT!  Take it.  The cap system has neutered them a bit - there's an overall limit to what they can get, and it's not rocket science to figure out that, if you're the third line C on a team, you can hold out 'til you're blue in the face and you're not going to get a ridiculous deal that will impact the two guys above you on the depth chart.  The one place agents still exercise their sleaze is - and this is the sleaziest part - with the youngest players.  Guys who get drafted 26th and refuse to sign unless they get Seguin's bonus package, sit out two years, get drafted again, but now lower and are stuck taking an even worse package.  And then there's the whole RFA process, which is really just blackmail because no one ever changes teams.

    You know what the owners should do to make the point about the inflationary contracts being an inevitable consequence of competing for players?  Contract.  Go back to 21 teams and see if anyone is in any hurry to pay Semin that stupid salary.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    [QUOTE]And he spends the rest of his time as a dirty player agent, driving contracts through the roof.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    Driving contracts through the roof. He's a player agent. This is a truly dumb comment.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from heyoo. Show heyoo's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    NAS is probably a 14 or 15 year old tough guy behind a keyboard....
     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : I'm sorry, but I can't understand this position - I really can't.  Especially on a Bruins board.  I listened to Bruins fans just ripping management and ownership for decades for being "cheap" and for not caring about winning and for being everything that's wrong with America or Canada or humanity because...wait for it...the Bruins refused to offer inflated contracts.  Now, someone's going to jump up and down and say "not inflated, just fair so guys would get what they were worth!" to which the childishly simple answer is that what seems like a good deal when spending someone else's money is often an inflated price when spending your own.  The Bruins resisted salary escalation as hard as any team in the league.  They had a top 20 all time player buy into it.  That player convinced the dictionary definition of a dominant power forward to buy into it.  I tend to think that it didn't hurt them much - I can't think of a single moment in time where the players they'd have needed to eclipse the dynastic Islanders, Oilers, or Penguins could have been had for the colour of money.  The problem is that the goal of every team in the league is to win; winning improves your bottom line and losing hurts it; to win you need quality players; there are only so many quality players available for the highest priority positions, teams compete to attract those players when they're available; the primary way of attracting players is cash; teams are forced to speculate that paying player A a $2M premium over his other offers will be worth it to them because they will win a few more games, get a few more butts in seats, maybe play one or two additional playoff games.  So they pay for what they hope will happen and not for the player's "worth".  The very nature of competition is inflationary, and owners are competing for a limited resource. Where agent sleaze comes in is that they get paid based on how much money they get their clients.  Never mind that the client might be going to a situation where he's set up to fail and ride the bus in the AHL for six years.  Never mind that most star players are driven by the desire to win, but also to be "the guy" when the team wins.  What's the number on the deal?  Is that number higher than the number on that other deal?  GREAT!  Take it.  The cap system has neutered them a bit - there's an overall limit to what they can get, and it's not rocket science to figure out that, if you're the third line C on a team, you can hold out 'til you're blue in the face and you're not going to get a ridiculous deal that will impact the two guys above you on the depth chart.  The one place agents still exercise their sleaze is - and this is the sleaziest part - with the youngest players.  Guys who get drafted 26th and refuse to sign unless they get Seguin's bonus package, sit out two years, get drafted again, but now lower and are stuck taking an even worse package.  And then there's the whole RFA process, which is really just blackmail because no one ever changes teams. You know what the owners should do to make the point about the inflationary contracts being an inevitable consequence of competing for players?  Contract.  Go back to 21 teams and see if anyone is in any hurry to pay Semin that stupid salary.
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    Wow, that's a long response to a pretty quick statement, but I'll try to follow up....  Plenty of guilt to go around Book, and I'm not trying to let agents off the hook entirely.  But realistically, of course agents are going to try to make top dollar and that is never going to change.  If you're looking for a solution to the problem it has to start with the owners -- they have the power to say 'no' and some already do.  Do you think agents are really going to get together and decide that part of their job duty is to assess what is most fair for all parties involved, even if that means less dough in the contracts?

    It all starts and ends with the owners.  Sure, everyone wants to win and you need good players to win.  That's a given.  But who says you have to make huge free-agents signing to get good players?  I think the prevailing model of building a championship team is mostly through draft/development with only a fraction on the free agent market.  If an agent demands too much and fails to get a contract, that is a great way to lose your clients and ruin your career as an agent.  Sleazy agents can only succeed with the cooperation of a stupid owner, whereas stupid owners would always be able to find a million sleazy agents if they want.  

    The solution is to stop the stupid owners from writing the checks, instead of asking agents to have a moral epiphany where they turn down huge contracts because it isn't good for the game.  Be realistic.  The big contracts lead to failure as often as they lead to success.  The owners need to evolve and learn to spend smarter.  Or they will lose.  You seem to assume that overspending helps them win more and make more money.  Ask the Islanders about that.  The system works, sometimes.

    Blaming the agents is like blaming the car salesman who talked me into buying a Corvette to drive my kids to school in.  He was so gosh-darned convincing that I bought a car I can't afford.  Who's fault is that? Let's call for a little personal responsibility instead of getting duped by agents and then crying foul because we lost our money.  These are successful businessmen too, not some crack addict at a pawn shop.  They're big boys.  You write the check, you are responsible for it.  The problem is with the owners.


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    Payroll is linked to revenues in the NHL's capped system. The only thing driving up player salaries is us buying tickets, watching TV and buying swag.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:[QUOTE]In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : Driving contracts through the roof. He's a player agent. This is a truly dumb comment.
    Posted by stan17[/QUOTE]

    Stan - that is the bi-weekly attention grabbing statement that his higness likes to throw out. Knowing that Orr is beloved one BDC he knew it would stike a cord, nothing more.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    Fletch - (responding without copying the long responses).  "Stopping" stupid owners from spending the money = collusion.  Once one or two do it, artibration starts to make stupid the new normal.  In this, it's not like you buying a corvette to drive your kids to school.  It's like you buying a corvette to get your kids to school because they only teach the first 50 kids to arrive, and they won't teach peasant children of mini-van drivers.

    Yes, developing/drafting is key, and UFAs are a limited luxury, but the real escalation over the last four years or so has been on second or third contracts for players who can use the threat of Charles Wang to get an inflationary deal.  If you develop players for four years, and then lose them to predatorily inflated deals from stupid owners, you become the Montreal Expos.  One of your former stars leads his team to a championship every year - just, you know, not your team.  And this too is an escalator in the system where comparables are the basis of negotiation.  Skinner signs a $5.75M on his second deal, you know Seguin's agent has a signed Skinner photo ready as an ice-breaker.

    Agents are what they are, but people are ripping NAS for giving a dictionary definition of what an agent is as though he's missed the point.  Agents are like defense lawyers - they are in it for their client and only their client and they will pillage whoever they can to get there.  Saying "of course, that's their job" doesn't change the fact that the job is what NAS said it is: drive salaries as high they can. 

    And the fact that this is impossible to correlate with success doesn't mean much.  Spending may not equal success, but not spending will lead to playoff DNQs more often than not.  Ten of the bottom 17 teams in terms of salary missed the playoffs last year.  This also doesn't account for the lost gate from the perception that you're not really trying to win if you're not spending big.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    It's not collusion Book, because there's no need for it.  The cap takes care of everything.  Sign a player for too much money, and it hurts you. The cap is going up because league revenues are going through the roof, and that's the way it should be.  The whole concept of a cap is to "grow together". 
    Anyway, the owners have their allowance.  If they choose to dribble it away, they must take responsibility.  They're at the top of the food chain, not the agents.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from felixwas. Show felixwas's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    Does anyone know how agents earn their money? Do they get a flat fee, or do they bill hourly for their services like lawyers do, or do they get a percentage of the money a player signs for? Or do some use one system, some another, some a combination, etc.?

    I have no idea how agents are compensated and think these questions are pertinent to this thread. Help, anyone?



     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    Most are on a percentage.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    [QUOTE]It's not collusion Book, because there's no need for it.  The cap takes care of everything.  Sign a player for too much money, and it hurts you. The cap is going up because league revenues are going through the roof, and that's the way it should be.  The whole concept of a cap is to "grow together".  Anyway, the owners have their allowance.  If they choose to dribble it away, they must take responsibility.  They're at the top of the food chain, not the agents.
    Posted by stevegm[/QUOTE]

    The cap takes care of some things.  Not everything.  As it's constituted, you can get relief from the cap and go right back out and do the next stupid thing as long as you have the cash in hand.  See: Redden, Wade.  If you need to save cash as well as cap there's always the buy-out: see Yashin, Alexei.  I was responding to Fletch's suggestion that the NHL could somehow stop stupid owners.  You've also ignored the rest of what I wrote, because the consequences of a stupid contract aren't borne solely by the team that makes a stupid decision.  Comparables and arbitration mechanisms visit the stupid decision on others when they have hearings and negotiations.

    We also haven't seen the collossal fail of the cap yet, just because revenues have leapt.  But there are more than a few teams that will be hurting if the cap comes down or even if it stagnates without a roll back.  Last year's cap was what, $64M?  Half the league is at $60M+.  That's not a lot of flexibility, and there will be some players who go looking for pay day and don't find it because there's no cap space, or the teams willing to spend to the cap are tied up.  Boston's situation isn't unique.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : Stan - that is the bi-weekly attention grabbing statement that his higness likes to throw out. Knowing that Orr is beloved one BDC he knew it would stike a cord, nothing more.
    Posted by SanDogBrewin[/QUOTE]

    Yes San you are correct and I should know that by now. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    [QUOTE]How do agents drive up the prices? By taking multiple offers? They can't force anyone to pay anything. All they can do is be like "Hey, someone else offered my client more money, so he's going to go play for them unless you want to pay him as much or more." Which is the same things players would do, except probably not as well. I don't understand how you can be such a company-man, as if when your boss shows up to say he's slashing everyone's salary by 20% (like they did during the last CBA) you'd be like "Yeah, boss, you're right. My salary is OUT OF CONTROL. Good move."
    Posted by Tom857[/QUOTE]

    Agents drive up prices by telling their clients to refrain from signing a contract during the season.  They drive up prices by telling their clients to wait to be UFA and test the market.  They drive up prices by telling their clients not to sign the deal for millions of dollars a year so they can squeeze more out of the team.

    And yes, Tom, the NHL was clearly running out of control and needed to scale back.  If I'm making more money than I would ever need and was told that I was now going to make less, but still more than I'd ever need, I'd probably show up for work the next day.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    [QUOTE]Hey, "shotless," where's your evidence for calling Orr a "dirty player agent"? Give me specific instances involving specific players and specific contracts. I won't bother to wait for these details: You haven't got them.
    Posted by felixwas[/QUOTE]

    "The Orr Hockey Group was formed when Orr bought his business back from Woolf Associates. Rick Curran and Orr along with partner Paul Krepelka incorporated the agency as Orr Hockey Group in February 2002.

    Orr is the majority owner of the agency, and Krepelka and agent Rick Curran are equity partners."



    Have a look at the contracts for Eric Staal and Jordan Staal.

    Take a look at Jeff Carter's deal.

    See Jason Spezza's deal.

    Tomas Plekanek's an example.


     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : Stan - that is the bi-weekly attention grabbing statement that his higness likes to throw out. Knowing that Orr is beloved one BDC he knew it would stike a cord, nothing more.
    Posted by SanDogBrewin[/QUOTE]

    Orr runs a player agency.

    Player agents are dirty in my book.

    But, I should refrain from saying so because people love him?
     

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