#4 = CLASS!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from felixwas. Show felixwas's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : "The Orr Hockey Group was formed when Orr bought his business back from Woolf Associates. Rick Curran and Orr along with partner Paul Krepelka incorporated the agency as Orr Hockey Group in February 2002. Orr is the majority owner of the agency, and Krepelka and agent Rick Curran are equity partners." Have a look at the contracts for Eric Staal and Jordan Staal. Take a look at Jeff Carter's deal. See Jason Spezza's deal. Tomas Plekanek's an example.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    Yo, Shotboy, you still haven't addressed your claim of "dirty" Orr. What is it exactly about those contracts that was "dirty"? Who said so—other than you, and you don't have enough information to make that statement with any credibility. You're just runnin' your gums.

    As for what agents suggest to their clients and how owners respond to those suggestions, have your Mom or Dad sit down with you and go over—slowly, so you'll understand it—the concept of supply and demand.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from felixwas. Show felixwas's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : Orr runs a player agency. Player agents are dirty in my book. But, I should refrain from saying so because people love him?
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    "Player agents are dirty in my book."

    When high school freshmen are first taught how to write persuasive essays, they learn that broad generalizations like yours are utterly without merit. You're making this way too easy, Shotboy. Is this the best you can do?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : Yo, Shotboy, you still haven't addressed your claim of "dirty" Orr. What is it exactly about those contracts that was "dirty"? Who said so—other than you, and you don't have enough information to make that statement with any credibility. You're just runnin' your gums. As for what agents suggest to their clients and how owners respond to those suggestions, have your Mom or Dad sit down with you and go over—slowly, so you'll understand it—the concept of supply and demand.
    Posted by felixwas


    Obviously you can't have an adult conversation here, so I won't be continuing this with you.

    And it's difficult for you to suggest that someone explain something to me when, after talking about the subject of agents, you asked how it all worked.


     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : Orr runs a player agency. Player agents are dirty in my book. But, I should refrain from saying so because people love him ? Posted by Not-A-Shot


    Eagleson was a shady attorney to begin with. Orr was a player first, who as we know got ripped off, then he studied the law to become an agent. To me there is difference.

    Chiarelli who went to law school, then became an agent before becoming an assistant GM shady or dirty ?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : Eagleson was a shady attorney to begin with. Orr was a player first, who as we know got ripped off, then he studied the law to become an agent. To me there is difference. Chiarelli who went to law school, then became an agent before becoming an assistant GM shady or dirty ?
    Posted by SanDogBrewin


    Chiarelli is a GM.  I don't perceive GMs as being dirty.

    Orr is an agent.  I perceive them as scum.  You know, the ones who convince a third line center to hold off on signing with his team, and then when they offer his client a whopper of a deal, tell him to refuse to sign in, force a trade and have the trading team sign the same deal?

    Dirty.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : Chiarelli is a GM.  I don't perceive GMs as being dirty. Orr is an agent.  I perceive them as scum.  You know, the ones who convince a third line center to hold off on signing with his team, and then when they offer his client a whopper of a deal, tell him to refuse to sign in, force a trade and have the trading team sign the same deal? Dirty.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    All of them ? 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : Chiarelli is a GM.  I don't perceive GMs as being dirty. Orr is an agent.  I perceive them as scum.  You know, the ones who convince a third line center to hold off on signing with his team, and then when they offer his client a whopper of a deal, tell him to refuse to sign in, force a trade and have the trading team sign the same deal? Dirty.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    Lol, what was Chiarelli prior to joining Ottawa.....a player agent. But I guess now he's ok, silly thinking.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : All of them ? 
    Posted by Chowdahkid-


    The minor league guys who help Div 1 players get jobs in the ECHL aren't a cause for concern, but when I think of any major league agent, I think scum.
     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from felixwas. Show felixwas's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : Obviously you can't have an adult conversation here, so I won't be continuing this with you. And it's difficult for you to suggest that someone explain something to me when, after talking about the subject of agents, you asked how it all worked.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    Waaaaa! Take your puck and go home, Shotboy. But on the way home, remember:

    • In a public forum, you made scurrilous allegations against Bobby Orr for which you have provided no evidence, despite being asked repeatedly to do so.

    • Your claim that all player agents are scum is a broad generalization, and broad generalizations have no place in an "adult conversation" because—well, I shouldn't have to explain it to you again.

    • As for my questions about how the agent system works, the two items I've just bulleted are pretty fair indicators that you don't know, either.

    Invariably, a post from you is "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." Recognize the quotation? It's Shakespeare. Is he "adult" enough for you?

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    Player agents have one interest. Well, two, the player and how much money the player gets, since it helps their own cause. Does that make them scum? Can't say for sure, never dealt with one.

    Going from what quotes I've read and heard, I'd say Scott boras and Drew Rosenhus are absolute scum. Everytime I hear them speak it's like they insult peoples intelligence. Just about everything that comes out of their mouth is a lie to help benefit their client.
     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : Lol, what was Chiarelli prior to joining Ottawa.....a player agent. But I guess now he's ok, silly thinking.
    Posted by stan17


    Correct.  It's the position held, not the person holding it.

    Read my initial statement.


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! :  You know, the ones who convince a third line center to hold off on signing with his team, and then when they offer his client a whopper of a deal, tell him to refuse to sign in, force a trade and have the trading team sign the same deal? Dirty.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    In that instance the agent got their client more money that isn't dirty that is smart. What Eagleson did to Orr was dirty, how Zito coached Thomas was dirty...
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from felixwas. Show felixwas's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : Correct.  It's the position held, not the person holding it. Read my initial statement.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    "It's the position held, not the person holding it." In reponse, I was going to say, "By that logic," but then I realized your statement has no logic at all. Shotboy, put your computer away: You're embarrassing yourself. Seriously.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : In that instance the agent got their client more money that isn't dirty that is smart. What Eagleson did to Orr was dirty, how Zito coached Thomas was dirty...
    Posted by SanDogBrewin


    Or maybe Don Meehan (maybe).

    Or maybe the second group of agents that comment here:

    http://www.winnipegsun.com/2012/07/18/pavelecs-agent-should-have-been-up-front-about-jets-goalies-dui
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : The minor league guys who help Div 1 players get jobs in the ECHL aren't a cause for concern, but when I think of any major league agent, I think scum.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    Not knowing how every major league agent works I think this type of thinking is a little bit over the top. Lumping them all together in one category because of certain bad apples is stereotyping.

    Like everything else they should be judged on an individual basis.

    Eg. heyoo and Stanley are posters. They are numskulls. The rest of us are posters too. Should we all be categorized as numskulls because of them.

    In Orr's case I have seen no evidence of wrongdoing on his part for him to be considered as scum. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : Not knowing how every major league agent works I think this type of thinking is a little bit over the top. Lumping them all together in one category because of certain bad apples is stereotyping. Like everything else they should be judged on an individual basis. Eg. heyoo and Stanley are posters. They are numskulls. The rest of us are posters too. Should we all be categorized as numskulls because of them. In Orr's case I have seen no evidence of wrongdoing on his part for him to be considered as scum. 
    Posted by Chowdahkid-


    I see the job of player agent as dirty.  Stereotyping or not, it's my perception.  If I said the same thing about Mike Barnett, no one would blink, but because Bobby Orr is one, everyone is rushing to defend the profession.

    I'm not suggesting that Orr breaks the law, but the whole Jordan Staal fiasco in Pittsburgh certainly reeked of an agent's stunts, and I don't like those stunts.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : I see the job of player agent as dirty.  Stereotyping or not, it's my perception.  If I said the same thing about Mike Barnett, no one would blink, but because Bobby Orr is one, everyone is rushing to defend the profession. I'm not suggesting that Orr breaks the law, but the whole Jordan Staal fiasco in Pittsburgh certainly reeked of an agent's stunts, and I don't like those stunts.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot


    This is where we differ on some topics. You tend to lump into categories. 

    Eg. Your last line underlined. Not everyone who has posted feels this way.

    There are some who just see player agents not all being scum. They work for the player. They do what they feel is in the best interests of the player. Some are right and some are wrong. I agree with that thought regardless whether Orr was an agent or not. You don't because of generalizing the profession the way you see it.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! :  Lumping them all together in one category because of certain bad apples is stereotyping. Like everything else they should be judged on an individual basis. Posted by Chowdahkid-


    This has always been my thoughts that it can't be 100% but I would say a very hight percentage are pretty slimy.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS! : This has always been my thoughts that it can't be 100% but I would say a very hight percentage are pretty slimy.
    Posted by SanDogBrewin


    You could be right. This is the perception. But perceptions are not always what they seem to be.

    There's no definite yes or no answer here because of the unknown of what goes on behind the scenes. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    I can't comment on Orr , I just don't know enough .
    Because of other sports and the media attention agents get it does smear their reputation.  I tend to clump them up also and don't like them.
    As for Orr .... it's really hard for me to put him in that class, I cannot be objective.

    p.s. GM's can be dirty also.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    The only reason players started giving significant portions of their pay to agents, is because they were being shamefully exploited by their employers.  It's juvenile to suggest the business of hockey would be better without them.  By definition, agents bring more balance to the process, however balance only happens when the needle is positioned in the middle, during its journey to either the left or right. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    I doubt Harry Sinden sat down in '97 and said "you know, the intent of the rookie salary cap in the newly-signed CBA is to limit the risk of overpaying an 18yr old kid based on where he was drafted so that teams who need to bring in young talent aren't crippled with terrible contracts, and also to give kids time to develop before they get the pressure of a huge contract.  But you know what?  Screwge that.  I'm going to absolutely obliterate that intent with a bunch of meaningless bonus clauses that a decent TimBits player could achieve."

    I can believe that negotiations opened with the Bruins saying "max rookie money!" and the agent saying "well, that may be the letter of the law...".  Again, yes, the job of a player agent is to serve the best interests of the player - not necessarily to get him as much cash as possible - so if the agent sees a flaw in the CBA that can be exploited, and then uses the possibility of a holdout as leverage to get the team on board with exploiting the protections in the CBA, the agent is just doing what it does.  Frog and the scorpion.  But I don't spend a lot of time defending scorpions as good house pets.

    The sliminess of the job is enhanced by the fact that the agents aren't party to the CBA negotiations.  Presumably the players as a group agree to a deal with the intent of upholding its principles.  Then individually, they turn around to their agents and say "how can I make this work better for me."  Slimy.  You love an accountant who finds you tax loopholes, but that's still slimy.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: #4 = CLASS!

    In Response to Re: #4 = CLASS!:
    I doubt Harry Sinden sat down in '97 and said "you know, the intent of the rookie salary cap in the newly-signed CBA is to limit the risk of overpaying an 18yr old kid based on where he was drafted so that teams who need to bring in young talent aren't crippled with terrible contracts, and also to give kids time to develop before they get the pressure of a huge contract.  But you know what?  Screwge that.  I'm going to absolutely obliterate that intent with a bunch of meaningless bonus clauses that a decent TimBits player could achieve." I can believe that negotiations opened with the Bruins saying "max rookie money!" and the agent saying "well, that may be the letter of the law...".  Again, yes, the job of a player agent is to serve the best interests of the player - not necessarily to get him as much cash as possible - so if the agent sees a flaw in the CBA that can be exploited, and then uses the possibility of a holdout as leverage to get the team on board with exploiting the protections in the CBA, the agent is just doing what it does.  Frog and the scorpion.  But I don't spend a lot of time defending scorpions as good house pets. The sliminess of the job is enhanced by the fact that the agents aren't party to the CBA negotiations.  Presumably the players as a group agree to a deal with the intent of upholding its principles.  Then individually, they turn around to their agents and say "how can I make this work better for me ."  Slimy.  You love an accountant who finds you tax loopholes, but that's still slimy.
    Posted by Bookboy007


    I guess we can debate levels of sliminess all day long.  Do you think agents "work the system" harder than owners and GM's ?
     
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