A Different Look At Finances

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Who cares if the guy isn't put on the ice to kill penalties?  Marchand doesn't play on the man advantage.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Marchand isn't a $9 million player.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Great thread.

    Just so we're clear, Chara's cap hit does drop to 4 in year 4 because he's over 41.  So I'll ignore that year and assume that at that point Chara is being paid to be a 41 year old 3/4 defenseman.

    So for the next 3 years would I take Chara/Rask at 14 million or Subban/Price at 15.5?  No question it's Chara/Rask.  I would take the Bruins combo hands down even if the cash was the same, the extra 1.5 million (and the ability to have a Smith as a #6 forward instead of a Caron) is a nice bonus.

    Rask is superior to Price.  Rask has outplayed him in nearly every opportunity.  He has better stats, a better record, better playoff success and to me is just a better, more consistent goalie.  He was even better in the Olympics that everyone loves to praise Price for, and if Rask hadn't been sick for the semi's Finland might have made it to the finals and had a real shot at beating Canada (they almost did in the previous match).  Price got way to much credit for the playoff win over the Bruins last year.  The Bruins mad him look good, and with I believe with around 40% of the Canadien goals on the PP they made Rask look bad... and with that it was still close.  Price hasn't shown the consistency to last more than a playoff round and was already losing focus when he was injured against the Rangers.

    Chara is vastly superior to Subban.  Chara is one of the few players in the game who truly dominates.  He's exceptionally difficult to play against, and is also a significant contributor to offence.  Subban has some special skills.  His one-timer is spectacular and can have an impact in games.  He plays a unique, unpredictable style that can mix things up.  He's also solid and very difficult to hit.  But he's hardly a shut-down man by any stretch, and his offence, while good, is not especially remarkable.   There are more than a half-dozen players in the league just as productive or better.  Even Chara is close, but there is no one superior to him on D.  Maybe one or two that could even be called an even match.

    And beyond pure talent there are the intangibles.  I've already said that I consider Price a bit fragile, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he's a goalie you can build around.  Subban -- he's a disgrace.  I'll be the first to say I love  having a rat on a contending team to stir things up and play with an ego and fire up the bench.  But I don't think that player should ever be your star, your go-to guy or your captain.  They should never be the player the others look to.  In Chara the Bruins have a leader and star that others can admire and aspire to be like.  When he speaks, others listen.  When the pressure's on he can keep it together.  With Subban he's the first guy to crack and b*tch at teammates.  Twice now in the last two years we've seen the habs implode in a playoff series.  Subban was at the heart of the in-fighting against the Sens, yelling and b*tching at his fellow Canadiens.  Unlike Chara who goes above and beyond to play a clean classy game and not hurt anyone, Subban looks for cheap shots and players with their head down.  Rather than come to a teammate's aid he turtles when challenged.  When that's your star, the attitude spreads to the others, for better or worse.

    So it's no question, I'm taking Chara/Rask for the next 3 years and beyond.  Even when you consider the age difference between Chara and Subban it's Chara all the way.  I only take Subban if he's a 5 million, secondary player with someone like Chara to keep his ego in line.

    [/QUOTE]

    A very good post OatesCam

     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to kelvana33's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Great thread.

    Just so we're clear, Chara's cap hit does drop to 4 in year 4 because he's over 41.  So I'll ignore that year and assume that at that point Chara is being paid to be a 41 year old 3/4 defenseman.

    So for the next 3 years would I take Chara/Rask at 14 million or Subban/Price at 15.5?  No question it's Chara/Rask.  I would take the Bruins combo hands down even if the cash was the same, the extra 1.5 million (and the ability to have a Smith as a #6 forward instead of a Caron) is a nice bonus.

    Rask is superior to Price.  Rask has outplayed him in nearly every opportunity.  He has better stats, a better record, better playoff success and to me is just a better, more consistent goalie.  He was even better in the Olympics that everyone loves to praise Price for, and if Rask hadn't been sick for the semi's Finland might have made it to the finals and had a real shot at beating Canada (they almost did in the previous match).  Price got way to much credit for the playoff win over the Bruins last year.  The Bruins mad him look good, and with I believe with around 40% of the Canadien goals on the PP they made Rask look bad... and with that it was still close.  Price hasn't shown the consistency to last more than a playoff round and was already losing focus when he was injured against the Rangers.

    Chara is vastly superior to Subban.  Chara is one of the few players in the game who truly dominates.  He's exceptionally difficult to play against, and is also a significant contributor to offence.  Subban has some special skills.  His one-timer is spectacular and can have an impact in games.  He plays a unique, unpredictable style that can mix things up.  He's also solid and very difficult to hit.  But he's hardly a shut-down man by any stretch, and his offence, while good, is not especially remarkable.   There are more than a half-dozen players in the league just as productive or better.  Even Chara is close, but there is no one superior to him on D.  Maybe one or two that could even be called an even match.

    And beyond pure talent there are the intangibles.  I've already said that I consider Price a bit fragile, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he's a goalie you can build around.  Subban -- he's a disgrace.  I'll be the first to say I love  having a rat on a contending team to stir things up and play with an ego and fire up the bench.  But I don't think that player should ever be your star, your go-to guy or your captain.  They should never be the player the others look to.  In Chara the Bruins have a leader and star that others can admire and aspire to be like.  When he speaks, others listen.  When the pressure's on he can keep it together.  With Subban he's the first guy to crack and b*tch at teammates.  Twice now in the last two years we've seen the habs implode in a playoff series.  Subban was at the heart of the in-fighting against the Sens, yelling and b*tching at his fellow Canadiens.  Unlike Chara who goes above and beyond to play a clean classy game and not hurt anyone, Subban looks for cheap shots and players with their head down.  Rather than come to a teammate's aid he turtles when challenged.  When that's your star, the attitude spreads to the others, for better or worse.

    So it's no question, I'm taking Chara/Rask for the next 3 years and beyond.  Even when you consider the age difference between Chara and Subban it's Chara all the way.  I only take Subban if he's a 5 million, secondary player with someone like Chara to keep his ego in line.

    [/QUOTE]

    How did the Bruins make Price look good? Why could he not have just played well? Have you checked Rasks numbers against the Habs? If the Bruins make Price look better than he is like you said, then how with Rasks numbers against the Habs have they not made him look bad. That post looked like it was written in black and gold ink.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Call it what you will.  I thought the Bruins played some of their worst hockey of the season against the Habs in that series.  Price played well, but I can hardly remember more than a handful of difficult saves.  The Canadiens pp scored a ridiculous 8/20 goals in the series.  You can blame Rask, but by my observation it was a poor PK from the Bruins combined with an excessive number of penalty calls.

    But the fundamental point is that outside of this most recent Bruins-Habs series, Rask is a significantly better goaltender.  Especially in the Playoffs, Price has been poor.

    I think it's the opposite of what you say. You can say I have black-and-gold goggles on, but I think many are wearing reverse Bruins goggles because of one playoff round.  If you are looking at things in an unbiased fashion, Rask is the overall much better goaltender with much better results.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to kelvana33's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    [/QUOTE]


    Chara was a Norris finalist just last season and people were starting to wonder how a trophy for the league's best defenseman has only been awarded to Chara once so far with his body of work. Do you think he might be a finalist for the Norris again next year? How about the year after that? Chara is still a superstar player any way you want to slice it and until PK starts killing penalties,etc, I'll take Chara ahead of him every day..

    [/QUOTE]

    Terrific argument Dez, but I still take Subban today. 2 years ago no, and I don't even think Charas' game has slipped as much as most think, if at all. With all the injuries last year, and rookie d-men, I'd argue last year was one of his better years. I just think right now, Subban has more of an impact on a game and his defensive work has improved. I think with Gorges gone, he may be asked to do more penalty killing.


    [/QUOTE]

    I almost wonder if that was the plan in moving JG unexpectedly. 

    To the "xxxxxx-colored glasses" comments, it's hard to say which colour is winning out.  OatesCam's right - perception of the Scab duo is coloured by the recent playoff series.  I'd love to hear what someone who sees Subban AND Chara against Dallas and Vancouver and Detroit on a regular basis would say.  Ditto Price/Rask.

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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    I almost wonder if that was the plan in moving JG unexpectedly. 

    To the "xxxxxx-colored glasses" comments, it's hard to say which colour is winning out.  OatesCam's right - perception of the Scab duo is coloured by the recent playoff series.  I'd love to hear what someone who sees Subban AND Chara against Dallas and Vancouver and Detroit on a regular basis would say.  Ditto Price/Rask.

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    [/QUOTE]

    That applies to almost every team Book. Perception of the Canucks is colored here by recent playoff series. Price/Suuban seem to step it up against their biggest rivals, I'd argue their play against the Bruins is a good barometer for measuring how good they are. Vancouver and Dallas fans don't see as much of Subban and Chara so of course their opinion will be different, and when they do see them, the stakes aren't nearly as high.




     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from shuperman. Show shuperman's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    Thank god the first quarter of this debate can start soon.  NFL a month away and hockey getting closer as well.  I love the summer months but im a sucker for the fall months. 

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    Amen, shupe.  I actually went to a bar to watch the Hall of Fame game.  Sloppy, ugly, Joe Dudek football but there you have it.  The CFL helps a bit, but 4 games a week is like methadone - it's not the real thing.

     

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Amen, shupe.  I actually went to a bar to watch the Hall of Fame game.  Sloppy, ugly, Joe Dudek football but there you have it.  The CFL helps a bit, but 4 games a week is like methadone - it's not the real thing.

     

     

    Are you not entertained?!?!

    [/QUOTE]


    The fall is where its at baby!! World Series,Cfl playoffs,Nfl in full swing & of course the NHL is starting up, throw in the World Ping-Pong championships and the World Cup of Darts and my plate is full!

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to kelvana33's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bookboy007's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    I almost wonder if that was the plan in moving JG unexpectedly. 

    To the "xxxxxx-colored glasses" comments, it's hard to say which colour is winning out.  OatesCam's right - perception of the Scab duo is coloured by the recent playoff series.  I'd love to hear what someone who sees Subban AND Chara against Dallas and Vancouver and Detroit on a regular basis would say.  Ditto Price/Rask.

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    [/QUOTE]

    That applies to almost every team Book. Perception of the Canucks is colored here by recent playoff series. Price/Suuban seem to step it up against their biggest rivals, I'd argue their play against the Bruins is a good barometer for measuring how good they are. Vancouver and Dallas fans don't see as much of Subban and Chara so of course their opinion will be different, and when they do see them, the stakes aren't nearly as high.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry, kel, what I meant was someone without a rooting interest who can tell you that Subban, when he's not high on wanting to beat the Bruins, isn't the same kind of dominant player or who could put his finger on why Subban routinely looks deadly vs. Boston but looked so average against the Rangers.  Ditto Chara - why does Chara dominate just about every team in the league but have difficulty with Montreal?  Other teams have speed, and Chara does just fine.  Price/Rask - apart from the final 2 games, they were a wash, and even then, I don't think Rask was the problem in games 6 and 7.  Rask gets bit by the age old thing that makes Grant Fuhr and Billy Smith seem like giants - win and you played well; lose and you're just Tommy Salo in a different suit.  I'm not sure that's wrong.  But for the first 5 games of the series, Price's GAA was close to 3 and his s% a respectable but not world-beating .921.  Rask had a better by about half a goal a game and was .001 worse in s%.  From that point on, a lot of what followed was about horrible gaffes by rookie defensemen, one team that collectively took the pipe and another than collectively ate spinach.

    Right now, if these guys were stocks, I think there's a bubble in the Price/Subban world, and Rask/Chara isn't exactly depressed, but they look it compared to the bubble.

    I should be clear here, though - this is not about saying Subban and Price are average players being inflated to make us all feel better about the Bruins losing to Mtl.  Subban's a top 10 D because he's such a fearless offensive player and an increasingly effective defender.  Price is a top 5 goalie.  Chara's a top 5 defenseman (top three this year) and Rask a top 5 goalie (tops this year).  Where in the top 5 or 10 you place them is something that's very hard to do if one series carries an inordinate amount of weight in your judgment.  Think of how many players have one good playoff and get overpaid....  Again, Subban and Price aren't the NHL equivalent of Larry Brown; I just find this whole thread to be a lot more about reading that series than anything else.

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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to shuperman's comment:[QUOTE]

    Thank god the first quarter of this debate can start soon.  NFL a month away and hockey getting closer as well.  I love the summer months but im a sucker for the fall months. [/QUOTE]

     

    3rd pre-season games are good because the coaches leave the starters in for almost 3 quarters. 

    SEC games on Saturdays never let any football fan down. Watching that conference is like watching the pros.

    Gotta agree fall is awesome!

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Who cares if the guy isn't put on the ice to kill penalties?  Marchand doesn't play on the man advantage.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Marchand isn't a $9 million player.

    [/QUOTE]

    No, he's not, but that's not the point.  The point is that Subban not killing penalties and Marchand not on the powerplay are coaching decisions.  No one with an ounce of hockey knowledge will tell you that either is incapable of playing in those situations.  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Who cares if the guy isn't put on the ice to kill penalties?  Marchand doesn't play on the man advantage.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Marchand isn't a $9 million player.

    [/QUOTE]

    No, he's not, but that's not the point.  The point is that Subban not killing penalties and Marchand not on the powerplay are coaching decisions.  No one with an ounce of hockey knowledge will tell you that either is incapable of playing in those situations.  

    [/QUOTE]

    I think it's part of the point.  I think Marchand would do fine on the PP and Subban would be OK on the PK.  But neither player is clearly deserving of the role in their coaches mind.  They feel there are better options. That does say something.

    For me Subban is much closer to a Krug than a Chara when it comes to a Bruins comparable.  Chara, Doughty, Weber, Keith... these guys are amazing in all respects of their hockey.  Any coach would be fired for not using them in any important situation and there is no question that they should be a starter at the Olympics.  Subban is more like Karlsson, only not nearly as good. He's a teir-2 #1D with a one-dimensional bent.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to OatesCam's comment:
    [QUOTE]

      Subban is more like Karlsson, only not nearly as good. He's a teir-2 #1D with a one-dimensional bent.

    [/QUOTE]
    I like this comparison except when Pernell is playing the B's, then he becomes a Weber,Doughty,Keith hybrid ,against the other teams in the NHL the Karlsson comparison fits. 


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    Chara was a Norris finalist just last season and people were starting to wonder how a trophy for the league's best defenseman has only been awarded to Chara once so far with his body of work. Do you think he might be a finalist for the Norris again next year? How about the year after that? Chara is still a superstar player any way you want to slice it and until PK starts killing penalties,etc, I'll take Chara ahead of him every day..

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes Chara was a finalist and I'm not taking anything away from him. I think considering all the hockey he played last year; overall it was his best season ever even though his overall point production was down. Still think that PK is only going to continue to get better while Chara may not digress much it'll still be a gradual one. That's why at this stage I'm picking PK.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

     

    How did the Bruins make Price look good? Why could he not have just played well? Have you checked Rasks numbers against the Habs? If the Bruins make Price look better than he is like you said, then how with Rasks numbers against the Habs have they not made him look bad. That post looked like it was written in black and gold ink.

    Forget it kel.  This comes from someone who knows nothing about the position. Price's movement in that series was almost flawless. It wasn't that the Bruins shots weren't difficult, that was Carey making them look easy. Was he lucky with the Bruins hitting 14 post and bars? Of course, but that also shows that the B's were trying to pick corners, because he wasn't allowing any "gimmies". He was making the Bruins work for every goal. Rask wasn't the reason the Bruins lost that series, but Carey was a big reason why the Habs won it. Rask wasn't awful, but he wasn't as consistent as Price was in the 7 games. I think when both goalies are on their game I give Tuukka the edge because I have yet to see Price hold a team like the Pens to 2 goals in 4 games. I have yet to see Price make an a huge save in game of OT like the one Rask made off Lupal before Bergeron completed the comeback. The other thing that peeves me to no end are the so called  knowledgeable not give Price props for his play in the Olympics. It's a very hard job to stay focused and in tune with the game when you only get 20 shots with a huge lull in between. That can be harder to do then when facing 60. His focus was off the charts in those games. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to OatesCam's comment:



     




     





    I think it's part of the point.  I think Marchand would do fine on the PP and Subban would be OK on the PK.  But neither player is clearly deserving of the role in their coaches mind.  They feel there are better options. That does say something.


     


     


    For me Subban is much closer to a Krug than a Chara when it comes to a Bruins comparable.  Chara, Doughty, Weber, Keith... these guys are amazing in all respects of their hockey.  Any coach would be fired for not using them in any important situation and there is no question that they should be a starter at the Olympics.  Subban is more like Karlsson, only not nearly as good. He's a teir-2 #1D with a one-dimensional bent.


     


    [/QUOTE]

    I think Subban isn't on the penalty kill for a few reason and not one of them is because he isn't good enough. He plays consistently against the other teams number one players 5 on 5. I know he was sometimes out there for the whole 2 minute power play. Why would you have P.K Subban on the penalty using minutes when you have Josh Gorges who doesn't see any power play time. At some point you have to manage their minutes.


     


    Also, to compare Subban to Karlsson  is just ridiculous. He is not as good offensively as Karlsson, nobody is, not Doughty, Weber or Chara. But I'd argue Subban can skate with him, is better defensively, has a better shot and is 100 times more physical than Karlsson. By no means are those two players similar.


    Just because two players playing the same position put up points does not make them similar.


     






     


     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    How did the Bruins make Price look good? Why could he not have just played well? Have you checked Rasks numbers against the Habs? If the Bruins make Price look better than he is like you said, then how with Rasks numbers against the Habs have they not made him look bad. That post looked like it was written in black and gold ink.

    Forget it kel.  This comes from someone who knows nothing about the position. Price's movement in that series was almost flawless. It wasn't that the Bruins shots weren't difficult, that was Carey making them look easy. Was he lucky with the Bruins hitting 14 post and bars? Of course, but that also shows that the B's were trying to pick corners, because he wasn't allowing any "gimmies". He was making the Bruins work for every goal. Rask wasn't the reason the Bruins lost that series, but Carey was a big reason why the Habs won it. Rask wasn't awful, but he wasn't as consistent as Price was in the 7 games. I think when both goalies are on their game I give Tuukka the edge because I have yet to see Price hold a team like the Pens to 2 goals in 4 games. I have yet to see Price make an a huge save in game of OT like the one Rask made off Lupal before Bergeron completed the comeback. The other thing that peeves me to no end are the so called  knowledgeable not give Price props for his play in the Olympics. It's a very hard job to stay focused and in tune with the game when you only get 20 shots with a huge lull in between. That can be harder to do then when facing 60. His focus was off the charts in those games. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Well said Nite, if Canada lost it would have been Price fault. They win and people don't want to give him credit. Same people who kept saying goaltending was their weakness going into the tournament. I seem to recall their "strength" up front having a difficult time there for a while.




     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from socca10. Show socca10's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    I've always thought Price is a solid goaltender, but not a stud. He's no Quick, Rask, or even Hasek, Brodeur, Thomas (in their primes). There are very few "holy #$%! did you SEE that save?!?" moments with Price. And his career playoff stats are generally worse than his regular-season stats, which to me indicates a trend that he doesn't exactly rise to the occasion.

    I agree too that the eyeball test didn't really show Price stealing games vs the Bruins last year. Again, not that he's in any way a bad goalie, but I'd say he's solid and fairly consistent, if not flashy.

    PK is a fantastic offensive defenseman, but he's in no way an elite defensive player. If the Norris hadn't devolved into a "highest-scoring defenseman" trophy, PK wouldn't ever be in the top 10 in voting. 

    The supporting casts make all the difference: if the Bruins didn't have Hamilton, Krug, and to a lesser degree Bart (for his skating ability only, not his 10-cent noggin) then I'd consider Price/PK to be a better investment. Hard to have this hypothetical discussion without understanding the context, and in the context of who the Bruins are and who they have on the roster, I'd take Chara/Rask hands down. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to socca10's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've always thought Price is a solid goaltender, but not a stud. He's no Quick, Rask, or even Hasek, Brodeur, Thomas (in their primes). There are very few "holy #$%! did you SEE that save?!?" moments with Price. And his career playoff stats are generally worse than his regular-season stats, which to me indicates a trend that he doesn't exactly rise to the occasion.

    I agree too that the eyeball test didn't really show Price stealing games vs the Bruins last year. Again, not that he's in any way a bad goalie, but I'd say he's solid and fairly consistent, if not flashy.

    PK is a fantastic offensive defenseman, but he's in no way an elite defensive player. If the Norris hadn't devolved into a "highest-scoring defenseman" trophy, PK wouldn't ever be in the top 10 in voting. 

    The supporting casts make all the difference: if the Bruins didn't have Hamilton, Krug, and to a lesser degree Bart (for his skating ability only, not his 10-cent noggin) then I'd consider Price/PK to be a better investment. Hard to have this hypothetical discussion without understanding the context, and in the context of who the Bruins are and who they have on the roster, I'd take Chara/Rask hands down. 

    [/QUOTE]

    This is just from one game last year.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfvK8eKH_-M" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfvK8eKH_-M

     




     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    a quick Rask - Price comparison                                                             


     


    RASK                     SAVE%  GAA 


     


    Regular season       .928     2.11


     


    Playoffs                  .930    2.11


     


    PRICE        


     


    Regular season        .917    2.52


     


    Playoffs                   .909    2.74         


     


    edit: I posted the wrong playoff save % for price. The point is, Rask is basically the same guy in the playoffs whereas Price is slightly off from his regular season stats.


     


     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Who cares if the guy isn't put on the ice to kill penalties?  Marchand doesn't play on the man advantage.  

    [/QUOTE]


    The Habs coaching staff seems to care about whether or not the highest paid defenseman is solid enough during the game's most important defensive situations. Subban's pay scale means he should be at the top of the list for D scoring (instead of tied with Yandle for 5th) since he's basically just a PP specialist. Is Subban even as good as Markov? If so, shouldn't he receive as much ice time as Markov does?  To me, Subban is great on the PP but his defensive shortcomings leave him behind quite a few NHL D-men. BTW, what does Marchand have to do with anything?

     
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    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    How did the Bruins make Price look good? Why could he not have just played well? Have you checked Rasks numbers against the Habs? If the Bruins make Price look better than he is like you said, then how with Rasks numbers against the Habs have they not made him look bad. That post looked like it was written in black and gold ink.

    Forget it kel.  This comes from someone who knows nothing about the position. Price's movement in that series was almost flawless. It wasn't that the Bruins shots weren't difficult, that was Carey making them look easy. Was he lucky with the Bruins hitting 14 post and bars? Of course, but that also shows that the B's were trying to pick corners, because he wasn't allowing any "gimmies". He was making the Bruins work for every goal. Rask wasn't the reason the Bruins lost that series, but Carey was a big reason why the Habs won it. Rask wasn't awful, but he wasn't as consistent as Price was in the 7 games. I think when both goalies are on their game I give Tuukka the edge because I have yet to see Price hold a team like the Pens to 2 goals in 4 games. I have yet to see Price make an a huge save in game of OT like the one Rask made off Lupal before Bergeron completed the comeback. The other thing that peeves me to no end are the so called  knowledgeable not give Price props for his play in the Olympics. It's a very hard job to stay focused and in tune with the game when you only get 20 shots with a huge lull in between. That can be harder to do then when facing 60. His focus was off the charts in those games. 

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    I agree that it is sometimes hard to keep focused when you only get 20 shots, but when virtually all of those shots are weak dribblers or uncontested shots with no traffic, then it is hard to give undue credit.  In watching those games, the Canadian defense allowed absolutely nothing. It was the best team defensive effort I ever witnessed in an International setting.  Even against the US, the only big chance I can think of was an early Kessell bid in the first period.  In short, it did not matter who Team Canada put in goal for those Olympics. 

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SanDogBrewin. Show SanDogBrewin's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    Thankfully the coach who decided Marchand shouldn't be on the PP is now in Germany. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    Man, some of the negatives about Price and Subban here seem goofy to me.  They are both awesome players that any team would want.  I think you can only really be critical when comparing them to top of the league salaries, or in this case, the Vezina-Norris combo in Rask-Chara.

    I don't think there's much criticism for Price that makes sense, except that maybe, like Rask, he hasn't shown he can lead a team through a 6-week playoff run and win it all.  I think Rask was a little bit better last year, as evidenced by the Vezina.  Not much though, and Price deserves credit for the Olympic performance.

    I think that the difference between Chara and Subban still lies in the body of work.  As much as we have seen of Subban, we haven't seen enough to know if he's a legit $9 million dollar man.  I think he isn't.

    Subban does some things to justify the contract -- game breaking talent, speed, skating, he can hit, outlet passes are good, can carry the puck, and has shown a habit of burying his slap shot in desperate moments.

    But, there are some items that give you pause, and the Habs are now hoping he can work them out, after the huge contract signing, not before.

    I think it is a concern that he isn't used much at all shorthanded.  A #1 defensemen with that contract should be trusted in all situations.  I think the reason is not to save his energy either -- it's because he's not that great of a defender when staying in position is important.  Frankly, he's out of position a lot, but makes up for it with his skating most of the time.  Tough to do that shorthanded.

    It is kind of shocking that a guy who now has a higher salary cap hit than Sidney Crosby wasn't selected for his country's Olympic team, as a roster player.  He should be on the top pairing for any team at that pay grade.  Again, I don't think this is some freakish anomaly -- I think that coaches don't respect his defending all that much.

    I think Subban will be overpaid.  I still think he'll be really really good, and might help the Habs win, but as a Bruin fan I am comforted that he'll still be overpaid.

    I don't think that about Doughty, Keith or Chara.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: A Different Look At Finances

    In response to Fletcher1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Man, some of the negatives about Price and Subban here seem goofy to me.  They are both awesome players that any team would want.  I think you can only really be critical when comparing them to top of the league salaries, or in this case, the Vezina-Norris combo in Rask-Chara.

    I don't think there's much criticism for Price that makes sense, except that maybe, like Rask, he hasn't shown he can lead a team through a 6-week playoff run and win it all.  I think Rask was a little bit better last year, as evidenced by the Vezina.  Not much though, and Price deserves credit for the Olympic performance.

    I think that the difference between Chara and Subban still lies in the body of work.  As much as we have seen of Subban, we haven't seen enough to know if he's a legit $9 million dollar man.  I think he isn't.

    Subban does some things to justify the contract -- game breaking talent, speed, skating, he can hit, outlet passes are good, can carry the puck, and has shown a habit of burying his slap shot in desperate moments.

    But, there are some items that give you pause, and the Habs are now hoping he can work them out, after the huge contract signing, not before.

    I think it is a concern that he isn't used much at all shorthanded.  A #1 defensemen with that contract should be trusted in all situations.  I think the reason is not to save his energy either -- it's because he's not that great of a defender when staying in position is important.  Frankly, he's out of position a lot, but makes up for it with his skating most of the time.  Tough to do that shorthanded.

    It is kind of shocking that a guy who now has a higher salary cap hit than Sidney Crosby wasn't selected for his country's Olympic team, as a roster player.  He should be on the top pairing for any team at that pay grade.  Again, I don't think this is some freakish anomaly -- I think that coaches don't respect his defending all that much.

    I think Subban will be overpaid.  I still think he'll be really really good, and might help the Habs win, but as a Bruin fan I am comforted that he'll still be overpaid.

    I don't think that about Doughty, Keith or Chara.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree with what you're saying here.  I'm not saying Price or Subban are bad players. I'm simply saying that they're not as good as Rask and Chara.  In the case of Price he's somewhat close, though Price has had some real rough moments in his career so far.  In the case of Subban it's nowhere close, in particular when you factor salary.  With Chara you get the game's best defender, a guy that neutralizes every team's top player and a guy who can put up 40+ points... not to mention the leagues most feared physical presence - all for 7 million.  In Subban you get an average defender who is in the top-10 on offence putting up 50+points.  He can hit vulnerable opponents and take punishment, but is hardly feared and flops when challenged.  You get that for an NHL top-5 9 million.  For me Subban's a great #2 D that can lead a pp for 4-6 million tops, provided you can keep his in-fighting and attitude under control.

    I feel like many (including those involved with his joke of a contract) have forgotten that Subban was benched multiple times even just last year by the habs for poor play.  Eliminate the Bruins in a 7 game series and you're Bobby Orr. 

     

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